"Stations to be re-designed to prevent death by suicide" - Proposed Solutions from Network Rail

[superkev]

Presumably somebody's looked into whether stations or other lineside locations are suicide spots.
The cost and inconvience of motorised doors and fences would be huge. Better spent on metal health which in my experience is pretty poor. Personal view.
K

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Box-ticking exercise. The report summarises just about all the options available to station designers given a blank canvas but in practice there is almost never such an opportunity. Some of the cheap and easy ideas will be implemented where it's possible to do so but the big stuff won't happen. It would be much better to encourage platform staff (where they actually exist) to spend far more time "patrolling" their platforms between trains rather than retiring to their cozy office. Much is made of DOO allowing on-train staff to be more visible; I would suggest the same argument goes for the platform staff but without any need to downgrade their job to do so.

As for improved sightlines it's already been done at Manchester Piccadilly 13/14 where all the buildings were removed and an additional red line painted behind the yellow one. When it's busy the dispatchers bark at everyone to get behind the red line and from their POV it doubtless improves safety. OTOH just down the line at Oxford Road an additional shelter was built on 2/3 with the design effort all about fitting in with the listed main building. I think some posters in this thread have seriously over-reacted to this story.

 

[theageofthetra]

Doesn't help when NR contractors continually leave gates unlocked when fitted at the ends of platforms or the gates are so poorly designed as in the ones at London Bridge that they blow open in anything other than a light wind.

 

[yorksrob]

The article doesn't suggest that (just implementing these kind of things at new stations, seeing where it'd be practical to do so at existing ones, not knocking down every old station)

It's a bit grey on that - I think the phrase is "limited" changes to be made at existing buildings. I'm worried that this might just be an additional factor nudging railway companies to demolish that waiting room, rather than maintaining it.

 

[trainmania100]

It's going to be a waste of money, there will be other ways to commit suicide

 

[Parallel]

Hmm, if somebody wants to take their own life, some platform barriers aren’t going to stop them. Can we not spend money trying to help people with their problems? Could areas with a particularly high suicide levels have Samaritans or something similar actually on site?

 

[bangor-toad]

This was something I ran a research project in a couple of years ago. Here's something from the article that stands out for me:

Ian Stevens, head of suicide prevention at Network Rail, said adjustments to train stations may sound insignificant but could still save lives.

“If you turn station seating at right angles to the track, potentially suicidal passengers have the got to make the decision to turn 90 degrees and walk towards the railway,” he told The Independent.

“Now that may sound completely insignificant, but it is significant, because we know the more forms of intervention we can put in somebody's way, the less likely they are to take their own life.”

Before I got involved in this, I had never understood how significant these little details are. For example, as siad above being forced to make a turn between standing and walking to a platform edge really does make a difference compared to just getting up and walking forward. It made no sense to me at all to start with but actualy interview evidence and a bunch of senior professors all seem to agree.

It appears that for many situations where a suicide is possible that if the momentary urge can be overcome then the person pulls back from wanting to go through with it then. Many of the measures suggested will help in dealing with that moment. Is it a "cure" for mental health issues? Of course not but it lets there be a tomorrow to work on it. Sadly, if someone is 100% committed to ending thier life then they will find a way and none of these issues will make any difference but these cases are surprisingly rare.

(I don't work on the railways and mental health isn't my area - I did however see the horror of the outcome of a platform suicide and I was very pleased to be able to help other researchers work on how to prevent this.)

I am very supportive of using these small measures as mentioend as I truely believe it will make a positive difference to a a large number of people and that they only small costs which in many cases will be part of a maintainence cycle anyway.

Stay safe
Mr Toad

 

[PeterC]

Presumably somebody's looked into whether stations or other lineside locations are suicide spots.
The cost and inconvience of motorised doors and fences would be huge. Better spent on metal health which in my experience is pretty poor. Personal view.
K

When I first commuted into Liverpool Street in the 70s the "incidents" always seemed to be at Brentwood or Goodmayes. This, of course, matched the locations of the two big mental hospitals at Warley and Barley Lane.

What effect has the closing of the old asylums sich as Warley had on the numbers and distribution of suicides?

 

[radamfi]

Is there a major rail using country that has a low level of rail suicides compared to the UK?

 

[Clip]

And how do we know whether or not flashing lights on station platforms would be distracting to drivers, especially in the hours of darkness?

I would hazard a guess that they would only operate when someone was standing by them - most people in those hours wouldnt really have any need to be at the extremes of the platforms anyway

 

[DanNCL]

Total waste of money, impracticable in just about every way possible, and a ridiculous idea.

 

[bramling]

When I first commuted into Liverpool Street in the 70s the "incidents" always seemed to be at Brentwood or Goodmayes. This, of course, matched the locations of the two big mental hospitals at Warley and Barley Lane.

What effect has the closing of the old asylums sich as Warley had on the numbers and distribution of suicides?

The old hotspots don’t seem to apply as much nowadays for sure. On LU places like Mile End and Tooting Broadway were well known, but this doesn’t hold true nowadays.

 

[Deepgreen]

The comments in the article about blue lighting are not accurate. It’s been incredibly effective at certain stations where fatalities have gone from being ludicrously numerous to near enough zero. Those stations certainly haven’t been rebuilt, either.

That's interesting. Are you able to share locations and figures? I was, for a long time, heavily involved with LUL station design and facilities.

 

[Clip]

It's going to be a waste of money, there will be other ways to commit suicide

There always have been and always will be but if they can further reduce the amount of suicide on the railways then it can only be a good thing and to suggest otherwise is very naive

 

[Islineclear3_1]

When I first commuted into Liverpool Street in the 70s the "incidents" always seemed to be at Brentwood or Goodmayes. This, of course, matched the locations of the two big mental hospitals at Warley and Barley Lane.

What effect has the closing of the old asylums sich as Warley had on the numbers and distribution of suicides?

I used to know the Barley lane (Goodmayes) site well; there was also a site at Woodford (Claybury) which closed in 1997 as part of Mrs Thatcher's "Care in the Community" which meant all the psychiatric patients were let out on the streets.

Nobody looks after mental health any more, there has been a rise of use of antidepressants (which can make depression worse) along with many other challenges. Now we see it with youngsters and mobile phones, people getting "dumped" on facebook, not getting many "likes", sleep disturbances and people struggling to survive on less-than-minimum wage etc....the list goes on and on.

I'm all for "the railway" doing its bit, but I can't see how a few flashing lights or turning seats around is going to deter someone determined to end it all.

 

[bb21]

I wonder of all those of you who talk about this being "expensive" and all that, how many understand how much suicides are costing Network Rail, hence the tax payers, each year under the current regime? To give you an example, one of the fatalities earlier this month on our patch cost NR a good amount over £2 million in compensation, and that isn't even remotely near the most expensive fatalities I am aware of. While not all incidents cost that much, scale it up for the number of incidents across the network each year and the money will soon stack up. That isn't even taking into account cost to other services such as the police, and the cost of psychological damage to those directly involved in the immediate aftermath of the incident, amongst others.

Suicide prevention is, and has been, high on NR's agenda for a good many years, and numerous initiatives have been actioned on with varying levels of success (some potentially debatable), this isn't going to stop if the current trend on suicide rates continues. NR are damned if they do something, like the criticisms levied on here, and damned if they don't do all they could to try and prevent such occurrences. While there is a massively complex background to these horrific incidents, simply saying "those hellbent on doing it will find a way" is not an acceptable answer for doing nothing. It is not morally, socially or politically acceptable.

I fully agree with spending more money on mental health provisions, but government (over many years so I am not taking sides here) doesn't think like that. There is a direct cost to NR of these sad incidents, hence these preventative measures are far easier to justify and have a business case for. This is also part of a wider programme to try and drive up performance on a national level, given the abhorrent current state.

I wonder what this money will be used for if not channelled into NR?! I would bet a good amount it ain't going into mental health services.

 

[LateThanNever]

Our generous tory government does not have one penny of its own money.

The choice is, paid for by increased passenger fares OR paid for by taxing people more.

Don't let them deceive you - all money is created out of thin air by the government. That's what a sovereign currency is. We all know that the government owns a bank entirely, after all prints the stuff! It uses taxes, not to pay for things, but to prevent inflation. Look at what it says on a fiver, think of how many taxes were raised before they gave £435billion plus to the City (that's roughly four years of NHS budget) paid just like that. They didn't borrow it because there was actually no one to lend it to them....
Further see here for example
http://www.progressivepulse.org/economics/welcome-to-the-money-factory/comment-page-1

 

[yorksrob]

I think it's all well and good taking small preventative actions, however we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that railway stations are places to wait and catch trains. We don't want to end up with a railway full of empty windswept platforms with little shelter and no seating because there's no room to put it latitudinally. There has to be a balance.

 

[DarloRich]

The comments in the article about blue lighting are not accurate. It’s been incredibly effective at certain stations where fatalities have gone from being ludicrously numerous to near enough zero. Those stations certainly haven’t been rebuilt, either.

Quite correct. However experts here always know best. The point of the article is missed by most

It is to offer options for future station designs which reduce opportunities for suicide which is obviously a good thing. It is NOT ( and this should be obvious to any sentient creature) suggesting a comprehensive rebuild of existing stations.

It is suggesting some mitigating items that could be built into exisiting stations. Those should be familiar to any regualr station user and which are not that intrusive.

I know experts here don't grasp the concept of the non physical barrier and the impact that forcing someone to choose to cross that barrier can have on the would be suicide but these items have a proven track record of turning people back from taking thier own life

 

[Islineclear3_1]

deleted

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Don't let them deceive you - all money is created out of thin air by the government. That's what a sovereign currency is. We all know that the government owns a bank entirely, after all prints the stuff!

So should NR go cap in hand to the Government for additional cash?

Indeed, spending on suicide prevention is a good business case - but this needs to be thought out properly and money spent wisely. I would hope that NR and our dearly trusted government would seek advice from other agencies/experts but the government does need to do more to tackle mental health at source such as reducing horrific waiting times for help/therapy. People in crisis need immediate help - not in 6 - 12 months time

 

[mmh]

So should NR go cap in hand to the Government for additional cash?

Indeed, spending on suicide prevention is a good business case - but this needs to be thought out properly and money spent wisely. I would hope that NR and our dearly trusted government would seek advice from other agencies/experts but the government does need to do more to tackle mental health at source

What makes you think that NR's head of suicide prevention isn't an expert who takes advice from others?

 

[swt class 450]

Those platform edge doors that they have on the Jubilee Line will only work if the station is solely served by one type of stock only. All different stock has doors at completely different positions so this wouldn't work at stations that are served by a variety of different stocks. I think that means that the majority of stations in the UK won't be able to use them. So it would really only work if we withdrew our entire train fleet all across the UK and introduced just one type of stock to be used on every train service in the UK (which i know will never happen). Also it would have to be built with very strong glass to be able to manage trains passing through at high speeds.

 

[Esker-pades]

Quite correct. However experts here always know best. The point of the article is missed by most

It is to offer options for future station designs which reduce opportunities for suicide which is obviously a good thing. It is NOT ( and this should be obvious to any sentient creature) suggesting a comprehensive rebuild of existing stations.

It is suggesting some mitigating items that could be built into exisiting stations. Those should be familiar to any regualr station user and which are not that intrusive.

I know experts here don't grasp the concept of the non physical barrier and the impact that forcing someone to choose to cross that barrier can have on the would be suicide but these items have a proven track record of turning people back from taking thier own life

The blue lighting study that the article mentions has not yet been proved. One study of a small group of Japanese stations gave a significant drop, but it is not a trend that has shown to be repeatable. Therefore, one cannot say that it is an effective solution/measure.

 

[LOL The Irony]

People determined to commit suicide will find other ways. Far better to throw money at improving mental health services which have steadily been cut by successive governments

This. Preach it brother!

 

[GrimShady]

Those in that frame of mind are mostly very determined. They'll always find a way.

 

[DarloRich]

This. Preach it brother!

Indeed - spend all the money we can on mental health care. However all that money only helps once someone decides to interact with such services and ask for help. Many people, especially men, DONT ever ask for help.

 

[AM9]

Those platform edge doors that they have on the Jubilee Line will only work if the station is solely served by one type of stock only. All different stock has doors at completely different positions so this wouldn't work at stations that are served by a variety of different stocks. I think that means that the majority of stations in the UK won't be able to use them. So it would really only work if we withdrew our entire train fleet all across the UK and introduced just one type of stock to be used on every train service in the UK (which i know will never happen). Also it would have to be built with very strong glass to be able to manage trains passing through at high speeds.

In addition to that, above all, the platforms need to be substantially straight. That rules half of the four Thameslink core stations, and many of the stations on the London approaches and elsewhere. Hence the suggestion of PEDs as a consideration for new build platforms. That would even rule out St Albans with it's 100mph fast lines on a sweeping curve yet a very narrow fast up platform.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

In addition to that, above all, the platforms need to be substantially straight. That rules half of the four Thameslink core stations, and many of the stations on the London approaches and elsewhere. Hence the suggestion of PEDs as a consideration for new build platforms. That would even rule out St Albans with it's 100mph fast lines on a sweeping curve yet a very narrow fast up platform.

They have PEDS on the curved platforms on Paris Metro line 1 at Bastille.

 

[Bevan Price]

I wonder if it would make at least some stop and think what they were doing if there was some type of advertising campaign (posters, TV ads., etc.) asking people "Have you ever considered what it is like to be a train driver seeing somebody jump in front of your train and realise that you have no chance of stopping ?"