Starting short

[Ian99]

It seems agreed on this forum that it is okay to start short - e.g. have a ticket from Sydenham to Reigate for example but get on at Penge West (that's one stop towards Reigate from Sydenham).

Would it therefore be okay to start short on a Boundary zone 3 to Reigate ticket? (the Boundary is between Penge West and Sydenham)

 

[Old Timer]

Ian,

There is no, and never has been, any general restriction on starting short of origin provided the particular type of ticket does not expressly prohibit this.

Certain reduced price tickets as a condition of issue do not allow a journey to be started at other than the originating station. Generally these will be tickets that offer a special reduction against the normal fare. If you join a train short of the originating point with one of these tickets then the ticket is not valid and you will be treated as travelling without a valid ticket.

If you purchased a ticket from a station further out, with the intention of joining at an intermediate station because this would be cheaper than the cost of a ticket for the journey you actuall ARE undertaking, then this is regarded as being fare deliberate premeditated evasion.

 

[Greenback]

I assume you mean with a ticket that doesn't allow that, rather than with a ticket that allows starting short under the NCoC??

 

[Old Timer]

Yes, that is correct. In such cases the correct fare would have been exceed so no problem with that. It is an individual choice as to where to start in those circumstances.

Deliberately avoiding the payment of the correct fare for the journey being undertaken is another matter.

 

[John @ home]

Yes, that is correct. In such cases the correct fare would have been exceed so no problem with that.

The fare between the two stations actually travelled would not necessarily have been exceeded. We discussed Middlesbrough - Carlisle fares last week in this thread. Contrast Middlesbrough - Carlisle with Northallerton - Carlisle. Here are the current fares.

Middlesbrough - Carlisle Standard Anytime Return (SOR) route Any Permitted £22.80
Northallerton - Carlisle Standard Anytime Return (SOR) route Any Permitted £31.70.

These are both full fares, that is they are the most expensive Standard Class tickets available. The Routeing Guide shows that Middlesbrough - Carlisle is permitted via Northallerton (map combination MM+TP, among others) and Northallerton - Carlisle is permitted via Middlesbrough (eg. map combination ER+HX).

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage make clear that both tickets are valid for break of journey and you may start, or break and resume, a journey ... at any intermediate station [and] end your journey ... before the destination shown on the ticket.

Anomalies such as this have not always been so extreme. The September 2005 - January 2006 Fares Manual shows that return full fares were £18.90 Middlesbrough - Carlisle and £21.10 Northallerton - Carlisle. Relatively few people bothered to search out a cheaper alternative when there was only £2.20 to be saved. But one fare was allocated to Northern and the other to TPE. Their contrasting fare policies has led to the difference increasing from £2.20 to £8.90 in less than five years.

With many thousands of these anomalies, and both the number and the magnitude tending to increase three times a year at each fares revision, it is not surprising that more and more people are seeking out wholly legitimate means to reduce their cost of travelling.

 

[Old Timer]

John @ home
Where properly permitted then there is no issue, as I said.

Until we go back to distance related pricing, such anomalies which occur under this crazy pricing regime and which you have highlighted in this case, will continue to the benefit ultimately of no-one.

 

[John @ home]

I agree that the current system ultimately benefits no-one.

 

[moonrakerz]

I agree that the current system ultimately benefits no-one.

I would disagree there............

I am retired, have a "old gits" railcard, can travel at anytime of the day and can pick a day to travel to suit.
As far as I am concerned, this is of GREAT benefit to me, I can get the most incredible value tickets.

However, before I retired, when I was having to be in London (say) by 0900 and come back at 1700, I was appalled by the price of the tickets.

I would not argue that the present system is not crazy however:

To prove that, here are the fares from my local station to Waterloo.

Advance 1st Ret: £22.40 (lowest)
Advance Std Ret: £12.20 (lowest)
Anytime Std Ret: £154
Gets better !
Anytime 1st Ret with Travelcard: £107
Off peak 1st Ret: £130 (limited trains)
Anytime 1st Ret WITHOUT Travelcard: £229

The anytime tickets are all for tomorrow morning.

CRAZEEEEE !!! - but great for me............

 

[John @ home]

I agree that the current system ultimately benefits no-one.

I would disagree there.

I was taking the longer view.

I too take advantage of the very cheap tickets. On Saturday, I'll be off on a day trip from Leeds to London at £9 each way. That's less than 5p a mile.

But the current over-complex system fails to maximise the number of passengers and does not leave most of them feeling they have had a good deal. The huge number of private companies in the industry, all giving top priority to extracting their target percentage of turnover as profit, means that far too little is left to improve the passenger's experience.

The fares system means that many are ripped off and even those who learn enough about the system to avoid that are forced to spend excessive amounts of time in journey planning. The boss may be pleased that I can show him how to save more than half of the £187 peak return fare to Bristol by advising him to buy a ticket to Highbridge instead. But it takes half an hour for me to be sure that Highbridge is the best place, and next week's business trip will have a different destination, causing the whole process to begin again.

All this means that the industry falls into disrepute and at this time of retrenchment the cuts will be far more savage than they would need to be for an efficient industry.

So I will continue to enjoy very cheap leisure travel, and to give advice on avoiding the most expensive fares. But overall the system does not benefit me. And I suspect that, over the medium term, it doesn't benefit moonrakerz either.

 

[moonrakerz]

But the current over-complex system fails maximise the number of passengers

This is the root cause of the over complex system. There are trains that are jam packed for 4 hrs a day, the rest of the day they are running round/sitting in a siding empty.
The is absolutely NO requirement to "maximise" the number of passengers during the peak, there is a requirement to try and get some revenue outside of the peak. The best way(?) is to sell seats during the quiet times at bargain basement prices - this will gain some revenue.

It does produce some strange results at times - but I cannot see a better way; if I could, I would patent it and sell the rights and make a fortune - then I could afford to travel by train during peak hours !!