Striking during olympics

[Oswyntail]

Admittedly there one difference in UK regards funding of the Olympics, in that Government as raided the National Lottery to fund the event. So in effect the poorest in this country, who can least afford it are funding Seb's great sporting event. Whilst the richest in the country who shout loudest for the games contribute little to funding due to some tax avoidence scheme or other.

The National Lottery was set up to help fund activities across many spheres, including the then pipe-dream of the Olympics; the Government has not "raided" it. How you equate this with "The poorest" funding it I cannot tell , unless you have the patronising view that buying lottery tickets is restricted to those who cannot afford them (poor souls). And, of course, the other side of the coin pops out - "the richest" and their tax-avoidance schemes. Generalisations worthy of the Mail - or the Socialist Worker from the 70s.

As for legacy cannot see much north of Watford so maybe north of England should be looking for develution.
....

In my own insignificant part of overall activities, "legacy funding" is being distributed to those organisations that can prove a need. These tend to be in the less well-off parts of the country, and are disproportionally North and West of Watford. The "legacy" is not so much in gleaming new infrastructure as in ensuring that the small sporting organisations that genuinely serve communities can improve and develop. Invisible stuff to many, but still important and continuing. And it would probably not have happened without the Games.

 

[Metroland]

Reading through the thread, I can find umpteen examples of you talking to staff how you see fit, slurs on the character of people you don't even know. To then claim you are 'sticking to facts' is just beyond belief. Time after time you come on here, seemingly just to troll - why is that?

Go on then Ferret, point out where this is?

Looking through the thread is seems mostly staff v everyone else. People get told they are talking crap, are right wing bigots, jealous, know nothing enthusiasts and so on.

If I'm so bad, why I have only once in many years been given one warning? Please find the evidence where I have "slurred the characters of people I don't even know".

 

[blacknight]

The National Lottery was set up to help fund activities across many spheres, including the then pipe-dream of the Olympics; the Government has not "raided" it. How you equate this with "The poorest" funding it I cannot tell , unless you have the patronising view that buying lottery tickets is restricted to those who cannot afford them (poor souls). And, of course, the other side of the coin pops out - "the richest" and their tax-avoidance schemes. Generalisations worthy of the Mail - or the Socialist Worker from the 70s.

Did the Government not set up another "good cause" to enable lottery funding to be used for staging Olympics if you create a fifth fund you effectively reduce funds going into other 4 good causes, which is a raid by another name.
As for poorest buying lottery tickets how many of the super rich won the lottery? Just stand in local shop & watch who spends more on scratch cards than food chasing the dream.
Off to shop now to get my ticket for Friday night draw
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And, of course, the other side of the coin pops out - "the richest" and their tax-avoidance schemes. Generalisations worthy of the Mail - or the Socialist Worker from the 70s.

Not old enough to remember to remember 70's but history books seem to suggest that the richest simply left the country to avoid paying the high rate of income tax leaving working class to fund country in hard times, sounds familar.

 

[Ferret]

Go on then Ferret, point out where this is?

Please find the evidence where I have "slurred the characters of people I don't even know".

Exhibit A:

'Or to stereotype like you do the people who disagree with you: The left wing brothers, who bully people that don't go on strike, think there are quite justified in going on strike because they voted for it, and are more interested in them v us than providing a useful service.'

If you actually talk to railway staff, you'll find that most hate the idea of going on strike. It's done as a last resort. This will be why in well over a decade of service, I've not gone on strike once. This is of course, a testament to the negotiating skills of the Union reps and the managers, which has meant that there has never been a necessity to consider action.

 

[Metroland]

Exhibit A:

'Or to stereotype like you do the people who disagree with you: The left wing brothers, who bully people that don't go on strike, think there are quite justified in going on strike because they voted for it, and are more interested in them v us than providing a useful service.'

If you actually talk to railway staff, you'll find that most hate the idea of going on strike. It's done as a last resort. This will be why in well over a decade of service, I've not gone on strike once. This is of course, a testament to the negotiating skills of the Union reps and the managers, which has meant that there has never been a necessity to consider action.

Ferret, that is an ironic play on some of the statements made by the supports of the strike against people that oppose it. Hence the use of the word "stereotype".

People that disagree with the strike are often called "Right wing, Daily Mail readers, capitalist etc". It is assumed that is their default position in life without any evidence, and somehow this is bad anyway.

I pointed this out because that seems to be one angle of attack, that 'if you don't agree with me, you must be Victorian and right wing bigot". IE stuck in the past, with no understanding of 'workers rights'.

But even though the statement is supposed to be ironic, let's break it down.

"The left wing brothers" - Both the RMT and ASLEF are left wing. They refer to their members as 'brothers".

"who bully people that don't go on strike" - that happens sometimes. In some places people are not spoken to for years for not striking. On this very forum, supporters of the action are very clear in their views and have certainly insulted more than just me for disagreeing with them.

"think there are quite justified in going on strike because they voted for it"

The point is, just because voting for a strike by self-interested members doesn't mean in the bigger picture "it's right". Especially when the public are hugely inconvenienced in a week of national pride.

"and are more interested in them v us than providing a useful service."

Several people on this thread justified their action through greedy shareholders and capitalists. They argued that modern society was greedy, and they should better themselves financially for this reason. Especially as this is the Olympics: In other words, we want a slice of the pie. How many people off the railway and London buses are getting these sorts of bonuses? Very few.

The internal culture of the railway is "them v us". Many staff on this forum talk about "Management". Clearly denoting there is a difference between them and the management, ie, to use a phrase "We're not all in it together".

Nevertheless I don't think any of this is a bad as some of the things being said about people that disagree, or the way they are spoken to. You are one of the key members of the forum that likes to lay it on the line Ferret, and are every bit as fond of your opinion. I don't see any slurs, merely the reaction to yet another dispute. As I pointed out, there are several going on right now.

 

[Pugwash]

It Just goes to show how out of touch people who work for TOC's are with the rest of society. Many people are taking unpaid leave to help out at the olympics and travel and accomodation costs can ammount to hundreds of pounds. By striking you are only affecting these people the big corporations don't care. Its a disgrace.

I have said I would volunteer for the same rate of pay as Seb Coe, with many companies with their noses in the trough who appear to be the same ones who will benefit from Public Sector job losses, who can blame the unions.

 

[KA4C]

"who bully people that don't go on strike" - that happens sometimes.

Unlikely that this would happen

But should it happen, then the culprit will have contravened company policies and be dealt with accordingly

It is not an option for safety critical rail staff to refuse to talk to each other, communications are a core part of their work activity

Anyone failing to comply with this requirement would quite quickly find themselves removed from SC duties

There is no requirement for staff to be best buddies and go drinking / football / etc together, that is their choice, outside of work

Staff are expected to work professionally and would be dealt with via appropriate procedures should they fail to do so

 

[Metroland]

It does happen, as has happened in the past in more militant areas. I'm not talking about people communicating in the course of their duties, I'm talking about people that are singled out. This also happened with the miners too.

Militant left wingers can be very repressive toward people that don't follow their cause, that is part of their "collective" mentality.

 

[jon0844]

I have said I would volunteer for the same rate of pay as Seb Coe.

That's nice of you, given he's done quite a bit more work than you - yet you expect the same amount of money.

I wonder what would happen if all union members succeeded in overthrowing management (which is wasteful and full of idiots supposedly) and decided to run things on their own. Would they all be able to get organised and prove that they really could all do a better job than their bosses, or would it very quickly end up with some members taking charge and then wanting more money - or total and utter chaos?

 

[Oswyntail]

Unlikely that this would happen ...

What does "scab" mean?

 

[KA4C]

What does "scab" mean?

Why do you ask?

 

[Marklund]

That's nice of you, given he's done quite a bit more work than you - yet you expect the same amount of money.

Perhaps you should consider the difference between the "rate of pay" that you quoted, and "amount" that you posted?

It's a considerable one.

 

[Johnuk123]

P.C.S.U have called off the strike planned for Thursday.

http://news.sky.com/story/964835/planned-border-staff-strike-called-off

 

[Ferret]

Metroland, you'd be the first to moan if people started using 'ironic plays on words' to belittle your arguments.

You're also far too quick to lump everyone into the same group becuase it suits your argument - as I've attempted to explain to you, not every rail worker is some kind of millitant communist leftie! Strikes are annoying for sure - and I'm not sure they are necessarily the best way forwards, but I do think you could be far more objective in your analysis rather than just seeking to lambast the people who are striking.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps you should consider the difference between the "rate of pay" that you quoted, and "amount" that you posted?

It's a considerable one.

No it isn't. I am not suggesting you would get the total amount of money that he has for all the work he has done, but there's no way a volunteer should be saying that s/he should get paid the same money as Lord Coe, for whatever period of time they volunteer for.

And if people think that everyone deserves the same pay, they're deluded. On that basis, you'd only need a single union to fight for everyone to earn the same. Job done!

 

[Marklund]

No it isn't. I am not suggesting you would get the total amount of money that he has for all the work he has done, but there's no way a volunteer should be saying that s/he should get paid the same money as Lord Coe, for whatever period of time they volunteer for.

Actually, it is what you inferred. If one was being unkind, they may say you were twisting the original words to suit.

And if people think that everyone deserves the same pay, they're deluded. On that basis, you'd only need a single union to fight for everyone to earn the same. Job done!

If someone asks for the same Rate of Pay as the top man, that's their perogative. They'll just not get the job, will they!

Much like when they said the going rate to "volunteer" for the Olympics was £0.00 an hour, I didn't take up that lucrative offer.

 

[Metroland]

Excellent response and (rather sadly) exactly what I expected.

You,Sir,are a prime example of the hypocrasy that most rail staff find abhorrent.

We are expected to listen to your vitriol then,when questioned,you respond with the sort of ill-informed rubbish you've posted in this thread.

Of course,you're free to disagree with whomever you please but the language you're using is purely meant to atagonise.

If you can see this,please stop.

If you can't see this,you have a problem.


It's a crying shame that people of your type seem to take pleasure in blaming all the ills of the modern railway on frontline staff.

You claim to see the 'bigger picture' - perhaps you do although it's strange that your views seem so narrow on this particular point.

No doubt you'll treat this post with the same contempt as a few others.

Don't.

Read,think,respond.


"Blah blah blah"?

You know where you can shove that don't you?



Have a nice day.

Believe me I was tempted to respond with something much more insulting, but that would be sinking to your level.

Again, let's stick to the facts. Where have I blamed all the ills of society on front line rail staff?

If that's not an antagonistic remark I don't know what is.

My views are not narrow, they simply oppose yours.

The bigger picture is this.

In the EMT case I see guys on £50k a year plus walking out on the job because they are going to be £500 a year better off. They simply don't like it because the company is paying less in (even though that company has had a government bail out!). They are some how more expert than the people that say the pot is well funded. Why don't they invest that £500 in a slush fund of their own?

Their action inconveniences thousands of people. The only choice I have to 'fight back', is to make some remarks on a forum, which I think are perfectly valid.

Some have argued these are "ordinary workers". Let's examine that:

20k more a year than firefighter, double that of a nurse, double that of a teacher, double that of a police officer. Arguably many of these people have more difficult jobs.

source http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-12678661

Most graduates are not getting paid these amounts, yet some of these workers can't even spell!

These people are paid 'professional levels of pay', yet they don't behave like professionals. When they country really needs them they down tools to make a point like some petulant child.

If these people were cleaners on the minimum wage, working 14 hours a day, struggling to pay the bills, or the dairy farmers (who I actually really support) then I could understand it.

It's simply out and out greed and two fingers up to loyal passengers and the country as a whole.

You won't like what I have to say, but unless I support you fully you'd have some objection. I'd agree my language is to the point and raises some interesting questions, but quite honestly I'm fed up of being inconvenienced.

You should be able to fully justify this action, instead you'd rather attack me, a customer of EMT. For that reason I don't really care what you think, because you most definitely can't see the big picture.

 

[Pugwash]

Actually, it is what you inferred. If one was being unkind, they may say you were twisting the original words to suit.



If someone asks for the same Rate of Pay as the top man, that's their perogative. They'll just not get the job, will they!

Much like when they said the going rate to "volunteer" for the Olympics was £0.00 an hour, I didn't take up that lucrative offer.

I don't see why they should be allowed to recruit volunteers, the olympics is a commercial event and should be paying at least minimum wage to everyone working there.

 

[Marklund]

Most graduates are not getting paid these amounts, yet some of these workers can't even spell!

Are you talking about the Graduates who can't spell?
The CBI seems to have great reservations about the qualities of Graduates.

Source
And another
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't see why they should be allowed to recruit volunteers, the olympics is a commercial event and should be paying at least minimum wage to everyone working there.

100% agree with this.

 

[notadriver]

What should a train driver be paid then?

 

[Metroland]

A very good question.

It would be interesting to see what to rate of pay is if there were 'train driver licenses' anyone could apply for like a car, bus or truck driver, or a pilot - given the money, or opportunity.

Most of the rules could be learned by anyone at college or home study, the rule knowledge and traction knowledge by simulators, heritage railways could cash in and even provide some handling training. You can do it with planes and trucks, why not the railways?

Assuming then you had completely open access (I'm not saying this is even viable), you could then work out what the true going rate is.

Suffice to say, the unions would have less power, because you could replace drivers in a matter of a few weeks, maybe days.

I would suggest wages are somewhat inflated (maybe by 20-30%) because of barriers to entry, and the limited flexibility TOCs have to replace drivers who are not happy with their terms and conditions.

 

[wigwamman]

This is were capatilists get their knickers in a twist,a driver under a market system should be paid what the market dictates.
At present a driver is paid what the company is prepared to pay him,this is the golden rule of right wing economics.
Except when it doesn't suit their own financial intrests

 

[Metroland]

Except when it doesn't suit their own financial intrests

Or the financial interests of the staff. In the normal world, they would just leave and find some other employment with another TOC or even outside. That's what most other people do. Companies simply pay the going rate to attract the right people for the job. Most skilled jobs are not paid peanuts because you want to attract competent staff, and it's better to pay more to attract people will a better skill set.

 

[KA4C]

I would suggest wages are somewhat inflated (maybe by 20-30%) because of barriers to entry

What barriers would they be then, given the frequent adverts for trainee drivers by a number of TOCS and the large number of drivers out there for whom the job is a second career. Aside from obvious medical standards and pre-entry assessments (as in many roles these days), to satisfy your future employers that you should be able to be trained to do the job, prior to them expending huge sums training someone who won't make it

To be honest, you really do come across as someone who has an issue with the train driving grade

 

[jon0844]

Actually, it is what you inferred. If one was being unkind, they may say you were twisting the original words to suit.

If someone asks for the same Rate of Pay as the top man, that's their perogative. They'll just not get the job, will they!

Much like when they said the going rate to "volunteer" for the Olympics was £0.00 an hour, I didn't take up that lucrative offer.

I didn't twist any original words, I just said what I did and you were pedantic enough to twist my meaning.

So, you turned down the offer of volunteering for no pay - and others can say they'd do it if they were paid the same amount/rate of pay (or whatever) as the people at the top?

That's a perfectly acceptable view, if a little odd (in my opinion).

 

[notadriver]

A thought that occurred to me - if Easyjet could pay their airline captains 40k instead of £70k+ - they would. BA Captains - £105k+.

 

[Oswyntail]

Why do you ask?

Because I think the term, and its widespread understanding, signifies institutional bullying that is more widespread than some seem to admit.

I don't see why they should be allowed to recruit volunteers, the olympics is a commercial event and should be paying at least minimum wage to everyone working there.

Why? The event itself is not commercial, of course, even though it is sponsored by commercial entities. I am sure all the McDonalds, CocaCola etc staff who are working there are getting paid. As are security staff, cleaners etc etc.The volunteers I know of tend to be in the sport specific roles, looking after the participants, ground stewarding etc. And they are doing it to support their sport, thoroughly enjoying it so far.

 

[radamfi]

The continuous cycle of threat of strike -> improved pay -> threat of strike can only be halted if the industry puts its foot down and subsequently is prepared to be able to withstand an all out strike over a long period, potentially network wide. It would probably need Government backing to ensure that franchises are not terminated because of the disruption, and there would be a substantial economic cost, particularly in London, but it might work out cheaper for the taxpayer long term.

 

[Oswyntail]

This is were capatilists get their knickers in a twist,a driver under a market system should be paid what the market dictates.
At present a driver is paid what the company is prepared to pay him,this is the golden rule of right wing economics.
Except when it doesn't suit their own financial intrests

Oh come on. If the company gets enough drivers and retains them, then the pay rate is either what the market dictates or above. It is pure paranoia to state "driver is paid what the company is prepared to pay him" as if it some glorious insight into "right wing economics", and to imply that somehow the evil, fat-cat bosses are oppressing the poor drivers on their barely living wage

 

[lyndhurst25]

Enough of all this money and politics causing arguments!

A fair solution would be to pay the operators of vehicles an hourly rate dependent on the difficulty of their job. Since "difficulty" is hard to define objectively then we could use the proxy of "axes of freedom" requiring control.

Train drivers - 1 axis of freedom - faster/slower
Bus drivers - 2 axes of freedom - faster/slower, left/right
Airline pilots - 3 axes of freedom - faster/slower, left/right, up/down

Therefore bus drivers would be paid twice the amount of train drivers and airline pilots would be paid three times as much. This method is scientifically proven and you all know that it makes sense.