Suggestions for Dawlish avoiding route(s)

[21C101]

Apologies if this has been discussed elsewhere, but Devon and Cornwall had a state-visit from David Cameron and George Osborne last week, seemingly favouring the L & SW route via Okehampton as an alternative and back-up to Dawlish.

http://www.modern-railways.com/view_article.asp?ID=8632&pubID=37&t=0&s=0&sO=both&p=1&i=10

This, of course, will be quietly dropped once the election is safely out the way but what caught my eye was the proposal to create a dedicated franchise for the South West - shades of 'Wessex Trains'. The uncritical local papers broadly welcome this, but my nasty suspicious mind suggests it is a device to hive off the loss-making services from Great Western and South West Trains rather like Northern from Transpennine. It also rather neatly solves the problem of what to do about non-electrified through services, by requiring a change at Exeter(GW) or Salisbury(SWT). It also places the onus on local-authorities to make funding decisions under the guise of 'localism'. Devon and Cornwall is about to face a massive cull to its bus-network which makes me fear for the rail-network as well. I am interested in your thoughts before I make representations to local MPs.

Since when has Salisbury to Exeter been loss making?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

It'd make a lot more money if someone with some gumption made the decision to redouble it and resignal it throughout, so you could run a mix of fast & stopping services.

I suspect some political skullduggery is there to prevent such a thing happening as it would affect the FGW mainline, as The Mule is the fastest route to London.

 

[21C101]

It'd make a lot more money if someone with some gumption made the decision to redouble it and resignal it throughout, so you could run a mix of fast & stopping services.

I suspect some political skullduggery is there to prevent such a thing happening as it would affect the FGW mainline, as The Mule is the fastest route to London.

I did wonder if such tribal/political considerations were not entirely unconnected to the absolutely eye watering publsihed cost of reinstating via Okehampton.

Interesting that there now seems to be a party political split with the PM championing Okehampton and Labour supporting a Dawlish Diversion.

 

[muddythefish]

Interesting that there now seems to be a party political split with the PM championing Okehampton and Labour supporting a Dawlish Diversion.

So the end result is that nothing will happen. Who needs politics ?

 

[D1009]

Interesting that there now seems to be a party political split with the PM championing Okehampton and Labour supporting a Dawlish Diversion.

Is that surprising? Opposition parties will always support popular measures irrespective of the relative costs.

 

[yorksrob]

Is that surprising? Opposition parties will always support popular measures irrespective of the relative costs.

Has anybody tested how comparatively popular the two routes are with the public? As far as I can see, Labour seem to have based their entire position on the views of a few businessmen in Plymouth Chamber of Commerce.

 

[Busaholic]

Has anybody tested how comparatively popular the two routes are with the public? As far as I can see, Labour seem to have based their entire position on the views of a few businessmen in Plymouth Chamber of Commerce.

There seems to be an obsession with some politicians in Plymouth, and the business people that pull their strings, to get a train service that takes less than three hours to reach London, regardless of how irrelevant that is to the rest of the region and how many station stops that would have to be skipped (Exeter? Reading?) - no, I don't think so either. A route via Okehampton that was juiced, something that could happen decades before tunnels under South Devon, could actually achieve what they want if combined with significant doubling of Salisbury to Exeter.

 

[yorksrob]

There seems to be an obsession with some politicians in Plymouth, and the business people that pull their strings, to get a train service that takes less than three hours to reach London, regardless of how irrelevant that is to the rest of the region and how many station stops that would have to be skipped (Exeter? Reading?) - no, I don't think so either. A route via Okehampton that was juiced, something that could happen decades before tunnels under South Devon, could actually achieve what they want if combined with significant doubling of Salisbury to Exeter.

Indeed. There are various potential options for speeding up services but Labour seem fixated on rubbishing the Okehampton route reopening.

 

[Cliveblackpool]

There seems to be an obsession with some politicians in Plymouth, and the business people that pull their strings, to get a train service that takes less than three hours to reach London, regardless of how irrelevant that is to the rest of the region and how many station stops that would have to be skipped (Exeter? Reading?) - no, I don't think so either. A route via Okehampton that was juiced, something that could happen decades before tunnels under South Devon, could actually achieve what they want if combined with significant doubling of Salisbury to Exeter.

Good points. The Okehampton route would benefit Plymouth far more than just a Dawlish Diversion.
Possibility of transforming public transport in North Cornwall & Devon.
Connecting bus eg Newquay Bodmin Launceston (Bude) etc to Park & Ride at Sourton / Okehampton - easy access to Plymouth Exeter etc.
Competition for FGW.
I would use Waterloo to Plymouth, and to Cornwall, even if it meant changing at Plymouth, especially with fast electric trains.

 

[34104]

Good points. The Okehampton route would benefit Plymouth far more than just a Dawlish Diversion.
Possibility of transforming public transport in North Cornwall & Devon.
Connecting bus eg Newquay Bodmin Launceston (Bude) etc to Park & Ride at Sourton / Okehampton - easy access to Plymouth Exeter etc.
Competition for FGW.
I would use Waterloo to Plymouth, and to Cornwall, even if it meant changing at Plymouth, especially with fast electric trains.

If Plymouth to Waterloo did indeed become the main artery,i wonder if there would be any advantage in building a new station at St Budeaux, closing Victoria Road and Ferry Road and thus negating the need for passengers going to Cornwall to go into Plymouth at all? It would certainly seem to go some way in solving the much quoted problem of the time needed by Cornwall trains to reverse in Plymouth station, even if it did mean an extra stop. I believe there was a proposal by BR to do just that in the 1950's,when the Southern region still had it's independent route through Devonport but it didn't materialise. Possibly food for thought.

 

[CdBrux]

It seems many think a 'cheap and cheerful' solution to re-instate via Okehampton, i.e. for potentially much less than the cost announced by NR, is possible. If so perhaps the way forward is something like this:

1. Cheap re-instatement, single track, but aligned so a second could be laid next to it with minimum disruption and, short of new bridges or other major incremental expense items, made easier to electrify in the future
2. Introduce limited service (outside peak and what was already intended for Tavistock) - maybe a good place to use the D78's if that project is a success? Make sure local communities are fully involved to maximise chances of success (timetable, marketing, full transparency of finances, ...)
3. Use as Dawlish bypass on the few occasions it's required
4. If local useage shows a success then look to build up services / upgrade trains etc...

So get something in and revenue earning for low capex, achieve the Dawlish bypass, and build up patronage making any further investments if and when justified.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

The problem with that is put in the bare minimum, then later on when it's too late, it means that the line gets shut down again for major infrastructure works at increased costs, that also causes major inconvenience to those who've come to rely on the new service, that then tends to drive the custom that has been built up to vanish again!

 

[Rapidash]

I'd laugh my head off if the Dartmoor route kept having problems with snow Gets more snow than Dawlish gets wrecked

 

[yorksrob]

I'd laugh my head off if the Dartmoor route kept having problems with snow Gets more snow than Dawlish gets wrecked

I can't even remember the last time the mighty Settle - Carlisle got snowed in, so I doubt the issue will be as great as it once was.

However, even if it did happen, it would be quite unlucky for it to happen at the same time that Dawlish was closed, which is the key point

 

[HowardGWR]

I'd laugh my head off if the Dartmoor route kept having problems with snow Gets more snow than Dawlish gets wrecked

This could be established by reference to the history book. I presume the LSWR /SR budget ran to snow ploughs?

 

[Ash Bridge]

This could be established by reference to the history book. I presume the LSWR /SR budget ran to snow ploughs?

The exceptionally bad winter of 1963 springs to mind, drifts of over 4mtrs. In the Sourton area, a 2-6-0 got snowed in for a while, but the ploughs got through eventually with plenty of manpower also in attendance.

 

[HowardGWR]

The exceptionally bad winter of 1963 springs to mind, drifts of over 4mtrs. In the Sourton area, a 2-6-0 got snowed in for a while, but the ploughs got through eventually with plenty of manpower also in attendance.

Thanks. I was aware that similar feats were performed over the Mendips in 1963 and so I imagine that with modern machinery, this would not be an insuperable problem. Goodness me, they manage in the Alps.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Thanks. I was aware that similar feats were performed over the Mendips in 1963 and so I imagine that with modern machinery, this would not be an insuperable problem. Goodness me, they manage in the Alps.

Indeed, mind you 1963 & 1947 I believe, really were winters out of the ordinary by all accounts.

 

[Bald Rick]

Goodness me, they manage in the Alps.

Not in my experience, at least in France.

 

[yorksrob]

Realistically though, winters have had a tendency to become milder in recent decades (and I say this even having read about something called the "big beast from the East" coming over to freeze us all for the next five days), whereas storms have had a tendency to become more ferocious and frequent. This works in favour of having the route through Okehampton.

And lets face it, we don't know exactly how climate change will affect our weather in the future, so we might move back to harsher snowier winters at some stage, favouring the coastal route. Then who knows, it might change back again. It just means it's better to have two routes to Plymouth.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Realistically though, winters have had a tendency to become milder in recent decades (and I say this even having read about something called the "big beast from the East" coming over to freeze us all for the next five days), whereas storms have had a tendency to become more ferocious and frequent. This works in favour of having the route through Okehampton.

And lets face it, we don't know exactly how climate change will affect our weather in the future, so we might move back to harsher snowier winters at some stage, favouring the coastal route. Then who knows, it might change back again. It just means it's better to have two routes to Plymouth.

On a side note, we're now seeing yet again what happens when there's no diversionary route for services (Harbury), so having the Okehampton route can only be an excellent opportunity.

 

[The Ham]

On a side note, we're now seeing yet again what happens when there's no diversionary route for services (Harbury), so having the Okehampton route can only be an excellent opportunity.

It also shows why the Chiltern Line (although useful for many reason) shouldn't be relied upon (for the long term) as a second mainline route to Birmingham to provide the required capacity rather than building a new route (but then that is really a matter for another thread).

 

[Trainbuff]

The LSWR line was in fact used some 9 months after it closed. On 19th/20th February 1969 the line had a snow plough pass over it and a freight train ran on the 20th from Plymouth to Exeter.
Zealous was the loco and it failed. The crew had to go to a house to seek help and the occupants could not believe they were railwaymen! The train was rescued by a Western and ran the length of the line. This was because the Dawlish route was blocked by snow!!!!!
In fact the current route skirts the southern slopes of Dartmoor in any case.
Trains these days seem to be the last things that stop running. A few years back trains were still running from Scotland to the West Country despite severe snow falls. The winter of 1963 was exceptional

 

[Ash Bridge]

The LSWR line was in fact used some 9 months after it closed. On 19th/20th February 1969 the line had a snow plough pass over it and a freight train ran on the 20th from Plymouth to Exeter.
Zealous was the loco and it failed. The crew had to go to a house to seek help and the occupants could not believe they were railwaymen! The train was rescued by a Western and ran the length of the line. This was because the Dawlish route was blocked by snow!!!!!
In fact the current route skirts the southern slopes of Dartmoor in any case.
Trains these days seem to be the last things that stop running. A few years back trains were still running from Scotland to the West Country despite severe snow falls. The winter of 1963 was exceptional

I think it was the T.W.E. Roche book "The Withered Arm" where I read about this event, though it fails to mention the locomotives that were involved, so thanks for that detail what it did mention was how the local newspapers slated BR for not bowing to the howls of protest against the closure from communities along the route, yet they could reopen it no problem when it suited them!

 

[gordonthemoron]

The winter of 1991 wasn't too good for BR either, wrong sort of snow caused 91s to pack up. Fortunately they had enough HSTs to maintain a basic service

 

[21C101]

I think it was the T.W.E. Roche book "The Withered Arm" where I read about this event, though it fails to mention the locomotives that were involved, so thanks for that detail what it did mention was how the local newspapers slated BR for not bowing to the howls of protest against the closure from communities along the route, yet they could reopen it no problem when it suited them!

I believe it was 18 months after closure. Apparently after the fuss in the local newspapers BR HQ ordered the track ripped up to stop the local management doing such outrageous things. I've also heard that only one line should have been ripped up but the contractors got it wrong and ripped up both. One or both may be an urban myth

I'm quite astounded that Labour are so negative about reopening the Southern route and wanting a Dawlish diversion. Typical of them to want something that costs twice as much taxpayers money (and would probably result in Teignmouth and Dawlish stations closing the first time the sea wall had a major breach after the diversion was built).

I gather though from correspondence on a Southern related email group, that the geology for building a Dawlish diversion is not good and there are fears of serious landslides from the cliffs above the railway as well as the sea wall. Also the rest of the south Devon route is infested with sharp gradients and steep curves on hillsides.

Consideration to refurbishing rather than replacing Meldon appears to be conceivable now. I suspect there is a lot more to this than has been released for public consumption so far.

As for competition with FGW. I'm sure that's wholly unrelated to the whole idea is being poo-poohed in some quarters.....

The other thing is that with Tavistock almost a given, you are only talking about a 15 mile gap, about half the length of the Waverley route reinstatement.

 

[Chris125]

I'm quite astounded that Labour are so negative about reopening the Southern route and wanting a Dawlish diversion.

Why? Unlike the Conservatives they have no electoral reason to suggest an option which objectively makes the least economic sense.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How much of the old LSWR has been built on?

 

[21C101]

How much of the old LSWR has been built on?

S*d All.

Three or four houses at Tavy Station, one house in the school grounds to the north of Tavistock and thats it.

 

[yorksrob]

Why? Unlike the Conservatives they have no electoral reason to suggest an option which objectively makes the least economic sense.

Believing that it makes more economic sense to spend billions speeding up a journey by ten minutes (the vast majority of whose passengers would have made the journey regardless), than to provide decent public transport for towns and communities across Devon that have to make do without, is a suspension of disbelief worthy of the theatre, not objectivity.