Start and end of service: Running empty or in service to and from depot

[greenline712]

I'm not a mod, but found the detailed explanation fascinating

You're very welcome!!

To add another route into the mix . . . Route 140 (before the truncation at Hayes from the north) had a few runnings (boards) that started and finished at Heathrow. The drivers were complaining that they were leaving passengers behind through Yeading at 0500-0600 in the morning (when the base frequency was every 10 minutes). By running these trips in service, I was able to boost the frequency to every 7-8 minutes at barely any cost (the dead-run route was pretty much normal line of route from South Harrow to Heathrow, but I still ran them in service from Harrow Weald Garage anyway).

In the evening, they had to come back dead, as otherwise the spells exceeded 5:30 driving time. Route 140 route was awful to compile . . . some duties just couldn't cover more than two rounders in a duty!! I would build in 45 minute non-breaks to get over the 5:30 / 8:30 rule every day . . . the drivers liked it as they had effectively an extra paid relief break!! {The rule is that a driver may drive up to 8:30 in a spell as long as they have breaks totalling 45 minutes within the spell. In Metroline, this was applied as a break of at least 30 minutes plus other stand time that was guaranteed to total 45 minutes.}

This was another route where, at every (5-year) tender, I had to remove the extra service trips, rebalance the frequency, win the tender and put the extra trips back in again!! I recall on one instance, that TfL asked me which were the extra trips, as I'd disguised them so well that they couldn't select them!! Happy days!!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Just wondering if this fascination for registering placement trips is a reflection of when the claiming of fuel duty rebate was dependent on runs being registered. It meant you ended up with some really wacky routes in order to claim the FDR.

The most noteworthy was the Chesterfield to Ongar service that ran on a Saturday night. I think it was originally used as a means of rotating the vehicles through planned service schedules before East Midland had local facilities in Essex (so a sort of positioning journey), and then continued as a link between Head Office and Essex for sending documentation, etc. I also remember that United had some market day journeys between Bedale and Leyburn (Tues and Fri) that were operated by Richmond depot that had the positioning journeys registered to they became massive circular routes Richmond - Bedale - Leyburn - Richmond (and reverse) - not many 30 mile circular routes exist!

One of more curious things recently has been the 172/376 in Somerset. Wells depot operate the two routes - 376 Street/Wells to Bristol and 172 Bath - Midsomer Norton - Bristol. There are 3/4 positioning journeys at the start/finish of the day from Wells to/from Midsomer Norton for the 172 running onward to Bristol. These were numbered as 172a (I think) but they've now been numbered as 376a. So you can stand in Wells bus station at 0530 and have two buses (376 and 376a) both screened as Bristol but one takes 25 mins longer. It's a bit silly.

 

[greenline712]

The most noteworthy was the Chesterfield to Ongar service that ran on a Saturday night. I think it was originally used as a means of rotating the vehicles through planned service schedules before East Midland had local facilities in Essex (so a sort of positioning journey), and then continued as a link between Head Office and Essex for sending documentation, etc.

It also became a means of rotating staff!! East Midland could never recruit successfully in Essex, so volunteer drivers were rotated weekly via the "garage" journey. Presumably they stayed in digs during the week. Did the return journey run on Sunday evenings?? I can't recall now . . .

Yes . . . service positioning journeys did attract Fuel Duty Rebate, whereas dead positioning journeys didn't. If your route was marginally profitable, then an extra few quid might make the difference (as long as the cost didn't increase more, of course!).

 

[MotCO]

The most noteworthy was the Chesterfield to Ongar service that ran on a Saturday night.

I wonder if they ever carried any real passengers (as opposed to staff on transfer duties)? I wouldn't fancy doing the whole journey on a Bristol RE if I recall correctly.

 

[moonarrow458]

To answer some of the points raised by moonarrow458:

Route 43: Guilty as charged, M'Lud!! When I worked at Metroline as the Schedules Manager, I had a dislike of buses running dead on Central London routes, especially if they could add to the overall service. At the time (early 2000s?), TfL didn't have a lot of expertise in planning timetables, and if we could add such trips in for no extra cost, we would be allowed to do so. If you look at the schedules from these times, there were NO dead trips to/from London Bridge . . . the basic schedule required them, but I ran them in service and hid the 10 minutes extra driver cost per trip in the basic tender bid . . . so TfL did pay a little something, but in the scheme of things, barely 5/8ths of nothing!!

The Friern Barnet trips are something different . . . TfL require a bus past Highgate Station northbound every (say) 6 minutes between 07:30 and 08:30, but because HT Garage is at Archway, the extra trips required can start there . . . the alternative would be buses leaving London Bridge every 2-3 minutes at 07:00, with extra inbound trips, and 3 extra LB trips costs one extra driver.

Route 237: Also Guilty!! Back in Armchair days, when Metroline bought the company, buses ran dead to/from Shepherds Bush and Hounslow Heath, 'cos that was what TfL specified. When I got hold of the schedule, I ran as many as possible in service . . . again, the extra cost was miniscule, and I suspect that no-one at TfL noticed!!

Route 189 and Route 4: These simply avoid starting the bus at the northern terminal . . . the saving on the schedule is tiny, but once they're there, they can stay!!

I'll just make the point that TfL usually don't like these short journeys, as it makes the tendering of the route difficult, and (for example) if Route 237 was won by London United from Hounslow Garage, then some of the short journeys would need to be withdrawn, which would inconvenience passengers. Indeed, when the route is tendered, the specification will withdraw the shorts, to make the base specification to all operators . . . the successful operator will have the choice of re-instating them. For that reason, most operators don't bother . . . it means recompiling the schedule to add them back in, which all takes time.

Sorry, mods, for the rambling, but honestly . . . the questions asked demanded a detailed reply.

Thank you very much for your detailed explanations and insight, its much appreciated and its nice to hear of someone actually having been willing to put passengers needs first, and as i say those shorts on the 237 really are needed.

I imagine then its a similar situation on the Willesden bus garage routes 6, 52, 98 where there is next to no dead running to/from Victoria and Holborn, meanwhile the Putney routes run by Go Ahead (14, 22, 74) all have a fair bit of dead running to and from Central London. So i guess as you allude to it depends on the willingness of the operator and schedulers at those operators to go the extra mile so to speak.

 

[greenline712]

Thank you very much for your detailed explanations and insight, its much appreciated and its nice to hear of someone actually having been willing to put passengers needs first, and as i say those shorts on the 237 really are needed.

I imagine then its a similar situation on the Willesden bus garage routes 6, 52, 98 where there is next to no dead running to/from Victoria and Holborn, meanwhile the Putney routes run by Go Ahead (14, 22, 74) all have a fair bit of dead running to and from Central London. So i guess as you allude to it depends on the willingness of the operator and schedulers at those operators to go the extra mile so to speak.

Actually, not so. You'd be surprised how many routes into Central London, even with route and terminal changes, haven't been revised that much. Even though Route 6 has a different terminal now, the basic schedule is unchanged. Route 98 is the same setup. Route 52 had a couple of journeys that ran into Victoria and returned as Route N52. Even though the N52 variant is no more, you can still see the changes in running time that denote a former N52 journey.

Sometimes TfL operates logically, sometimes not!

 

[markymark2000]

Thank you @greenline712 for your explanations of how you did things. I wish we had more schedulers like you doing proactive things like that. You've saved a shed load of dead mileage and provided a better service for passengers. All at minimal-no additional cost (depending on the situation)

 

[Roger1973]

It also became a means of rotating staff!! East Midland could never recruit successfully in Essex, so volunteer drivers were rotated weekly via the "garage" journey. Presumably they stayed in digs during the week. Did the return journey run on Sunday evenings?? I can't recall now . . .

I understand that the southbound journey was Sunday evening - and not sure if northbound was Friday evening or Saturday evening.

I was also led to understand at the time that another angle to it was that it provided work for drivers based in Nottinghamshire, so avoided redundancies.

 

[Deerfold]

The early morning staff journeys to Halifax's First depots (80-84 on various loops through surrounding towns and villages, some being served twice on different routes) ran for decades between 0315-0500, a little later on Sundays, and were all included in a public timetable. I never actually caught them as I'd heard of people not being allowed to board and the only reasons I'd have for catching them it would have been essential to travel early.

I think they got rid of them being public services when licensing laws meant that clubbers may have been attracted to them (though that's just my supposition) - though it may have just been the freedon to change them more easily that appealed.

 

[Roger1973]

Arriva / Green Line 757 (Luton - London) appears to have a few bus workings that run dead from (presumably) Luton / Dunstable depot to London Victoria in the early morning - the half hourly headway from London (presume aimed at people catching early flights from Luton Airport) starts while the overnight southbound service is still hourly. Following a few buses on Bus Times seems to bear this out.

I make that a 34 mile dead run.

Staegcoach Bedford's MK1 (V-shaped route, Bedford - Luton - Milton Keynes) has a few buses that appear to run dead direct Bedford - Milton Keynes or vice versa at the start or end of day (in theory it would be possible for them to run as extra short journeys on the direct X5 (main service is Bedford - Oxford via Milton Keynes) but probably very little point in doing so.)

And their recent 'LAX' service Luton - Luton Airport is a single bus, but that must run dead from / to Bedford depot each day.

Before the route was formed, I'm not sure if the 99 (Milton Keynes - Luton Airport) did dead runs from / to Bedford at both ends, or if any buses worked in service as 81 (Luton - Bedford) or short journeys on the X5.

 

[Simon75]

High Peak 114 Ashbourne to Derby runs dead from Dove Holes (Buxton) about 25 miles, with one journey running dead Derby to Dove Holes alin the evening (40 miles)

 

[SCH117X]

East Yorkshires working of the Ripon-Knaresborough/York services has some werid dead / in service runs. When Transdev operated it they ran a through York-Ripon-Knaresborugh service and orignaily operated York-Knaresborough direct services to get a bus to and from Knaresborough but then altered those to dead runs.
East Yorkshire work a bus to Knaresborough by running it service from York as far as Kirk Hammerton (SX) and then 4 minutes later a bus that has come dead from Pocklington forms a working from Kirk Hammerton to Boroughbridge (on the route to Ripon). A through York- Boroughbridge bus more logical with that going to Knaresborough running dead. In the evening with what is a 2 hour interval service during the day their is a Ripon-Green Hammerton service that the goes dead to Pocklington, a following service 15 minutes later that starts at Boroughbridge and does run through to York which from the next village, Kirk Hammerton 20 miniutes there is a another bus to York that has come dead from Knaresborough.

 

[Hyebone]

High Peak 114 Ashbourne to Derby runs dead from Dove Holes (Buxton) about 25 miles, with one journey running dead Derby to Dove Holes alin the evening (40 miles)

Why this service isn't operated by Notts & Derby I do not know...

 

[Christian Schm]

FWIW Wales hasn’t got BSOG anymore either, it’s called Bus Services Support Grant, paid by Welsh Government to regional lead authorities, who then pay operators in their area. For the Cardiff Capital Region Monmouthshire does the admin, though decisions are taken with consent of other authorities transport managers and after consultation with operators.

The schemes must all follow WG guidance, which says it is available for live bus-km only. So no dead mileage, and nothing for cancelled/curtailed trips. There are also some compulsory standards that operator must fulfil. (Ask WG for a copy of the guidance if you want to see them.)

Beyond that regions have some freedom. The CCR pays at four different rates - gold/silver/bronze for bus operators plus one for CT operators. Gold pys about 2p/km more than silver which is again about 2p/km more than bronze. There are further standards for which operator can gain points, enough points earns silver or gold standard.

I am not sure about other regions, but I think north Wales only pays BSSG for commercial mileage, for contracted it is incorporated into contract payments. It may be the same for Powys though they may not actually have any commercial mileage.

 

[JD2168]

High Peak 114 Ashbourne to Derby runs dead from Dove Holes (Buxton) about 25 miles, with one journey running dead Derby to Dove Holes alin the evening (40 miles)

The one that runs from Derby to Dove Holes, would it be better to run it in service as a TransPeak instead?

 

[WibbleWobble]

The one that runs from Derby to Dove Holes, would it be better to run it in service as a TransPeak instead?

Could be due to driver's hours - you'd be looking at an extra hour compared with running dead. Plus it saves on wages, which although isn't much for a day, racks up over the course of a year!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Could be due to driver's hours - you'd be looking at an extra hour compared with running dead. Plus it saves on wages, which although isn't much for a day, racks up over the course of a year!

Exactly! That’ll be £6k a year