Station announcements, station staff and train operation question

[Spongthrush]

After a rather chaotic experience yesterday AM Winchester-Waterloo my wife asked me too many questions that I can't, with basic knowledge of the rail system, answer, so...

...disruption yesterday due a failed train at Redbridge. We were on an Advance ticket so pitched up a little early. As our booked train was showing 53 mins late, we asked the SWR guy by the barriers if we had to wait for our delayed (but booked) train, or could we get on anything*. The SWR guy didn't, or couldn't answer the question. *I assume that we had to stick with SWR and couldn't use XC. My times below are approx and only for example.

1. If holding an Advance ticket for the e.g. 1048 Winchester-Waterloo, can one travel on a service departing around that time or must one wait until it arrives an hour late?

Now I get there's some jiggerypokery required to recover some sort of normality after a problem, but yesterday the recorded announcements and train indicator were telling us about the next direct train to Waterloo being e.g. the 0948 departing at 1040. Which would be fine if it actually stopped and a shame as it was half empty. The next train, the delayed 1018 was then announced as the next train to Waterloo but only 5 coaches, causing those with pushchairs some angst as platform was heaving by now. Thankfully, loads of people exited the train, everyone piled on, to be told to get off as the train was out of service (and reversing it turned out), the train indicator and announcements still not in synch with reality telling us the train was headed to Waterloo. The next train was announced as 'not stopping at this station' but did.

2. Why are the passenger announcements and train indicators not linked to whatever system the crews use? Clearly the train operating staff have been told where they're going.

3. How on earth is a passenger to know what is going on, 'in the old days' someone would make a manual announcement, have such staff been automated?

4. Are the ticket barrier staff, who look like the go to (only) person to ask actually completely in the dark too? I'm guessing that the public expect them to know, but maybe that's not their job description? If so, I feel sorry for them being the target of abuse by disgruntled passengers.

thanks!
Ian

 

[FGW_DID]

Sounds like a pretty fluid and fast moving situation. It takes a while for everything to sync up.
I’ve been in the situation of having just got off the phone 5 mins ago, being passed the details of Plan A, only to see something completely different happen!

As for Staff making announcements, if there is any, they should be able to make manual announcements. Quite a few places now have the ability to make announcements whilst stood out on the platform but of course this also relies on them having the up to date info as well.

To be honest, the Gateline, whilst they will be the first (only) people you encounter, they are probably just as in the dark and have no current info but that shouldn’t stop them at the very least explaining that there is disruption and when the info is available it will be passed on as soon as it’s there.

Staff can only give whatever up to date info they have, if there is none then there is none! Totally agree, there is no need for the abuse they get.

 

[43066]

1. If holding an Advance ticket for the e.g. 1048 Winchester-Waterloo, can one travel on a service departing around that time or must one wait until it arrives an hour late?

The conditions allow you to travel on your next available service (ie that train or a later one) but in practice you’ll often be allowed to join one that’s technically an earlier train running late.

2. Why are the passenger announcements and train indicators not linked to whatever system the crews use? Clearly the train operating staff have been told where they're going.

Don’t assume that! Communication isn’t as good as it could be, partly because on train crew (drivers especially) won’t necessarily have access to the same information. Drivers in particular are not allowed to use electronic devices when driving so passengers will often know more than they do.

3. How on earth is a passenger to know what is going on, 'in the old days' someone would make a manual announcement, have such staff been automated?

4. Are the ticket barrier staff, who look like the go to (only) person to ask actually completely in the dark too? I'm guessing that the public expect them to know, but maybe that's not their job description? If so, I feel sorry for them being the target of abuse by disgruntled passengers.

As above really, gateline staff won’t necessarily know in a timely fashion when it’s a developing situation.

 

[XAM2175]

1. If holding an Advance ticket for the e.g. 1048 Winchester-Waterloo, can one travel on a service departing around that time or must one wait until it arrives an hour late?

The conditions allow you to travel on your next available service (ie that train or a later one) but in practice you’ll often be allowed to join one that’s technically an earlier train running late.

Noting that officially it does have to be the same operator, so you were correct to rule out XC, but again in practice if you ask for permission it's often granted.

 

[357]

Don’t assume that! Communication isn’t as good as it could be, partly because on train crew (drivers especially) won’t necessarily have access to the same information. Drivers in particular are not allowed to use electronic devices when driving so passengers will often know more than they do.

Quite often in my previous job I'd get stopped in a platform with a red, or stop and question a route at a junction, and it would be the first time I've been told anything is even wrong!

I've had signallers call me back after getting an SG to ask me why I'm not in the other end of the train a few times too.

 

[fandroid]

I was at Brockenhurst travelling to Basingstoke at around 4pm last Saturday. There had been a fatality in the late morning between Southampton Airport and Southampton Central and everything was thrown into total chaos.

Things were sort of recovering by the time we wanted a train. There was a staff member who told us that the first train for Basingstoke would be on platform 1. However, both platform indicators and automated pa announcements kept telling everyone that it would arrive on platform 2, with the first one on platform 1 being a fast Waterloo service that would miss out many of its scheduled stops. These announcements carried on until our train came into sight, then suddenly changed. The staff member obviously had no way of doing a pa announcement to counter the misinformation, and relied on people asking him. If staff knew, a reasonable time in advance, why wasn't the automated system corrected at the same time?

 

[DelW]

I encountered a similarly chaotic situation at Ramsgate last week, where the sequence of trains showing on the departure boards was clearly impossible*. Quite a crowd of passengers realised this and were milling around in some confusion.

In the end the only correct information came from a platform dispatcher, who had (and was using) a radio to a supervisor or control desk. She didn't appear to be able to make a PA announcement though. I think the screens were corrected just before the first train arrived.

In my experience gateline staff rarely have any more information than is available to knowledgeable passengers.

*Two trains were shown as departing from the same platform in opposite directions one minute apart, despite that platform already being occupied by a train that wouldn't depart until after both had gone.

 

[markymark2000]

I've seen some great ones in Bridgend as the screens can't work out if a train has been looped just to the east of the station. Often, if anything, this is the Maesteg train and so during disruption, you see the Maesteg train showing on the boards getting slowly later, then 'delayed' and then when the train (normally Swansea) gets signalled into platform 1, then it updates to show the Swansea service as being next but this often only when the train is about to enter the platform. It's quite late to swap because the signalling system isn't talking to the passenger information system. It's quite interesting to watch (as long as it's not your train that it's happening to). My best way of working is just to keep an eye on open train times or Traksy as they will give you the signalling maps and show you where the train is routed in to and then you can work out which platform you need to be on. But of course use this information in conjunction with any other disruption information such as if the train is part cancelled or going to be further delayed.

 

[Parallel]

It happens at Bath Spa a lot too - if the stopper is running late, the CIS system assumes the London Paddington train will arrive first and announces it. Staff usually cut it off but it repeats it about two or three times. Only when the 2 or 3 car DMU rolls onto the platform does the system realise!

 

[Horizon22]

Such situations are normally very fast moving with controllers having to consider 7-8 things all at once, liaising with multiple parties (NR/TOC control, signaller, crew, resource managers, depots, duty managers, fleet controllers, fellow controllers [including information teams] that there is so much to consider. Also the nature of the incident can vary wildly for a whole range of factors. Staff understandably won’t want to give out wrong information or may be cautious, knowing that information can change at short-notice.


Information generally gets cascaded but the nature of the beast is I’ve never it seen done perfectly anywhere. It is why there is normally a note about “cancellations, delays and short-notice alterations”.

Without manual intervention of all delays (an arduous task during severe disruption) there will always be slight inaccuracies. The worst thing automated systems understand is platform changes; if not manually input only once the service is immediately routed into a platform will the CIS kick in.

 

[321446]

Spot on by Horizon.

The situation is normally still developing until the moment it is resolved. It is generally not possible to get firm information out to staff in the timescale expected by passengers. NOT a criticism of anyone, staff or passengers. Just a fact.

Passengers want to know where to go to continue their journey, station staff want to know what to tell them and other staff. Drivers want to know what/where they are expected to do/go. Signallers want to know what they are being asked to unravel/knit is feasible.

Takes time. And time is the only thing that is still moving. A PAUSE button would be a delight.

 

[fandroid]

Such situations are normally very fast moving with controllers having to consider 7-8 things all at once, liaising with multiple parties (NR/TOC control, signaller, crew, resource managers, depots, duty managers, fleet controllers, fellow controllers [including information teams] that there is so much to consider. Also the nature of the incident can vary wildly for a whole range of factors. Staff understandably won’t want to give out wrong information or may be cautious, knowing that information can change at short-notice.


Information generally gets cascaded but the nature of the beast is I’ve never it seen done perfectly anywhere. It is why there is normally a note about “cancellations, delays and short-notice alterations”.

Without manual intervention of all delays (an arduous task during severe disruption) there will always be slight inaccuracies. The worst thing automated systems understand is platform changes; if not manually input only once the service is immediately routed into a platform will the CIS kick in.

Thanks. That totally explains my Brockenhurst experience. The only obvious way around that is to give platform staff the ability to override the CIS.

 

[Horizon22]

Thanks. That totally explains my Brockenhurst experience. The only obvious way around that is to give platform staff the ability to override the CIS.

Which some stations (or hubs) do have. But allowing all staff the same access everywhere to override the system could open a whole can of worms.

 

[fandroid]

Which some stations (or hubs) do have. But allowing all staff the same access everywhere to override the system could open a whole can of worms.

I understand that. My home station of Basingstoke has a staffed "control desk" right on the busiest platforms. It makes sense for that staff member to be the only one who can override the CIS. But as far as I could see Brockenhurst had only the one staff member in place, and they obviously were in communication with those in control, so them being able to override the CIS would have reduced a lot of passenger anxiety. (It was fairly busy)

 

[NeilCr]

I encountered a similarly chaotic situation at Ramsgate last week, where the sequence of trains showing on the departure boards was clearly impossible*. Quite a crowd of passengers realised this and were milling around in some confusion.

In the end the only correct information came from a platform dispatcher, who had (and was using) a radio to a supervisor or control desk. She didn't appear to be able to make a PA announcement though. I think the screens were corrected just before the first train arrived.

In my experience gateline staff rarely have any more information than is available to knowledgeable passengers.

*Two trains were shown as departing from the same platform in opposite directions one minute apart, despite that platform already being occupied by a train that wouldn't depart until after both had gone.

Ramsgate is my local station!

The thing I've found there is that they change arrival platforms at the very last minute on occasions and - as you suggest - there doesn't seem to be the capacity to make a "station announcement". This can result in a bit of a frenzy - especially if you have to go through the underpass in short order. The staff have to try and round people up as best they can

I was on Canterbury West yesterday. There were delays following a level crossing issue and conflicting information showing between the screens and the southeastern app about the train I was waiting for. The app said it had left Ashford - the screen said it was still there..

It sorted itself out and there was about a 15 minute delay so no biggie but it didn't feel very organised. I do appreciate that gateline staff are unlikely to have more information but there was a bit of a sense of leaving the passenger to it

As a general comment I find the staff at Ramsgate (ticket office and platform) really friendly and helpful.

 

[Trainguy34]

I was on Canterbury West yesterday. As a general comment I find the staff at Ramsgate (ticket office and platform) really friendly and helpful.

I was there 30 mins ago for Bahamas! I can second the comment about Ramsgate.