Steel by rail from Portbury (near Bristol) to Port Talbot - Why?

[Envoy]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #10 originally in this thread.

I wonder where the steel originated and why it could not have been produced at Port Talbot before they closed the blast furnaces? I also wonder why it is not shipped straight into the dock at Port Talbot?

 

[John R]

I wonder where the steel originated and why it could not have been produced at Port Talbot before they closed the blast furnaces? I also wonder why it is not shipped straight into the dock at Port Talbot?

Who knows, but it’s hardly relevant to the thread. We know there’s freight on the branch, and given the Port Company paid for the reinstatement of the branch 20 years ago, it has every right to operate it.

 

[geordieblue]

I wonder where the steel originated and why it could not have been produced at Port Talbot before they closed the blast furnaces? I also wonder why it is not shipped straight into the dock at Port Talbot?

I wonder where the steel originated and why it could not have been produced at Port Talbot before they closed the blast furnaces? I also wonder why it is not shipped straight into the dock at Port Talbot?

I’m not sure where the steel comes from but Port Talbot needs a continuous supply of slab for the next few years. I’m not sure how they could have stockpiled three years’ worth of slab before closing the furnaces! From previous postings on this forum it also seems that the dock at Port Talbot is smaller than the one at Portbury and also designed to take iron ore, not other goods, so presumably this is a more practical solution.

 

[zwk500]

From previous postings on this forum it also seems that the dock at Port Talbot is smaller than the one at Portbury and also designed to take iron ore, not other goods, so presumably this is a more practical solution.

The tidal wharf at Port Talbot is 300m long, the same length as the entrance lock at Portbury, but as you mention can only take Iron Ore. The enclosed docks at Port Talbot (which ABP's website indicate can handle steel) have a 130m entrance lock. It's also possible that it might be down to the exact handling equipment being used or even just the prices each port offered.

 

[geordieblue]

The tidal wharf at Port Talbot is 300m long, the same length as the entrance lock at Portbury, but as you mention can only take Iron Ore. The enclosed docks at Port Talbot (which ABP's website indicate can handle steel) have a 130m entrance lock. It's also possible that it might be down to the exact handling equipment being used or even just the prices each port offered.

Sorry - by smaller I didn’t just mean length but depth, I think Portbury is deeper.

 

[zwk500]

Sorry - by smaller I didn’t just mean length but depth, I think Portbury is deeper.

The tidal berth at Port Talbot is deeper than Portbury (16m vs 14.5m) but the enclosed docks are shallower at 7.7m. Portbury can handle a much larger displacement vessel in the enclosed docks than Port Talbot could.

https://www.abports.co.uk/locations/port-talbot/, https://shipnext.com/port/bristol-gbbrs-gbr

 

[geordieblue]

The tidal berth at Port Talbot is deeper than Portbury (16m vs 14.5m) but the enclosed docks are shallower at 7.7m. Portbury can handle a much larger displacement vessel in the enclosed docks than Port Talbot could.

https://www.abports.co.uk/locations/port-talbot/, https://shipnext.com/port/bristol-gbbrs-gbr

Thanks - I must have been misremembering!

 

[zwk500]

Thanks - I must have been misremembering!

No, the reasoning still stacks up - the tidal berth at Port Talbot is the Ore offloading wharf. Any steel slab would almost certainly need to use the enclosed docks, with the length and draught restriction. Although all the 'general cargo ships' using Portbury on Vessel Finder seem to have dimensions that are within Port Talbot's enclosed dock limits, so it might easily be something to do with the slab handling, or even the access to the right part of the steelworks, or something very mundane like pricing.
However we have now got very far from the thread topic, and should probably start a new one if this tangent goes any further.

 

[dutchbedford]

Surely a new entrance at the Southern end would either obliterate pl.2 completely (and with it the DMU stabling) or need a lift anyway as ground level is well below track level.

Neither. Will lose the Motorail to provide a pathway but zero removal of Platform 2.

 

[JKF]

They’re using Portbury, Newport and Cardiff docks for slab import as they need a lot of it to replace the blast furnace output. Portbury can handle larger vessels that won’t fit in the other two. Portbury also has a facility (warehouse?) to maintain a stock of it.

I would imagine there will be some disruption to steel traffic due to works on the line connected to the passenger reopening, GBRF were reported to be on a three year contract for it. I guess the traffic may have to be focused on the other docks when the line is under possession. Having said that, most works will be on the closed section, but there will be disruption at Pill and Ashton where some works will be needed.

 

[norbitonflyer]

They’re using Portbury, Newport and Cardiff docks for slab import as they need a lot of it to replace the blast furnace output. Portbury can handle larger vessels that won’t fit in the other two. Portbury also has a facility (warehouse?) to maintain a stock of it.

I would imagine there will be some disruption to steel traffic due to works on the line connected to the passenger reopening, GBRF were reported to be on a three year contract for it. I guess the traffic may have to be focused on the other docks when the line is under possession. Having said that, most works will be on the closed section, but there will be disruption at Pill and Ashton where some works will be needed.

There's a longh article in the latest issue of Modern Railways describing the various flows, and yes - Port talbot is curently not producuing steel slab whilst the conversion to electric arc furnaces proceeds, but the rest of the plant still needs steel slab to produce finished products (coil for example)

 

[JKF]

Interestingly, for a few weeks in early 2022 there was the same flow happening in reverse, with steel slab from Port Talbot going for export from Portbury. I have a vague memory that this was destined for Holland but could be wrong on that. DB cargo were operating the trains. It only ran for a couple of weeks I think.

Were there export flows of slabs through other ports when the furnace was operating?

 

[Adrian Barr]

Were there export flows of slabs through other ports when the furnace was operating?

Newport Docks had a fairly regular flow of export slab (in additional to steel coil exports). For example this Margam - Newport Docks train in 2017: https://www.flickr.com/photos/122345727@N06/37868667164/

Cardiff occasionally handled export slab traffic, as seen in this 2012 shot of 66012 waiting to depart the dock with empties: https://www.flickr.com/photos/turners_pics/7261580600/

I think a lot of these movements were inter-works traffic between Port Talbot and the large Tata steelworks at Ijmuiden, Netherlands (with its adjacent port) - a way of balancing out supply and demand against production capacity of slab and coil in each location. If capacity was reduced at one location for some reason (such as a blast furnace being relined) there might be a short period where greater volumes were moved. There might be imports at one time and exports at another... obviously with the current situation this has shifted to imports, but for example some export coil is still shipped through Newport Docks after processing (e.g. cold rolling).

I wonder where the steel originated and why it could not have been produced at Port Talbot before they closed the blast furnaces? I also wonder why it is not shipped straight into the dock at Port Talbot?

The Tata Steel UK YouTube channel has fairly regular updates on what's happening at Port Talbot. In an interview, they did mention that stocks of slab at Port Talbot had been increased prior to the closure of the blast furnaces. The problem is that there is only so much steel that could have been produced in excess of existing requirements; a stockpile sufficient to supply Tata UK's requirements for three years would be unfeasibly vast. If I recall correctly, they said some slab would be coming from Ijmuiden (Tata plant in the Netherlands), some from Tata plants in India (unsurpising as that's where the company is based) with a smaller amount needing to be bought on the open market from China and elsewhere. The slab imports will be required until the new electric arc furnace is up and running in ~2028.

As mentioned already, the enclosed dock at Port Talbot is fairly small. The draught / size restrictions have been discussed, but the quoted "deadweight" tonnage (roughly equivalent to cargo capacity) for ships at each port makes the point more clearly:

Port Talbot Docks: 8,000 tons
https://www.abports.co.uk/locations/port-talbot/

Cardiff Roath Dock: 35,000 tons
https://www.abports.co.uk/locations/cardiff/

Newport Docks: 40,000 tons
https://www.abports.co.uk/locations/newport/

Portbury: 130,000 tons
https://www.bristolport.co.uk/trades/why-choose-bristol-port

While Port Talbot can handle huge ships for the offloading of coal and iron ore, this is basically a jetty with a conveyor system for handling bulk materials, completely unsuitable for handling general cargo.
This is a good photo of it, overlooking the ore stockyards: https://www.flickr.com/photos/schooly1/27397562878/

Some interesting views in this video of the last ore shipment to be offloaded there:

Final Iron Ore Shipment to Port Talbot Steelworks | Tata Steel UK

 

[JKF]

All the trains I’ve seen in the last week have been 22 wagons long, and the outbound ones fully loaded with three slabs on each, whereas in the past it’s often only been 19 wagons many with just two slabs or even empty. There’s also been two trains a day in the week and one ran on Saturday, so clearly some demand to keep up with at the moment! Slabs are around 20-25 tonnes each - seems most wagons are loaded with one larger at the bottom and two narrower at the top so around 65 tonnes per wagon, which is about 1400 for the whole load, plus weight of the wagons themselves. RTT has the load at up to 2200 tonnes.

In the autumn some trains had problems getting out of the docks around the curved incline to join the Portishead line, which was I believe due to poor adhesion as the line/lineside was quite overgrown. After the initial week with some delays and cancellations they ran trains double headed for a week before getting heavy haul 66s on the job. It seems like they’ve resolved this now as I’ve not observed anything significantly delayed on the branch for a while and regular 66s are often used.

The lunchtime outward train seems to be fairly reliable at the moment and isn’t departing early as has often happened in the past - I think this is because they are operating a line block during the day for vegetation clearance and tree works in the gorge so it needs to wait for that to be cleared before departing.

The inbound train at lunchtime usually waits for the outbound to come off the branch, but on a couple of occasions this has run down to the docks while the other is still there. This happened with one train last week after the morning train had been an hour late on arrival (delays in south wales) and they probably hadn’t finished loading it.

 

[Envoy]

Many thanks Adrian Barr for your detailed explanation.

 

[DBS92042]

All the trains I’ve seen in the last week have been 22 wagons long, and the outbound ones fully loaded with three slabs on each, whereas in the past it’s often only been 19 wagons many with just two slabs or even empty. There’s also been two trains a day in the week and one ran on Saturday, so clearly some demand to keep up with at the moment! Slabs are around 20-25 tonnes each - seems most wagons are loaded with one larger at the bottom and two narrower at the top so around 65 tonnes per wagon, which is about 1400 for the whole load, plus weight of the wagons themselves. RTT has the load at up to 2200 tonnes.

In the autumn some trains had problems getting out of the docks around the curved incline to join the Portishead line, which was I believe due to poor adhesion as the line/lineside was quite overgrown. After the initial week with some delays and cancellations they ran trains double headed for a week before getting heavy haul 66s on the job. It seems like they’ve resolved this now as I’ve not observed anything significantly delayed on the branch for a while and regular 66s are often used.

The lunchtime outward train seems to be fairly reliable at the moment and isn’t departing early as has often happened in the past - I think this is because they are operating a line block during the day for vegetation clearance and tree works in the gorge so it needs to wait for that to be cleared before departing.

The inbound train at lunchtime usually waits for the outbound to come off the branch, but on a couple of occasions this has run down to the docks while the other is still there. This happened with one train last week after the morning train had been an hour late on arrival (delays in south wales) and they probably hadn’t finished loading it.

To quote a driver (Driver 59 on Flickr) who regularly drives on the Portbury workings: "The max load on the job for both types of 66 is 2386 tonne so I guess 25 BYA's. Today I had virtually the same load with 66651 and climbed both Pill bank and Filton bank at exactly the same (min) speed as yesterdays ''standard'' loco, 20 mph and 13 mph respectively."

They post some unique shots of the train around the Portbury branch so well worth checking out and there's some great information in the comments on some of the photos