Still confused over smartcards

[planetf1]

I have a gtr key Smartcard. Key go is active which works great for journeys Brighton-London etc (but no travel card) . No thinking ahead, railcard included.

I also have a swr railcard where I could also add payg.

Today I needed to travel portslade-Portsmouth. I can’t use payg as some options cross both companies, and the start/end stations also aren’t in same company

I wondered if I could buy a Smartcard ticket. Ideally to collect via app, or station.but it wasn’t clear I could actually buy this or that it was valid

Is this possible? Can it all be done in app? Specifically for day tickets (I know in Brighton the super off peaks don’t work)

Ended up using TrainPal to find it sold be a collect at station. Ok I’ve done so but annoying. Should have used Trainline since etickets available for same journey (and also supports Apple wallet)

 

[MrJeeves]

Today I needed to travel portslade-Portsmouth. I can’t use payg as some options cross both companies, and the start/end stations also aren’t in same company

It's unfortunate. GTR keyGo and SWR tap2go both have cross acceptance with other TOCs on some lines, but none that would help for this journey!

I wondered if I could buy a Smartcard ticket. Ideally to collect via app, or station.but it wasn’t clear I could actually buy this or that it was valid

Is this possible? Can it all be done in app? Specifically for day tickets (I know in Brighton the super off peaks don’t work)

You might be able to buy this journey from a TVM on the smartcard, but it's not a guarantee. You won't be able to do it from an app with either TOC smartcard, as far as I'm aware.

GTR only let you collect season ticket purchases made online on their smartcard, and I'd assume SWR are the same.

Ended up using TrainPal to find it sold be a collect at station. Ok I’ve done so but annoying. Should have used Trainline since etickets available for same journey (and also supports Apple wallet)

Or TrainSplit... no bias Though we won't do it as an e-ticket as GTR haven't enabled it for e-ticket fulfilment, unfortunately.

 

[planetf1]

@MrJeeves Thanks for the reply. As a techie, In part the email was an outlet of frustration over the ticket fragmentation - particularly in terms of formats that can be used (as opposed to pricing), where I see stations have rfid readers & barcode scanners. Smartcards in particular fell way short of their potential, and arguably they're getting past their time now as more and more use etickets - which is a good thing (I'd rather like to be able to use phone rfid though to be even quicker). The spread of contactless journeys in the south east it something I look forward too as well. (to be fair until then keygo is very nice, integrates local buses, but only in a select area, and in particular not including london travelcard/underground/bus

This specific journey is interesting in that on checking, it's not just trainpal that don't do etickets, but also trainsplit, and indeed GTR (thameslink app) themselves. So the fact that thetrainline Do appear to offer is an oddity, and arguably wrong - though I'm certain it's ok at those stations. perhaps there are some stations en-route without readers. So here I guess the blame falls more with a) the trainline - are they actually wrong b) GTR for not permitting etickets c) possibly the station operators if it's hardware related

 

[MrJeeves]

This specific journey is interesting in that on checking, it's not just trainpal that don't do etickets, but also trainsplit, and indeed GTR (thameslink app) themselves. So the fact that thetrainline Do appear to offer is an oddity, and arguably wrong - though I'm certain it's ok at those stations. perhaps there are some stations en-route without readers. So here I guess the blame falls more with a) the trainline - are they actually wrong b) GTR for not permitting etickets c) possibly the station operators if it's hardware related

Trainline are known to ignore e-ticket availability information from industry data (RCS — retail control service) a lot of the time. While for many other retailers this would be an accreditation failure, it appears TTL don't have the same issue. Why that is I can only speculate...

In this situation, GTR haven't enabled the flows for e-ticket fulfillment, but Trainline have overridden this to offer them anyway.

With some operators, we can contact them to try and get them enabled in RCS, but some operators are less responsive to requests than others so it's not a guarantee. I don't know if that's on purpose or such a heavy workload that they lose track of things.

 

[Haywain]

c) possibly the station operators if it's hardware related

There are two companies involved, in that Portslade is managed by Southern and the Portsmouth stations are managed by SWR. However, hardware being enabled for acceptance of eTickets is not a prerequisite of eTickets being enabled, although it is clear that GTR prefer not to enable them unless the gatelines are able to accept them.

Trainline are known to ignore e-ticket availability information from industry data (RCS — retail control service) a lot of the time. While for many other retailers this would be an accreditation failure, it appears TTL don't have the same issue. Why that is I can only speculate...

Self-accreditation, that's why.

 

[MrJeeves]

Self-accreditation, that's why.

There are many words I could use to describe this which I don't think would be suitable for the forum.

 

[miklcct]

There are two companies involved, in that Portslade is managed by Southern and the Portsmouth stations are managed by SWR. However, hardware being enabled for acceptance of eTickets is not a prerequisite of eTickets being enabled, although it is clear that GTR prefer not to enable them unless the gatelines are able to accept them.

Self-accreditation, that's why.

Is it because the implementation was made well before the accreditation requirement existed, earning it a grandfather right?

 

[Haywain]

Is it because the implementation was made well before the accreditation requirement existed, earning it a grandfather right?

No.

 

[miklcct]

No.

So what is the reason of this exemption? Can other retailers sue Rail Delivery Group of unfair business practices?

 

[MrJeeves]

My understanding is that TTL's e-ticket implementation came before RCS existed, and they had/have separate agreements with TOCs for e-tickets as a result.

@Adam Williams might be able to explain more

 

[OscarH]

My understanding is that TTL's e-ticket implementation came before RCS existed, and they had/have separate agreements with TOCs for e-tickets as a result.

@Adam Williams might be able to explain more

I'm under the impression there is not a formal agreement that allows them to do this, more they just do it and RDG doesn't attempt to stop them

 

[Haywain]

I'm under the impression there is not a formal agreement that allows them to do this,

Do what?

 

[OscarH]

Do what?

Ignore the data and issue eTickets for whatever they choose

I may be wrong, but it would seem odd to me that they were explicitly allowed to ignore the spec as a special case, as opposed to just getting away with it

 

[paul1609]

There are two companies involved, in that Portslade is managed by Southern and the Portsmouth stations are managed by SWR. However, hardware being enabled for acceptance of eTickets is not a prerequisite of eTickets being enabled, although it is clear that GTR prefer not to enable them unless the gatelines are able to accept them.

Self-accreditation, that's why.

I'm reliably told that the reason that PAYG has not been implemented between swr and GTR is that for several London Areas to Portsmouth Area flows it is impossible for the system to differentiate which fare to charge. Implementation would require significant fares simplification over 4 South of London operators and their individual brands. There are also (lots of) instances where long distance tickets across the south have cheaper fares than the point to point fares on the swr network they use.

 

[Haywain]

Ignore the data and issue eTickets for whatever they choose

I may be wrong, but it would seem odd to me that they were explicitly allowed to ignore the spec as a special case, as opposed to just getting away with it

It is brought to their attention on a regular basis, but it tends to be on a case by case basis so rather like whack-a-mole.

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm reliably told that the reason that PAYG has not been implemented between swr and GTR is that for several London Areas to Portsmouth Area flows it is impossible for the system to differentiate which fare to charge. Implementation would require significant fares simplification over 4 South of London operators and their individual brands. There are also (lots of) instances where long distance tickets across the south have cheaper fares than the point to point fares on the swr network they use.

IIRC at one point we had a forum member who was involved in Southern pricing, (at least he claimed to be), and I’m fairly sure he confirmed they’d intentionally undercut SWT to attempt to fill the west coastway trains with passengers who’d normally tend to go via Guildford. Or even tempt people from places such as Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton. Of course as you correctly say, this isn't really going to work with any sort of PAYG or contactless system. Doesn’t help with the regular calls in the forums for distance based pricing either…

 

[island]

So what is the reason of this exemption? Can other retailers sue Rail Delivery Group of unfair business practices?

Unlikely. “Unfair business practices” isn’t really a thing. They would need to cite an identified breach of an identified legal or contractual right. I doubt other retailers even have a contract with Trainline to sue under.

 

[paul1609]

IIRC at one point we had a forum member who was involved in Southern pricing, (at least he claimed to be), and I’m fairly sure he confirmed they’d intentionally undercut SWT to attempt to fill the west coastway trains with passengers who’d normally tend to go via Guildford. Or even tempt people from places such as Fareham, Swanwick and Southampton. Of course as you correctly say, this isn't really going to work with any sort of PAYG or contactless system. Doesn’t help with the regular calls in the forums for distance based pricing either…

The lower fares pre-dated Southern by some years. They certainly existed in the Connex era (along with the Victoria to Bournemouth service which was axed as part of the Operation Princess Recovery) but I think they may well have existed in the Network Southeast era (as a Route Horsham/Hassocks ticket). My moneys on them being introduced on completion of/ or shortly after the Solent Link Electrification.

 

[miklcct]

Unlikely. “Unfair business practices” isn’t really a thing. They would need to cite an identified breach of an identified legal or contractual right. I doubt other retailers even have a contract with Trainline to sue under.

Isn't this, again, anticompetitive behaviour between RDG and Trainline by RDG allowing Trainline not following certain rules, making it having a competitive advantage over other retailers on the market?

 

[MrJeeves]

Isn't this, again, anticompetitive behaviour between RDG and Trainline by RDG allowing Trainline not following certain rules, making it having a competitive advantage over other retailers on the market?

Some might call it that, yes, but I don't think Trainline are the only people who don't strictly follow accreditation requirements.

 

[yorkie]

So what is the reason of this exemption? Can other retailers sue Rail Delivery Group of unfair business practices?

Isn't this, again, anticompetitive behaviour between RDG and Trainline by RDG allowing Trainline not following certain rules, making it having a competitive advantage over other retailers on the market?

I don't agree with what Trainline are doing here, however there is absolutely no prospect of any such action being taken against them.

The idea of them being sued is complete fantasy.

If the TOCs had appropriate policies and if the data was reliable, Trainline wouldn't be doing their own thing and e tickets would be almost* universal available, and the whole issue would not exist.

(* With a few reasonable exceptions, such as cross London tickets until the gatelines have been adjusted)