Stop boards vs signals around depots/yards

[Dave W]

Hi there,

I'm planning to model a TMD which would be notionally at one end of a yard - although as this is a question about signalling rather than anything to do with the modelling itself I've put it in I&S. I have a basic understanding of signalling but not much more than that. I'd like to represent a combination of signals (working!) and stop boards, but the iteration I've got to so far doesn't feel satisfactory.

Firstly, could I ask someone in the know to kindly offer their understanding on the principles of using stop boards, and secondly to answer a couple of specific questions:

• Can stop boards be used to protect otherwise signalled areas (for example at the exit of a depot), or would this always be a lit signal?
• Where a stop board says "stop and telephone" - who does the driver telephone? I presume the signaller, but what format does this conversation then take?

Much appreciated, thanks!

 

[baz962]

Can't speak for all tmd depots , but my last one was position lights out , signaller controlled. The stop boards are for stopping once past the position lights coming in or to stop the movement while in a depot . Stop boards in my old place were under control of shunter or designated person (DP).

 

[zwk500]

What era and geographical area are you intending to represent? Practices can vary quite a bit.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

In my experience:

The signal allowing you onto the mainline is always controlled by the mainline box. A stop board can be the final signal before this signal.

“and telephone” could be a box controlling the yard or a shunter.

 

[Dave W]

Most grateful for such prompt insight!

What era and geographical area are you intending to represent? Practices can vary quite a bit.

Around 1990, West Midlands - not exactly Bescot but I suspect that's what was in my head when I originally dreamed all this up!

 

[ComUtoR]

https://www.railsigns.uk/sect26page1/sect26page1.html is a good resource for signalling and signage

 

[zwk500]

Most grateful for such prompt insight!

Around 1990, West Midlands - not exactly Bescot but I suspect that's what was in my head when I originally dreamed all this up!

In the 90's, it would almost certainly be a lit signal (usually Main Aspect) protecting the exit towards the main line. Stop boards would be provided for arriving trains, although the depot may have a panel controlling GPLs, at least for the initial few sets of points. Stop boards tend to be provided before any hand points are encountered.

If it's just a set of holding sidings that are fully controlled by the 'box, then they may be provided with GPLs for each individual road giving authority straight out onto the main line.

 

[Dave W]

https://www.railsigns.uk/sect26page1/sect26page1.html is a good resource for signalling and signage

Thanks - I've been making great use of that, including creating a stop sign based on that site's photo of Ardrossan Harbour (my graphic design skills aren't great but luckily these signs are pretty simple and the only "graphic" is a big red dot )

In the 90's, it would almost certainly be a lit signal (usually Main Aspect) protecting the exit towards the main line. Stop boards would be provided for arriving trains, although the depot may have a panel controlling GPLs, at least for the initial few sets of points. Stop boards tend to be provided before any hand points are encountered.

If it's just a set of holding sidings that are fully controlled by the 'box, then they may be provided with GPLs for each individual road giving authority straight out onto the main line.

This is excellent, thank you so much. In this case, things are complicated in that the depot will spit trains out of either a loco sidings or the depot entry/exit road onto lines into the yard (with off-scene connection to the running goods line). Would GPLs then be appropriate for this?

 

[zwk500]

Thanks - I've been making great use of that, including creating a stop sign based on that site's photo of Ardrossan Harbour (my graphic design skills aren't great but luckily these signs are pretty simple and the only "graphic" is a big red dot )



This is excellent, thank you so much. In this case, things are complicated in that the depot will spit trains out of either a loco sidings or the depot entry/exit road onto lines into the yard (with off-scene connection to the running goods line). Would GPLs then be appropriate for this?

Without seeing the layout I couldn't say, especially as the Yard could be either depending on what it is intended to represent. Bet bet is to find pictures of yards you're interested in and look at their setups.

 

[Dave W]

Yep, understood. Thanks again for top answers all round, really pleased I asked now!

 

[zwk500]

Yep, understood. Thanks again for top answers all round, really pleased I asked now!

A farewell to the red DMUs

South west trains May timetable shift usually has little significance to me but this time many services which were operated by Desiel multiple units were being replaced by...

southcoasttrains.weebly.com

The first photo on this website shows the location of stop boards at Fratton Depot, and the backs of two GPLs (the grey triangles) can be made out in the lower foreground, if you want an image. There is a further signal behind the camera that is main-aspect, protecting the final exit.

Also, not very clear but here's a photo from Twitter of the depot ground frame signal diagram: https://twitter.com/traindriverpete/status/1247092896362311680/photo/1 (all rights to the original poster)

 

[Annetts key]

Generally speaking, modern practice is that all movements on to a line controlled by a signal box / power signal box / signalling centre or similar are either ground position signals (GPLs), elevated position signals, or multi aspect main signals.

Which is used depends on the status of the line ahead and how far the next signal is.

For example, if the exit from the depot is onto a low speed goods line or through siding, a GPL is more likely to be used. If however, the exit is via power operated points onto a main running line, then it will almost certainly be a multi aspect main signal. This could be a two, three or four aspect head depending on the type of signalling in use on the main line.

Modern depots generally have GPL signals for controlling movements within a large depot. These are controlled by the depot charge hand or shunter. But smaller depots or older depots use stop boards. As others have said, drivers stopping at stop boards contact the depot charge hand or shunter. This person is responsible for the control of all movements within the depot.

Note that in a modern depot where work is carried out on the rolling stock, there will also be depot / staff protection systems to indicate which lines are closed to movements. Both to protect the staff from movements and to reduce the risk of collision.

Bristol’s St. Philips Marsh uses GPLs controlled by the “Wendyhouse” panel. There are some photos here. The main exit signals are main aspect colour light signals, but GPLs are used on the less often used exits. But both lead up to main aspect signals controlled by a signalling control centre. These protect the junctions with the main line.

 

[Dave W]

A farewell to the red DMUs

South west trains May timetable shift usually has little significance to me but this time many services which were operated by Desiel multiple units were being replaced by...

southcoasttrains.weebly.com

The first photo on this website shows the location of stop boards at Fratton Depot, and the backs of two GPLs (the grey triangles) can be made out in the lower foreground, if you want an image. There is a further signal behind the camera that is main-aspect, protecting the final exit.

Also, not very clear but here's a photo from Twitter of the depot ground frame signal diagram: https://twitter.com/traindriverpete/status/1247092896362311680/photo/1 (all rights to the original poster)

Thanks for these - it's not easy to find images if you don't know where to look; a new rabbit hole has now been discovered!

Generally speaking, modern practice is that all movements on to a line controlled by a signal box / power signal box / signalling centre or similar are either ground position signals (GPLs), elevated position signals, or multi aspect main signals.

Which is used depends on the status of the line ahead and how far the next signal is.

For example, if the exit from the depot is onto a low speed goods line or through siding, a GPL is more likely to be used. If however, the exit is via power operated points onto a main running line, then it will almost certainly be a multi aspect main signal. This could be a two, three or four aspect head depending on the type of signalling in use on the main line.

Modern depots generally have GPL signals for controlling movements within a large depot. These are controlled by the depot charge hand or shunter. But smaller depots or older depots use stop boards. As others have said, drivers stopping at stop boards contact the depot charge hand or shunter. This person is responsible for the control of all movements within the depot.

Note that in a modern depot where work is carried out on the rolling stock, there will also be depot / staff protection systems to indicate which lines are closed to movements. Both to protect the staff from movements and to reduce the risk of collision.

Bristol’s St. Philips Marsh uses GPLs controlled by the “Wendyhouse” panel. There are some photos here. The main exit signals are main aspect colour light signals, but GPLs are used on the less often used exits. But both lead up to main aspect signals controlled by a signalling control centre. These protect the junctions with the main line.

Thanks, an excellent and clear overview - in my case the bit in bold applies so a GPL it is.

Most grateful to all colleagues for aiding my understanding! Cheers!

 

[TheEdge]

There are always outliers to every example though.

When I leave Crown Point heading into Norwich station throat I leave under main aspect signals controlled by Colchester PSB but if I'm leaving directly towards Lowestoft and joining a 60mph running line I do that via a GPL controlled by Crown Point panel. Crown Point also as a point of interest has (I believe) a unique control systems. Most of the roads to the depot are controlled by only 4 GPLs, which are mostly not visible from the actual train on each road. So at the limit of each road is a Stop Board with an "R Indicator". They look much like the older small OFF indictors mounted on platforms but they sit above the Stop Board and (obviously) show an R. Those illuminate and give authority to pass the stop board when their associated GPL has come off.

 

[O L Leigh]

The simple but unhelpful answer is "it depends".

If we're talking just about a collection of sidings (e.g. carriage sidings) these tend to be under the jurisdiction of the controlling signalbox and will be controlled by signals. Primarily these will be ground position light signals (GPLs), although you may find that there is a main aspect signal controlling the outlet depending on the precise nature of the location. Outlet signals at Bishops Stortford CS were all GPLs because you were being signalled directly into a permissive platform, but at Cambridge CS there is a main aspect signal because you can be signalled along other lines too but with an associated position light signal. Not all siding roads will necessarily have their own signal. For example, prior to redevelopment Cambridge CS had three siding roads known collectively as the "719 Roads" because they were all controlled by the same GPL signal (CA719) and drivers would need to phone the signaller to know which movement a signal aspect referred to. Inlet signals will be main aspect signals with an associated position light signal (APL) with or without a route indication. It will be the APL that will control the entry not the main aspect.

Depots are a mixed bag and tend to vary widely, as movements within depots are controlled by a yard supervisor. Once you pass the APL to enter a depot you will generally encounter a "STOP - Await Instructions" board quite quickly; usually at the shunter's cabin. Once you are authorised to pass this (usually by handsignal or verbal instructions from the shunter) you may find others. Usually these protect features such as yard necks, fueling roads and sheds or other buildings. At each you will be required to stop and wait for authority to proceed. Some, such as before sheds, may be different and have instructions like "STOP - Sound horn before entering" which have to be obeyed. Most depots, however, now have depot protection systems in place on shed roads, including flashing lights and an audible alarm inside the shed, and a derailer and GPL protection outside the shed. But if your period of interest is the 1990s then you would probably have only had a STOP board of some flavour.

 

[Dave W]

Many thanks to both of you for excellent summaries of your own experience.

The simple but unhelpful answer is "it depends".

I rather suspected this was the case and in some ways it offers quite a bit of "artistic licence" - easy to put something a bit weird down to special instructions or whatever - but retention of some semblance of realism is the goal in the end. Let's see what I come up with......!

 

[FGW_DID]

@Dave W

An example of both from Reading:

a) The former DMU depot in the lower triangle sidings (swept away in the Reading remodelling, now covered by the feeder lines).

The depot was controlled by stop boards and points were hand operated by the person in charge of the yard. The sheds were protected by either GPL or both GPL & Stop Board. (see photos)
A unit would pull up to the Stop Board, the Maintenance Team Leader would come and lower the de-railer (yellow item on the rails between board & shed) then operate the GPL to allow access to the shed.

Departure was via a Main Line signal controlled by Reading Panel, after the Person in charge of the yard had input the headcode into the train describer.
Arrivals were controlled by Reading Panel but only after ‘a slot request’ was accepted by the person in charge.

b) The current Reading TCD.

All train movements are controlled from the Reading Depot Control Centre using power operated points, GPLs and axle counters, the person in charge of the yard is known as the ‘Train Movement Controller’ (TMC). Depot protection for the sheds is all automated and once again controlled by the Maintenance Team Leader.
The signalling workstation, used by the TMC, in the control centre interfaces with the TVSC Reading Stn & Reading West Jn workstations.

Units departing depot will start from behind a GPL, the Mainline Driver taking the unit off depot will contact the TMC to declare themselves ready to go, after instruction from the TMC, the TMC (who will have already input the train headcode into the berth at the GPL) will set the route from the respective GPL to the exit signal (this will alert the Signaller). Once the Signaller sets & accepts the route, the depot GPL will clear and the unit then approaches the mainline signal to exit the depot.

For arrivals, the signaller will request a ‘slot’. The TMC will set a route from the entry point to the desired siding then accept the ‘slot request’, this will then allow the signaller to set the route to the depot and clear the signals. Signal indications & any theatre box indications will be dependant on the siding selected by the TMC. (Train approaches either a fixed red or GPL)

Reading DMUD:


Reading TCD Control Centre: