Stopping trains from departing with station staff assisting passengers onboard

[TUC]

Earlier in the week when my wife was being assisted to board her train the station staff member asked me to stay by the doors to stop it departing with him on board and, sure enough, I had to quickly shout to the guard when he blew his whistle and advise that the staff member was still on the train.

On other occasions my wife has experienced a staff member having to run off the train so quickly that she did not where her bag had been placed (She is blind.).

Surely there should be a means of indicating when a station staff member is on board a train to assist and so the train should not depart yet?

Could there be a flag attached to the carriage door as a recognisable, quickly visible symbol?

 

[zwk500]

The problem with a 'do not depart' flag or something is it could easily be forgotten to be removed immediately, or get knocked off as other passengers get on and off. The 'not to be moved' flags used in stations and depots are padlocked on to specified areas to prevent people accidentally removing them, but that would increase dwell times. Similar concerns about giving platform staff a key to take a door under local control if needed.
Maybe a flexible aerial-type thing on passenger assist jackets that would catch on the lip of the door is possible, but then it's another bit of kit that can get snapped/missed.

The best answer to this is better communication between platform and despatching staff, and IIRC there was a new industry-wide app for passenger assist which could have quite easily accommodated this. All it would need is for a push notification to be sent to the guard 'expect 1 person at XXX, staff to seat but not to travel', and the staff member would be able to check the job off on their app, which would send a notification to the guard 'Passenger assist duties complete'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The best answer to this is better communication between platform and despatching staff, and IIRC there was a new industry-wide app for passenger assist which could have quite easily accommodated this. All it would need is for a push notification to be sent to the guard 'expect 1 person at XXX, staff to seat but not to travel', and the staff member would be able to check the job off on their app, which would send a notification to the guard 'Passenger assist duties complete'.

Or you implement a policy, as I've advocated before, of all handovers being in person, so the guard and the assistance person must speak in person before loading a wheelchair user or other assisted person. Then they'd know.

 

[dingdinger]

Or you implement a policy, as I've advocated before, of all handovers being in person, so the guard and the assistance person must speak in person before loading a wheelchair user or other assisted person. Then they'd know.

Good idea. This is all about communication. If a member of staff is getting on a train that is about to depart to assist someone then they should communicate first with whoever is responsible for that train moving I.e. guard/dispatcher. It's not a passenger's job to do so.

 

[zwk500]

Or you implement a policy, as I've advocated before, of all handovers being in person, so the guard and the assistance person must speak in person before loading a wheelchair user or other assisted person. Then they'd know.

Indeed you could, and I would strongly support doing so. Any overtime on dwells would trigger delay reports which should help focus minds on improving the handover and passenger assist system overall, which should benefit the people who need it most - the passengers.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I'm sure there was a story of a member of Leeds station staff having an unscheduled trip to York in those circumstances a few years ago

 

[zwk500]

I'm sure there was a story of a member of Leeds station staff having an unscheduled trip to York in those circumstances a few years ago

I'm fairly sure I've heard stories of Euston staff getting beyond Crewe on occassion.

 

[randyrippley]

I'm sure there was a story of a member of Leeds station staff having an unscheduled trip to York in those circumstances a few years ago

back in Pre-Pendolino days I was on a Glasgow-Euston at Preston
Staff member was helping a blind elderly lady and her guide dog get a seat, whistle blows and we're away. Next stop Euston..........
He tried to get a stop order to get off at Wigan or Warrington, but Control refused it.

 

[edwin_m]

Good idea. This is all about communication. If a member of staff is getting on a train that is about to depart to assist someone then they should communicate first with whoever is responsible for that train moving I.e. guard/dispatcher. It's not a passenger's job to do so.

Indeed you could, and I would strongly support doing so. Any overtime on dwells would trigger delay reports which should help focus minds on improving the handover and passenger assist system overall, which should benefit the people who need it most - the passengers.

What would that do to dwell times if the guard (or driver under DOO) was seven or eight coaches away from the passenger needing assistance?

 

[zwk500]

What would that do to dwell times if the guard (or driver under DOO) was seven or eight coaches away from the passenger needing assistance?

Extend them of course, which would focus minds on delivering improved solutions (like an Industry app) to get dwells back down. It's a bit Omelettes and Eggs.

 

[dingdinger]

What would that do to dwell times if the guard (or driver under DOO) was seven or eight coaches away from the passenger needing assistance?

That's a fair point. Communication could be done in other ways to face to face. I've heard it over the PA at stations before. They could also ensure the guard has seen them before getting on by waving etc. Or another member of staff (if available) could pass the message whilst the other is assisting. They could also phone in advance to let them know. Either way it's not a passenger's responsibility to be asking for the train to be held.

 

[rg177]

The Passenger Assist app that traincrews (should) already use has a section for traincrew assistance which goes to them.

When I used to book assistance for passengers, we were told not to use that section at staffed stations or the crew would think they had to assist. But I wonder if a simple "staff will be assisting customer on/off - await confirmation that staff are off train", including the reserved seat location if available, would help.

 

[Ibex]

I'm sure there was a story of a member of Leeds station staff having an unscheduled trip to York in those circumstances a few years ago

Getting "locked on" was a semi regular thing at the station I previously dispatched at; once I had it happen to me after I had waved at the guard and shouted "one moment" at them gesturing what I was doing, the second time the other dispatcher gave a guard the tip to close the doors after being asked a question by someone and then forgetting I was still on it!

Wasn't much of an issue at the start of your shift but at the end.... Different story!

 

[MotCO]

Can't the assister have a purple flag or non - regular colour flag to wave to the guard, and get acknowledgment back, before boarding. And wave again when they were off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's a fair point. Communication could be done in other ways to face to face. I've heard it over the PA at stations before. They could also ensure the guard has seen them before getting on by waving etc. Or another member of staff (if available) could pass the message whilst the other is assisting. They could also phone in advance to let them know. Either way it's not a passenger's responsibility to be asking for the train to be held.

Face to face is essential because out of respect for the passenger being assisted they should be introduced to the person responsible for their care. Systems should be put in place to ensure the guard is correctly located.

 

[GWVillager]

In Belgium (I believe), station staff have magnetic rod things that they snap onto the bodyside to easily signify that they're onboard a train. This is ideal: quick, noticeable and unlikely to be removed.

 

[dingdinger]

Face to face is essential because out of respect for the passenger being assisted they should be introduced to the person responsible for their care. Systems should be put in place to ensure the guard is correctly located.

The issue with that is what if the guard is down one end of the train and the accessible area is the other end and they have to traipse down to the guard to then traipse back and if they have limited mobility then not ideal. Yes could help if the guard is in a specific place beforehand but duties may mean they are not.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I was on a train the other day (can't remember where) and the station assistance staff member simply had a local station back-to-back radio with which they were in contact with the dispatcher on the platform. So having got the assisted passenger into their reserved seat, stowed bags and so on they just radioed "I'm just getting off", followed by "all done" as they stepped onto the platform.

Just obvious liaison/teamwork with existing equipment.

I realise that staffing levels/roles vary between station.

 

[Tester]

Melbourne Australia have this well under control.

100% DOO and with every station except one fully accessible to platform, it's the driver who cheerfully deploys the ramp if needed - passengers needing assistance know to wait at the front door.

There is no possibility of staff being trapped on the train

Of course not applicable to all our circumstances, but food for thought all the same!

 

[jnjkerbin]

A similar problem also sometimes occurs when it comes to trains with guards stopping at stations where the guard isn't involved in dispatch. There was an instance at Otford some years ago where the guard helped a passenger off the train, only for the driver to self dispatch using the DOO monitors leaving the guard behind, necessitating the train waiting at Kemsing or Borough Green, while the guard caught up in a taxi!

 

[TheLunaPark]

Forgive me, but are radios a thing at railway stations? Can someone working a platform radio to someone else on another platform or anywhere else in the station? Genuine question. If not, perhaps it would help in situations like this?

 

[Mojo]

Or you implement a policy, as I've advocated before, of all handovers being in person, so the guard and the assistance person must speak in person before loading a wheelchair user or other assisted person. Then they'd know.

Not really practical at many stations, especially where you have crew reliefs, trains where you don’t know where the guard may be, trains that are very long and the customer is being assisted at the other end, and so on. Hunting out the guard could very easily cause delays and add stress.

 

[daodao]

A similar problem also sometimes occurs when it comes to trains with guards stopping at stations where the guard isn't involved in dispatch. There was an instance at Otford some years ago where the guard helped a passenger off the train, only for the driver to self dispatch using the DOO monitors leaving the guard behind, necessitating the train waiting at Kemsing or Borough Green, while the guard caught up in a taxi!

There is an internal contradiction in this post. If the train was DOO, then there was no guard, and the extra staff member (whatever their role) on the train should have liaised with the driver to stop premature self-dispatch of the train. Why was there a need for the train to wait at another station for this extra staff member to catch up with the train?

 

[Mojo]

There is an internal contradiction in this post. If the train was DOO, then there was no guard, and the extra staff member (whatever their role) on the train should have liaised with the driver to stop premature self-dispatch of the train. Why was there a need for the train to wait at another station for this extra staff member to catch up with the train?

Southeastern services that go outwith the ‘Metro’ area ordinarily carry a guard throughout, but in said area trains are dispatched by either the driver, or with dispatch staff giving the applicable signal to the driver at staffed platforms.

In this instance, I believe that the issue was realised once the train got to the next station which requires the guard to dispatch the train.

 

[TUC]

How about the lights which indicate that a train door is open being adapted so that the light for the relevant carriage can be set to flash on/off whilst the staff member providing assistance is on board the train?

 

[Urban Gateline]

How about the lights which indicate that a train door is open being adapted so that the light for the relevant carriage can be set to flash on/off whilst the staff member providing assistance is on board the train?

On a Guard operated train that wouldn't work as only one door panel can be keyed on and live at any one time.

I usually spot platform staff due to their Hi-Vis so if I saw one get onto the train I would wait until they are off, usually it is clear when someone is being assisted. As others have said we could be in any part of the train when not expecting something in particular at the next station so it's not always practical to interact with the platform staff but if it is an assist which takes extra time such as ramp assist I often make the effort to key off and walk to where they are and interact and dispatch from there depending on the station as some we have to be in specific locations to dispatch from safely!

 

[scragend]

I was on a train the other day (can't remember where) and the station assistance staff member simply had a local station back-to-back radio with which they were in contact with the dispatcher on the platform. So having got the assisted passenger into their reserved seat, stowed bags and so on they just radioed "I'm just getting off", followed by "all done" as they stepped onto the platform.

Just obvious liaison/teamwork with existing equipment.

I realise that staffing levels/roles vary between station.

Forgive me, but are radios a thing at railway stations? Can someone working a platform radio to someone else on another platform or anywhere else in the station? Genuine question. If not, perhaps it would help in situations like this?

I had something similar once at Doncaster. I boarded the train with my bike and the LNER platform staff member also got on to unlock the infernal Azuma bike wardrobe. He unlocked it and I put my bike in, but the door seemed to be slightly out of flunter and he was struggling to lock it again. The buzzer went and the train doors started to close. He had a walkie-talkie on him and made a hurried call along the lines of "I'm still on board" and the doors were released again.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Extend them of course, which would focus minds on delivering improved solutions (like an Industry app) to get dwells back down. It's a bit Omelettes and Eggs.

Technology isn't the answer. All technology does is keep people in their own little worlds and prevents them from having an awareness of what's going on

What needs to happen, is the person doing the assistance needs a method to prevent the doors from gaining interlock, like how the OBSs on Southern operate. There aren't enough staff for one to be with a driver/conductor explaining what's going on while someone else does assisting. And if the person doing the assisting does the explaining, its just going to delay the train or the train is going to depart with them onboard

 

[lkpridgeon]

Technology isn't the answer. All technology does is keep people in their own little worlds and prevents them from having an awareness of what's going on

What needs to happen, is the person doing the assistance needs a method to prevent the doors from gaining interlock, like how the OBSs on Southern operate. There aren't enough staff for one to be with a driver/conductor explaining what's going on while someone else does assisting. And if the person doing the assisting does the explaining, its just going to delay the train or the train is going to depart with them onboard

The technology is great when it works. The main issue I've found with the current assist app is quite often some guards don't check or for some reason it doesn't come through to the train even though the assist was accepted. So unfortunately in person handover between station and on-board staff is a must.

The issue with assistance just putting the passenger on the train is the (on-board) responsible staff member may be unaware which could lead to issues upon arrival where assistance isn't caught and the passenger gets stuck on the train until a later point of the service (this has happened to me!), the customer may also needs that may require additional on-board assistance in the likes of delays or moving down the train in the case of short platforms as quite often the staff member at one station is completely oblivious to short platforms en-route and will just use the door nearest to the ingress point at their station,

What should happen for pre-booked assistance is as follows:
> The customer goes to a clearly signed meeting point at the station/ticket office.
> A member of staff greats them there and checks for additional needs
> The member of staff takes them to the platform and sites them somewhere suitable (if early)
> If the member of staff needs to hand-over they need to go through it with the customer
> Customer is helped onto train and met by on-board staff
> On-board staff assume duty of care
> For arrivals on-board wait for then handover to platform staff

My general experience is (for staffed station):
> Ticket office staff send you to agency staff at gateline
> They don't know what's happening
> Back to the ticket office where staff are radioed
> Guard/onboard are unaware of the assistance request
> Passenger has to explain disability in public (which can be sensitive)
> Guard helps you off, assistance might not be there

For unstaffed stations it's 50/50 if the guard knows. And a faff to sort arrival arrangements.