Stockport Signalling (trespass, 02 Nov 24)

[Russel]

I think in the hierarchy of needs, the needs of the person who is putting themselves at risk of serious harm due to a medical episode are greater than the needs of thousands of people going to or from work, or social events, or even, dare I say it, funerals. That's no different to the needs of the heart attack patient on the train trumping the needs of the same delayed travelling public. To think otherwise is simply callous and selfish.

It's completely different, someone having a heart attack on a train, and someone choosing to trespass on a live railway line then climb an OHLE stanchion, putting themselves at risk, aren't at all comparable.

 

[D365]

I think in the hierarchy of needs, the needs of the person who is putting themselves at risk of serious harm due to a medical episode are greater than the needs of thousands of people going to or from work, or social events, or even, dare I say it, funerals. That's no different to the needs of the heart attack patient on the train trumping the needs of the same delayed travelling public. To think otherwise is simply callous and selfish.

It's completely different, someone having a heart attack on a train, and someone choosing to trespass on a live railway line then climb an OHLE stanchion, putting themselves at risk, aren't at all comparable.

Absolutely agree that it’s completely different.

And what about the risk of a medical emergency for one or more of the thousands of people trapped on the affected trains?

 

[Lewisham2221]

What gets me is that during these incidents, is seeing how some train operators respond. Some train operator just give up and try to run a minimal service that they can get away with, rather than trying to get people even slightly closer to their destination or inconvenience as few people as possible. I have some sympathy for some operators such as Avanti and Northern but it does seem that situations like this are seen as an easy way to get trains back to the depot early and cut services. They don't need to care about the cost as any taxis or replacement buses as that cost is just being sent to Network Rail.


What I mean by this is, TFW South Wales - Manchester services mostly terminated at Crewe. Every time someone breaks a fingernail and TFW cancel Crewe - Manchester and don't give a stuff. They had the stock and staff as they would have already booked to run through to Manchester and so why couldn't they extend all services to Wilmslow to turnaround there? For passengers travelling northbound, they are closer to Manchester (by quite a bit), others may be able to get lifts from Wilmslow or use some local buses to get onwards from there. For Southbound passengers it would have meant anyone boarding at Wilmslow (given Avanti were understandably up the wall) a chance to get to Crewe for onward travel. This would reduce the number of passengers affected by the incident.
Similarly Manchester - North Wales services ended at Warrington Bank Quay. Do TFW staff not sign Earlestown P3 so they could turnback? Not ideal given, passengers could have use TFW to Earlestown for connections to Manchester Victoria or Liverpool or Newton Le Willows passengers could have gotten a lift/local bus 10 minutes up the road.

East Midlands Railway prioritised getting their trains back to the East Midlands. No attempt to run trains to Stockport to turn them around there. Or at worst case, offer trains to Hazel Grove but tell people that there is no onward travel from there and that the choice is wait at Sheffield, use an alternative route, or go to Hazel Grove and find your own way onwards (with of course the 192 bus running to Stockport Manchester frequently). Again, given staff and stock would have already been allocated to these runs, the staff/stock issue isn't really there.

Cross Country did their usual and cancelled everything between Manchester and Birmingham New Street, with zero care in the world for passengers. Why couldn't they turning trains at Stoke (as they did at the very start of the incident) or Macclesfield (Avanti ran some services to Macclesfield). Instead just abandon everyone at Birmingham and hope they find their way from there. Standard pitiful response from Cross Country on the long distance network.


Northern, while I have some sympathy for them and their situation (given staff bases, the electric being of in some areas etc), surely they could have done something between Buxton and Hazel Grove/Stockport. They have a staff depot in Buxton and trains were stuck that side of the block. Various trains at Manchester Airport, surely they could have got a guard and driver to run Manchester Airport - Crewe shuttles (so people could connect onto Metrolink into Manchester) rather than abandoning it. Mid Cheshire Line had 2x150s which terminated at Altrincham and rather than try to get staff to them to run back to Chester and run some kind of service, they kept the train at Altrincham for an hour then ran it to Stockport to add it to the congestion.

TPE on North Trans Pennine could have done a few things better (not having trains block Victoria for over an hour waiting for their WTT return, and instead stepped up the trains to return east on the next service, and trying to run South Pennine services to Stockport) but on the whole, I think they seemed to run the best service given the disruption, including WCML services reaching Manchester Piccadilly in most cases.

Quite simply, it really isn't that simple.

A quick bit of looking on RTT gives a few examples of why:

• At Crewe, TfW services from Shrewsbury to Manchester can physically only use P5 or P6. An Avanti service was blocking P6 from 1729 until 2025.
• The unit and traincrew that should form the 1530 TfW from MAN got caught in the disruption and arrived at in MAN at 1650. That unit (unsure about the crew) wasn't able to leave until it formed the 1930 departure.
• Stoke has two platforms accessible from the South. At (at least) one point, one of these platforms was occupied by an Avanti service for over 30 minutes.
• At least 3 EMR services (traincrew and a total of 9 units) were caught up in everything between SPT and LIV.

The absolute last thing you want to be doing in these situations is firing resource after resource into a potential black hole, at risk of absolutely destroying your ability to run a service on the rest of your network.

 

[DarloRich]

Quite simply, it really isn't that simple.

Correct - I am not really bothered about where trains are turned round. More that the information to passengers is clear, that mitigations are in place and that staff on the ground are given the authority ( and support) to make decisions that will help passengers continue thier journey.

this board gets hung up on "tactical" operational decisions.

 

[tehmarks]

It's completely different, someone having a heart attack on a train, and someone choosing to trespass on a live railway line then climb an OHLE stanchion, putting themselves at risk, aren't at all comparable.

Do you really think that a person having a mental health episode is really 'choosing' to trespass on a live railway in anything like the normal understanding of the word choice?

But, ignoring that minor detail, I'm still not quite sure how you suggest that BTP get this person down from up an OHLE structure without putting themselves at risk, physically or legally.

 

[185]

At Crewe, TfW services from Shrewsbury to Manchester can physically only use P5 or P6. An Avanti service was blocking P6 from 1729 until 2025.

Good signallers at Crewe are less and less recently. The arriving Cardiff - Manchester has on several occasions gone into platform 7 or 8. Changed ends, back onto the Salop. Changed ends, sailed through the fastline with a delay of 8-10L. Just relies on having an experienced signaller that isn't a panicker.

 

[Krokodil]

Various trains at Manchester Airport, surely they could have got a guard and driver to run Manchester Airport - Crewe shuttles (so people could connect onto Metrolink into Manchester) rather than abandoning it.

Northern didn’t have "various trains" at Manchester Airport. For more than an hour after the closure the only unit in the platforms was a TfW one. Eventually first the TPE Saltburn unit set back from Slade Lane into the station, followed by Northern's Liverpool stopper. This was a wrong direction move which had to be done one at a time so took probably until 1600 by the time that they were both back.

At 1626 Northern's stopper from Crewe made it to the Airport. This did form the 1701 back to Crewe, but the driver required relief and that arrived around 1715. It then had to wait for the stricken Blackpool service to be set back into the station (it was an unsignalled wrong direction move until the ground signal in the station throat so it effectively occupies a very long section until it's complete). The Crewe stopper finally departed at 1754.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Disruption is now expected until the end of the day.

Where exactly was the trespass incident? Somewhere near Slade Lane Junction (Crowcroft Rd, Levenshulme)?

 

[Lewisham2221]

Where exactly was the trespass incident? Somewhere near Slade Lane Junction (Crowcroft Rd, Levenshulme)?

Yes

 

[Bikeman78]

Absolutely agree that it’s completely different.

And what about the risk of a medical emergency for one or more of the thousands of people trapped on the affected trains?

Not to mention that people sometimes travel by train for NHS appointments. They will likely have to wait weeks or months for another appointment if they miss it.

 

[Russel]

Do you really think that a person having a mental health episode is really 'choosing' to trespass on a live railway in anything like the normal understanding of the word choice?

Making excuses to justify the persons actions are exactly why this sort of thing keeps happening.

Sorry, but they disrupted thousands of others peoples daily lives and closed the main rail line into the counties 3 largest city and disruption that would have spread to large parts of the rail network, they need to now face the full force of the law.

But, ignoring that minor detail, I'm still not quite sure how you suggest that BTP get this person down from up an OHLE structure without putting themselves at risk, physically or legally.

He didn't head straight up an OHLE structure, the BTP should be equipped with Tazers to neutralise the situation before it can escalate.

 

[InkyScrolls]

[T]he BTP should be equipped with Tasers to neutralise the situation before it can escalate.

This opens up a whole host of questions about British policing methods... Do we really want to go down the American route? I don't think so.

Edit: That's not to say tougher policing wouldn't help!

 

[sh24]

Correct - I am not really bothered about where trains are turned round. More that the information to passengers is clear, that mitigations are in place and that staff on the ground are given the authority ( and support) to make decisions that will help passengers continue thier journey.

this board gets hung up on "tactical" operational decisions.

100% agree. Tell passengers what is happening and what options are open to them. People want certainty at times like this, even if the answer is we have no idea when trains will run so please take a cab/bus to here.

And turn off screens, apps that post misleading information!

 

[66701GBRF]

The railway and BTP are not alone in this. Whenever there is similar "concern for welfare" on the roads the exact same thing happens (the Police close the roads for hours until a resolution).

 

[Krokodil]

The railway and BTP are not alone in this. Whenever there is similar "concern for welfare" on the roads the exact same thing happens (the Police close the roads for hours until a resolution).

I could never work out why in this scenario the police often fetch the offender their choice of takeaway and deliver it to the bridge or rooftop. Surely it would be better to tell them that they can have it if they come down first.

 

[coastalview]

We landed back at Manchester Airport around 1730 to find nothing was going anywhere apart from one train to Crewe, what struck me was there was no staff anywhere apart from the guard on the Crewe train and he was surrounded by people asking what to do. I find it amazing that no operator could not have got a member of staff to a major airport to answer questions and advise people on how to travel onwards, we jumped on the metrolink so tapped a card so we had a ticket only to find out later that we didn't need to buy a ticket. There was an announcement saying to use the metrolink but we didn't hear anything about ticket acceptance.

 

[Russel]

This opens up a whole host of questions about British policing methods... Do we really want to go down the American route? I don't think so.

Edit: That's not to say tougher policing wouldn't help!

The soft touch British policing methods are one of the reasons why crime and anti-social behaviour are rife, that and and lack of police officers in general.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The soft touch British policing methods are one of the reasons why crime and anti-social behaviour are rife, that and and lack of police officers in general.

And yet we still manage to be far better than the US in those regards!

 

[skyhigh]

The reality is that if a police officer takes action to remove the trespasser and they end up badly injured/killed as a result, they might find themselves on the end of an investigation and prosecution.

 

[800001]

The reality is that if a police officer takes action to remove the trespasser and they end up badly injured/killed as a result, they might find themselves on the end of an investigation and prosecution.

Exactly! Police are damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

 

[sportzbar]

We landed back at Manchester Airport around 1730 to find nothing was going anywhere apart from one train to Crewe, what struck me was there was no staff anywhere apart from the guard on the Crewe train and he was surrounded by people asking what to do. I find it amazing that no operator could not have got a member of staff to a major airport to answer questions and advise people on how to travel onwards, we jumped on the metrolink so tapped a card so we had a ticket only to find out later that we didn't need to buy a ticket. There was an announcement saying to use the metrolink but we didn't hear anything about ticket acceptance.

There are staff on hand at Manchester Airport. It's run by TPE. But from experience, when the brown stuff hits the fan, these staff seem to disappear leaving it to train crew from other companies to deal with....

 

[Krokodil]

There are staff on hand at Manchester Airport. It's run by TPE. But from experience, when the brown stuff hits the fan, these staff seem to disappear leaving it to train crew from other companies to deal with....

Remind me how removing dispatch duties there was supposed to make staff more available...

To be fair, there wasn't much they could do beyond repeat over the PA that no trains were running and that passengers would be able to use their train tickets on trams to get to the city centre. By the time that the 323 from Crewe arrived nothing had left for a couple of hours so like me they were probably knackered.

 

[coastalview]

There are staff on hand at Manchester Airport. It's run by TPE. But from experience, when the brown stuff hits the fan, these staff seem to disappear leaving it to train crew from other companies to deal with....

Yep I have seen plenty of staff there, I just find it unbelievable that during disruption there was nobody to be found.

 

[_toommm_]

There are staff on hand at Manchester Airport. It's run by TPE. But from experience, when the brown stuff hits the fan, these staff seem to disappear leaving it to train crew from other companies to deal with.

I got to the station around 18:00 after my passport didn't work the automatic gates (quelle surpsise). The ticket office was shut, and there was a security guard near the entrance to the gates (which were wide open). I'm sure the guard had no information provided to him, and was left to deal with hundreds of disgruntled passengers.

To Metrolink's credit, their revenue protection were very aware of the issues, and answered people's questions well. I was expecting a debate on train ticket validity on my phone, but they accepted it straight away, whilst handling other fare dodgers professionally.

 

[coxxy]

Yep I have seen plenty of staff there, I just find it unbelievable that during disruption there was nobody to be found.

Ironic given that when the station went self dispatch, it was sold to everyone that the staff would be freed up to help customers.

But in the future, if anyone ever wanted to find them, they will all be sat in the mess room/office on p2/p3.