Stop short on advance ticket to avoid long wait due to missed connection?

[87 027]

On Friday evening my wife travelled on a First Class Advance ticket from London Euston to Burton on Trent with a change at Tamworth from VT onto XC. She had a seat reservation for both services. Because of disruption on the WCML (at one point the train was going to be diverted altogether) she missed the connection at Tamworth and the next service was not due for over an hour. Since Burton is only one stop up the line I drove to Tamworth instead to collect her.

Technically of course this is stopping short on an Advance ticket and I wonder if anyone here believes she should should have been made to pay the full first class fare* on exiting at Tamworth for not sticking rigidly to the terms of the Advance ticket and declining to wait at night on a cold platform for over an hour for the sake of a 12 minute, one stop journey to her final ticketed destination?

(* She wasn't, fortunately, but what would an RPI have done?)

 

[First class]

Was the train actually delayed?

 

[87 027]

Yes. The VT service was due in Tamworth at 2042 around half an hour or more late. Next train to Burton by the time my wife got onto the correct platform was 2228. Once the connection was looking very tight I decided to drive to Tamworth whatever.

 

[First class]

So the VT got in at 21:12, with the next train leaving at 21:20.

5 minutes is the advertised connection time, so 8 minutes appears to be very generous.

I would have said she would have been liable for an additional fare if stopped exiting Tamworth to COMPLETE HER JOURNEY.

Was she always booked on the 21:20?

 

[87 027]

I don't know what the exact timings were as I wasn't on the train myself since I was driving. The onward booking was on the 2108 which she definitely missed.

Having originally been advised that the train would be diverted and Tamworth passengers would have to get a rail replacement bus, but then that the line had reopened and the train actually reversed back into Rugby to get on its original route, we weren't overly confident that the 2120 connection could be made hence my decision to drive to Tamworth in any case.

Once I was there it would have been a bit daft, practically, for her to get the train to Burton and me to follow in in the car! I take your point about the 3 minutes but I took the view that we were dealing with too much uncertainty on the situation as reported on the ground to make such finely poised judgements.

 

[heenan73]

I can't even imagine them charging for stopping short; they'd likely assume she was interrupting her journey, as they'd have no reason to even look at her reservations. It may be theoretically possible - even with the delay, but in the real world, it would take more than a jobsworth to make it happen.

In my experience, staff would not even charge a new ticket for being on the 'wrong' onward leg, if the connection was late (and one ticket covered both legs), but they would entitled to, I think, esp if your onward connection was a different TOC.

I've caught a 'wrong' GW train having been delayed on Southeastern, and was not charged after explaining - I did have a through ticket.

That's the one disadvantage of separate tickets; if you are delayed, you really need a 'conductor' in a good mood!

 

[John @ home]

Having originally been advised that the train would be diverted and Tamworth passengers would have to get a rail replacement bus

If I wanted to be technical in my analysis of the rules, I would have stopped my explanation at this point. I would then have been able to say there was not a break the journey

National Rail Conditions of Carriage

16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than: ...
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

because the passenger was following instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.

 

[yorkie]

I don't know what the exact timings were as I wasn't on the train myself since I was driving.

If a post is made on the day of travel, many of us can work out the timings After that, there's only a few people here who can look them up.

Anyway I see nothing wrong with it, and if the rail industry attempted to levy a charge in such circumstances then it could backfire from a PR point of view! In fact it sounds like you may have saved them money as otherwise a compensation claim for a delay over 1 hour could have been made.

 

[87 027]

If a post is made on the day of travel, many of us can work out the timings After that, there's only a few people here who can look them up.

You're absolutely right, of course. We weren't penalised on this occasion but on reflection it got me thinking about the question more generally.

 

[bb21]

That's the one disadvantage of separate tickets; if you are delayed, you really need a 'conductor' in a good mood!

There is no difference whether you are on split tickets or not. If your journey is delayed, you are permitted to catch the next train if you miss your connection.

 

[87 027]

If your journey is delayed, you are permitted to catch the next train if you miss your connection.

My question is of course the opposite - are you permitted NOT to catch the next train and instead make your own arrangements to complete the journey.

I appreciate that stopping short on an advance is against the T&Cs, but this episode makes me more wary of using them on evening services where the final leg of the journey has an infrequent service.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There are two questions here really.

(1) Is it allowed?

(2) Will it be noticed?

For (1), No, it is not allowed. For (2), probably not (stations with barriers may vary), but people have been 'caught' and charged a new fare or a Penalty Fare for stopping short.

 

[jkdd77]

There are two questions here really.

(1) Is it allowed?

(2) Will it be noticed?

For (1), No, it is not allowed. For (2), probably not (stations with barriers may vary), but people have been 'caught' and charged a new fare or a Penalty Fare for stopping short.

I thought it had been established that passengers could not be charged a PF or a new fare in this situation, but would be liable to an excess fare, in accordance with NRCOC 16, and that a couple who were given a PF by SWT for "stopping short" successfully appealed it on these grounds.

16. "If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used."

 

[MikeWh]

I have to say that if I was already late and would be even later by waiting for the next train on an infrequent service that I would be gobsmacked to be held to the terms of the ticket that the railway had already broken their side on. I'd point out that by doing so they were increasing their liability for delay repay, and/or be preparing letters to send to the Daily Mail or Watchdog etc. If none of that worked then I'd say that I couldn't physically pay at that time and accept a UPFN which I would robustly appeal with their head office the next day.

The bottom line for me is that once the railway has failed to get me to my destination at the contracted time, they can't really obstruct any measures I might take to mitigate the effect of that failure, at my own cost, by charging me extra for the part of the journey already completed.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Well, that may or may not have been established, however people have been given Penalty Fares for it, (as you highlight).

Also, as Advance fares have a £10 admin fee for changes to travel plans, it might be cheaper to issue a new ticket.
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I have to say that if I was already late and would be even later by waiting for the next train on an infrequent service that I would be gobsmacked to be held to the terms of the ticket that the railway had already broken their side on....

They might not do it, but that doesn't mean they can't do it

 

[Wolfie]

They might not do it, but that doesn't mean they can't do it

...and on their heads be it if they did! MP, Transport Minister, every newspaper going.....get the drift?
Suffice to say the TOCs PR budget would have to rise by large amounts to counteract the damage I would ensure happened.

Even the intransigent SWT backed down when greeted with a fire storm over the case mentioned earlier, AFTER the damage had been done so a real lose-lose for them!

 

[4SRKT]

Surely the 'correct' procedure in such a situation is to say you have to go off the station (especially one with barriers) 'for a fag'. Then simply don't come back. This has all bases covered AFAICS.

What is the situation with barriers anyway? There seems no consistency. I was recently travelling on an advance from Shipley to Luton AP with a 40 minute connection at Nottingham. I left the station for a feed at the cafe across the road and came back later, and my advance ticket was accepted by the barrier both times.

 

[bb21]

Each station can set its own barriers as to what to accept, from accept everything (at a few stations in EMT land that I know) to reject everything and everywhere in between.

 

[sheff1]

What is the situation with barriers anyway? There seems no consistency. I was recently travelling on an advance from Shipley to Luton AP with a 40 minute connection at Nottingham. I left the station for a feed at the cafe across the road and came back later, and my advance ticket was accepted by the barrier both times.

Amazing ! The barriers at Nottingham always reject my ticket when I wish to break my journey on a Day Return.