Suggestions for enabling a rail link to Skelmersdale

[bluenoxid]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-for-future-skelmersdale-train-station.205515

The government has recently announced a fund that can be bid into for projects which can be delivered inside 18 months.

Obviously the extension itself couldn't be guaranteed to be deliverable in that time frame, but is there any reason why a station couldn't be quickly constructed without having to go through the grip process?

If a corridor in can be agreed, and maybe it already has if demolitions are taking place, a station is just a building with platforms at a predetermined height and spaced sufficiently apart.

Why not just get on with this now?

This is moving us to speculative but an easier implementation than the station might be the power supply upgrade and existing infrastructure improvement (additional tracks) required to serve Skelmersdale.

The problem is most of this probably is nowhere near advanced design stage so it won’t be delivered in 18 months.

 

[Camden]

This is moving us to speculative but an easier implementation than the station might be the power supply upgrade and existing infrastructure improvement (additional tracks) required to serve Skelmersdale.

The problem is most of this probably is nowhere near advanced design stage so it won’t be delivered in 18 months.

The latter part is the reason for suggesting the station. Without the track and wires, that's a fairly simple construct especially with a modular design. The concourse, platform and access roads could all be completed inside 18 months.

 

[Ianno87]

The latter part is the reason for suggesting the station. Without the track and wires, that's a fairly simple construct especially with a modular design. The concourse, platform and access roads could all be completed inside 18 months.

...only to find that without having designed the railway part, the station then needs to be demolished and re-constructed at considerable expense to fit the actual railway alignment.

 

[Camden]

...only to find that without having designed the railway part, the station then needs to be demolished and re-constructed at considerable expense to fit the actual railway alignment.

I'm assuming that could be eliminated as an issue, naturally. My knowledge of the location leads me to believe that there are some things which can be certain, one of which is the alignment and orientation of the platforms.

So far, I haven't heard any real reasons why this building couldn't happen.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm assuming that could be eliminated as an issue, naturally. My knowledge of the location leads me to believe that there are some things which can be certain, one of which is the alignment and orientation of the platforms.

So now we are adding track design into the scope.

So far, I haven't heard any real reasons why this building couldn't happen.

There is no physical reason why it couldn't happen. There are lots of reasons, which I suspect you wont want to hear, why it shouldn't happen as you suggest.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm assuming that could be eliminated as an issue, naturally. My knowledge of the location leads me to believe that there are some things which can be certain, one of which is the alignment and orientation of the platforms.

So far, I haven't heard any real reasons why this building couldn't happen.

Alignment design is vertical as well as horizontal. Too high or low and you've just added cost to the civils works of the railway to create the necessary embankments / cuttings to match. And added environmental constraint in the flood relief consequences and noise impacts.

Full alignment design isn't just drawing a nice line on an OS map.

 

[F262YTJ]

The Skelmersdale scale extension should surely make a profit linking one of the poorest served towns ,public transport wise, to the Merseyrail network.

Apparently Lancashire County Council have sold or are in the process of selling a former school in the middle of Skem for a token £1 for demolition and construction of a station.

Also is the Headbolt Lane project nearing the construction phase too? This is part of the same scheme as well iirc.

To bring back towards topic projects like this, and possible extension to Preston from Ormskirk are part of the reason Merseytravel included an option to buy more 777s .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Connecting Skem to Wigan and Manchester by rail would also likely increase usage on what is presently a very quiet branch line.

 

[F262YTJ]

Connecting Skem to Wigan and Manchester by rail would also likely increase usage on what is presently a very quiet branch line.

I agree apparently the extension into Skem is not too far at all taking a spur off the Kirkby to Wigan line which already serves Upholland a couple of miles outside.

 

[chiltern trev]

The Skelmersdale scale extension should surely make a profit linking one of the poorest served towns ,public transport wise, to the Merseyrail network.

Apparently Lancashire County Council have sold or are in the process of selling a former school in the middle of Skem for a token £1 for demolition and construction of a station.

Also is the Headbolt Lane project nearing the construction phase too? This is part of the same scheme as well iirc.

To bring back towards topic projects like this, and possible extension to Preston from Ormskirk are part of the reason Merseytravel included an option to buy more 777s .

As well as future services, etc, if you have a good procurement manager then any new fleet order will have an option to buy more of the same - do you can buy more at the same price (more or less) as the first batch. I think it should be mandatory for any fleet order and the future order option should be transferable to any other TOC etc.

 

[Meerkat]

This is a proper project connecting a decent sized town in multiple directions, using only service lengthening/shortening.
just get on with this instead of wasting money on consultant slide decks on nonsense Beeching reversal fantasies!

 

[Bald Rick]

This is a proper project connecting a decent sized town in multiple directions, using only service lengthening/shortening.
just get on with this instead of wasting money on consultant slide decks on nonsense Beeching reversal fantasies!

Who is going to design it if not a consultant? Or get the necessary planning consent? Or keep the public informed? Etc.

 

[Meerkat]

Who is going to design it if not a consultant? Or get the necessary planning consent? Or keep the public informed? Etc.

I think you misunderstand me - I mean focus resources on projects like this rather than waste cash on feasibility studies for Beeching reversals fantasies (Isle of Wight? Hahahahahah!)

 

[Bald Rick]

I think you misunderstand me - I mean focus resources on projects like this rather than waste cash on feasibility studies for Beeching reversals fantasies (Isle of Wight? Hahahahahah!)

I did misunderstand you, and we are therefore in 100% agreement.

For one reason or another many of the ‘Restoring your Railway’ proposals have issues which are simply insurmountable without significant expenditure that makes them unviable. (Or in some cases, even more unviable than they were). Whilst it will be very difficult politically, they need stopping now, so that the better schemes (like this one) can have the resources they need to be developed and delivered quickly.

 

[WAO]

It is a utter waste of resources to create a large modern (1967), expensively equipped college, run it badly, close it without security so that it is heavily vandalised and then want £2M to clear the site!

It seems quite appropriate then to replace it with the terminus of a 4km branch line costing up to £200M (the route is mostly fairly level West Lancs farm land or low value warehousing etc). For that price we could expect a station with six terminal roads, an overall roof and a 4* hotel on the front!

What could be achieved in 18 months is a bus link from Rainford (Jn) to Upholland Sta, along the spine B5312 road, serving much of this unhappy town, although some road improvements would be welcome. If Merseyrail's new stock could form a usable through service East, then custom would grow apace and perhaps even justify a branch - the potential is high. As has been pointed out above some Yorkshire thrift would be appropriate.

Taking cover...

WAO

 

[Wolfie]

It is a utter waste of resources to create a large modern (1967), expensively equipped college, run it badly, close it without security so that it is heavily vandalised and then want £2M to clear the site!

It seems quite appropriate then to replace it with the terminus of a 4km branch line costing up to £200M (the route is mostly fairly level West Lancs farm land or low value warehousing etc). For that price we could expect a station with six terminal roads, an overall roof and a 4* hotel on the front!

What could be achieved in 18 months is a bus link from Rainford (Jn) to Upholland Sta, along the spine B5312 road, serving much of this unhappy town, although some road improvements would be welcome. If Merseyrail's new stock could form a usable through service East, then custom would grow apace and perhaps even justify a branch - the potential is high. As has been pointed out above some Yorkshire thrift would be appropriate.

Taking cover...

WAO

Said Yorkshire thrift was to standards which haven't been acceptable for over 30 years. They have, from the extensive repairs discussed, also potentially now have cumulatively cost more than would have been the case had better quality, more money been spent on initial installation in the first place.

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst it will be very difficult politically, they need stopping now, so that the better schemes (like this one) can have the resources they need to be developed and delivered quickly.

agree 100%. It wont happen quickly enougth as there is political capital to be won pretending otherwise, especially in the "red wall" areas recently won by Johnson

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you misunderstand me - I mean focus resources on projects like this rather than waste cash on feasibility studies for Beeching reversals fantasies (Isle of Wight? Hahahahahah!)

Skem sort of is a Beeching reversal (unless it closed earlier), but the old station was in Old Skem/Blaguegate so wouldn't be useful now (it'd be similar to Upholland in being on the edge).

 

[Ianno87]

Skem sort of is a Beeching reversal (unless it closed earlier), but the old station was in Old Skem/Blaguegate so wouldn't be useful now (it'd be similar to Upholland in being on the edge).

I do wish the whole "Beeching Reversal" term would be dropped more generally.

The priority should be "New Railways for the future"; ones fulfilling a transport need with a credible case. By, coincidence, of course, these may have some similarity to a closed line.

In Skem's case, the transport need by a new line is vastly different from the original Skem station, partly due to Skem itself being a very different place, with different needs, nowadays.

 

[cle]

What would the spur be? And would it face Liverpool or Manchester? I'm still unsure as to the overall plan.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What would the spur be? And would it face Liverpool or Manchester? I'm still unsure as to the overall plan.

It'd leave the Kirkby-Wigan line not far after Rainford Junction and head pretty much due north to the Glenburn High site next to the Concourse via the existing road network (not as a tram, you'd de-dual the road to provide a proper fenced railway on the other side - no roads in Skem are congested).

Edit: no need to de-dual, the road involved is already single carriageway but with a reserved width for dualling (as per much of MK). However the existing road would need to be moved onto the reserved space to the east, as the Glenburn site is on the west side of the road, with the railway replacing the road as-is.

The likely situation is to have it facing both ways, and you would operate a Liverpool-Skem service (Merseyrail) and a separate Skem-Manchester service (Northern), so moving the Kirkby dead end to a dual-platform traditional end-on terminus (ideally one island) at Skem instead.

 

[geoffk]

The likely situation is to have it facing both ways, and you would operate a Liverpool-Skem service (Merseyrail) and a separate Skem-Manchester service (Northern), so moving the Kirkby dead end to a dual-platform traditional end-on terminus (ideally one island) at Skem instead.

A through line would need to be kept for as long as the "binliners" from Knowsley were running, so a triangular junction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A through line would need to be kept for as long as the "binliners" from Knowsley were running, so a triangular junction.

Indeed, though passenger services would not use the through line.

 

[EllieAquitrain]

I hadn't realised quite how far Skelmersdale is from Kirkby - a similar distance to Liverpool-Kirkby again, although with not much inbetween except for Rainford. How much fuss can be expected from people losing their direct services to/from the Wigan direction?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I hadn't realised quite how far Skelmersdale is from Kirkby - a similar distance to Liverpool-Kirkby again, although with not much inbetween except for Rainford. How much fuss can be expected from people losing their direct services to/from the Wigan direction?

Given how quiet the line is - probably one of the quietest in the area, "almost nobody" is probably your answer. Only Kirkby and Rainford Junction (a tiny settlement quite distant from Rainford itself, certainly too far for commuters to be likely to walk and down a country lane with I think no pavement) would be affected. Those from Fazakerley and Rice Lane would have slightly lengthened journey times. In my experience (as someone who has travelled from the Ormskirk branch of Merseyrail to Wigan/Manchester many, many times) if you're not on the Kirkby branch you'll just go via Lime St and not even consider it for going to Manchester as it's slow and infrequent, and the demand for Wigan itself isn't that high.

Those from Rainford itself (still not that big) could just drive to Skem instead. I'd expect it will have a decently-sized car park; the ex-Glenburn site is quite large and land values in Skem are not high.

 

[Meerkat]

Does Merseyside have green belt?
The gap between Rainford and the railway looks a good place to put a lot of new housing, with decent road access and a station. That could help fund the extension from Kirkby.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does Merseyside have green belt?
The gap between Rainford and the railway looks a good place to put a lot of new housing, with decent road access and a station. That could help fund the extension from Kirkby.....

I believe it does but I don't know if it'd affect development there. I suspect not.

There's no housing shortage on Merseyside, really, and prices are relatively low. That's why there's not much new build there.

 

[Meerkat]

I believe it does but I don't know if it'd affect development there. I suspect not.

There's no housing shortage on Merseyside, really, and prices are relatively low. That's why there's not much new build there.

And I assume from what you have said that being on the same line as Kirkby and Skem would be an issue in building for richer commuters!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I assume from what you have said that being on the same line as Kirkby and Skem would be an issue in building for richer commuters!

Rainford is fairly small, smaller than Ormskirk. But I doubt going through a dodgy area would put them off, it's not like Walton/Kirkdale/Sandhills are that nice and Ormskirk passengers seem to survive.

 

[Gareth]

There's no housing shortage on Merseyside, really, and prices are relatively low. That's why there's not much new build there.

In Liverpool, at least, building more houses has been a fairly hot political issue in recent years and one of the incumbent mayor's priorities. Near enough all urban areas in the UK are affected by this, to a greater or lesser extent and it seems to be down to not-fit-for-purpose national planning laws dating back to the 1940s and a quasi-corrupt incentive for existing property owners to not see their property values go down due to more supply in the market. It's a big downtick towards the potential standard of living in this country.

Whilst I'm not a fan of urban sprawl: where new housing must be built on undeveloped land, land like that between Rainford and the station is far more logical than a completely new area with no existing settlement. The prior existence of a railway station is a big plus. New Lane, Bescar Lane and Hoscar are other station localities that could be worth looking into, with regards to new residential.