Sun front page- iPads for Train Drivers

[Bletchleyite]

So it's not the issue of using iPads (tablets etc.) but more the issues about demanding extra pay for using them as an aid to carry out their duties. Extra pay, what a shocker !? No wonder the public are angry.

Wonder what Claudia thinks....

In the private sector using new tools to do your job more easily doesn't get extra pay and nor should it. Change is a given in business.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In the private sector using new tools to do your job more easily doesn't get extra pay and nor should it. Change is a given in business.

In many public sector roles, such as mine, there is no extra pay either

 

[Bletchleyite]

In many public sector roles, such as mine, there is no extra pay either

Quite.

Your salary is the money your are given for doing what you are asked to within your specified hours using whatever toolsets your employer wishes. They need to provide training for the toolset and that's it.

I'm with the Sun on this one (for once) - extra pay for this is nonsensical.

 

[LowLevel]

Never been a fan of new technology payments where the kit benefits me. I tend to just use it anyway if provided unless the union ballots against it like Avanti have with ticket scanning in which case I'll respect that.

It's always seemed to be a case of the only thing of any value is cold hard cash, even if it's only a small amount, and any benefits to you personally are of no relevance.

Personally I much prefer electronic notices and rule books that I can use the search function on to find the bit I want vs paper I have to manually flick through and update.

 

[43066]

Your salary is the money your are given for doing what you are asked to within your specified hours using whatever toolsets your employer wishes. They need to provide training for the toolset and that's it.

On the railway working practices and “toolsets” need to be agreed with the unions representing the workforce. There are good reasons for that.

In the private sector using new tools to do your job more easily doesn't get extra pay and nor should it. Change is a given in business.

Perhaps not explicitly, but if people become more productive it’s reasonable that they might expect recognition of that. This might be dealt with by a pay rise, or a bonus, for example.

Personally I much prefer electronic notices and rule books that I can use the search function on to find the bit I want vs paper I have to manually flick through and update.

Agreed. I’d like the payment too, though .

 

[DoubleO]

I've also always felt that additional payments, either one off or salaried, for being given new equipment to make your job easier, is a bit of a joke.

 

[Bantamzen]

So it's not the issue of using iPads (tablets etc.) but more the issues about demanding extra pay for using them as an aid to carry out their duties. Extra pay, what a shocker !? No wonder the public are angry.

Wonder what Claudia thinks....

If it were a brand new way of working that required additional training, acquiring new technology skills, and would be a complete departure from current working practices I could understand the unions wanting increased payments.

But using a touch screen table instead of books, I mean I would expect most drivers by now be used to touch screen tech in their personal lives. Coming next week, unions demand extra payments for new hand dryers in messroom facilities...

 

[mpthomson]

No idea but if it's in the Sun of course treat it as BS until a decent source reports it.

By the way, barely anyone buys the sun anymore. Sales down about 80 per cent in past 15-20 years. Still some seem to think its a big influence and what drivel they put out gets covered on BBC News etc.

Widely reported across the media now.

 

[LCC106]

Abolishing the need to carry the rule book, won, sectional appendix and who knows however many traction manuals depending on your route and traction card will make an immense difference to drivers and other train crew where relevant. They weigh heavy, bags aren’t designed to hold so much and it can cause injury to backs etc. Some companies don’t even issue a sectional appendix these days so how can you be expected to know everything without a reference point?

There will need to be an element of training to use the equipment. Hope no-one’s suggesting they should do it in their own time for no reward? There are still some drivers who don’t own a computer or laptop and using one would be like learning a foreign language for them. Some still use brick style Nokia phones.

All for using them safely but if I’m upskilling and expected to consult it while carrying out my professional duties then yes, I want a payment to acknowledge the additional training I’m required to have.

Edited for spelling and using old phones

 

[mpthomson]

Abolishing the need to carry the rule book, won, sectional appendix and who knows however many traction manuals depending on your route and traction card will make an immense difference to drivers and other train crew where relevant. They weigh heavy, bags aren’t designed to hold so much and it can cause injury to backs etc. Some companies don’t even issue a sectional appendix these days so how can you be expected to know everything without a reference point?

There will need to be an element of training to use the equipment. Hope no-one’s suggesting they should do it in their own time for no reward? There are still some drivers who don’t own a computer or laptop and using one would be like learning a foreign language for them.

All for using them safely but if I’m ups killing and expected to consult it while carrying out my professional duties then yes, I want a payment to acknowledge the additional training I’m required to have.

Using a tablet for most of the current workforce won't be upskilling. It's no different from using a smartphone in level of difficulty.

I introduced a tablet based stock control system about 3mths ago in my workplace. The training for it was an hour per person and there have been no issues with it, and that's including for people stating that they were IT illiterate..

 

[Bletchleyite]

Training should be in company time, yes. But there should not be specific payments for new tech.

 

[43066]

Training should be in company time, yes. But there should not be specific payments for new tech.

The other issue that can come up is that the new tech reduces earnings, as has been the case with the move to e tickets meaning less commission for guards from ticket sales. Hence unions have pushed for payments for scanning e tickets.

Admittedly that isn’t really the same as drivers using iPads, but it’s part of the reason why technology payments are a thing on the railway.

 

[GB]

All for using them safely but if I’m upskilling and expected to consult it while carrying out my professional duties then yes, I want a payment to acknowledge the additional training I’m required to have.

Up skilling? You'll be asked/shown how to log in, check emails or read a PDF, not write code... though I agree any training someone might genuinely need should be in company time. Do you get paid extra for driving a train that has a high degree of computerisation vs an older train?

 

[AlterEgo]

I agree that extra pay is mad. It’s a Spanish practice baked into the railway. Technology should be used to increase productivity and shouldn’t really come with any dead weight of a bonkers “technology payment” to detract from the benefits.

It’s different if the technology reduces commission or earnings; the scanning payment some guards get seems completely fair to me.

 

[12LDA28C]

Abolishing the need to carry the rule book, won, sectional appendix and who knows however many traction manuals depending on your route and traction card will make an immense difference to drivers and other train crew where relevant. They weigh heavy, bags aren’t designed to hold so much and it can cause injury to backs etc. Some companies don’t even issue a sectional appendix these days so how can you be expected to know everything without a reference point?

Which TOCs actually mandate that you need to carry your Rule Book and Sectional Appendix in your driver's bag whilst on duty?

 

[LCC106]

Do you get paid extra for driving a train that has a high degree of computerisation vs an older train?

Not relevant to me at present but some companies do negotiate additional payments for learning newer traction, yes.

Which TOCs actually mandate that you need to carry your Rule Book and Sectional Appendix in your driver's bag whilst on duty?

I can’t speak for everyone but a former employer required it. I personally want to carry the rule book as it’s good to consult it during times of disruption to check you’re doing things correctly.

 

[thruud]

As a passenger with an interest in rail, and a public sector / military background I rarely comment here. I do recognise that in the main many parts of the rail sector have lots of genuine grounds for strike action and concerns about safety and pay. I also recognise that there is a lot of misreporting too that doesn't help.

But, with all that said, this is a ditch that is simply not worth dying on. Technology changes, tablets are widespread now and I'd be comfortable assuming that the vast (95% plus) majority of those impacted own a smart phone or tablet and use it daily for personal reasons. Going on strike for extra money to access a tablet and inconveniencing hundreds of thousands of people who do this sort of change regularly does not help make the case for the rail sector. If you want public support for the fights that matter, don't pick fights for the sake of it that burn away at public goodwill.

 

[357]

My main issue when issued with a blackberry, then iPad, then Android tablet was that the technical support is non existent and not designed for a company with mobile staff and so many locations.

IT at one previous TOC I worked for would often say "just pop in to St Mary Axe" (head office) for it to be looked at.

Station staff wouldn't get permission to leave their post for three hours minimum so would be expected to go on their own time. Drivers have their days diagrammed from start to finish.

Also, there is an expectation to be charging devices at home and checking emails etc in your own time. Not such an issue at my current TOC but at my previous one you'd regularly get sarcastic comments if you hadn't replied to an email thread.

It reached tipping point for me once when I got an email from my manager to both my work and personal email addresses asking me to call him immediately, I was on a plane and had just landed in Africa and thought one of my colleagues (small close knit team) had died or was seriously ill. It was so that he could ask me a question about a retail unit on a station. He was an absolute arse on the phone about my delayed reply and I made a grievance to get a days annual leave credited to me because I spent a day of my vacation sorting out a managers mess.

 

[43066]

Do you get paid extra for driving a train that has a high degree of computerisation vs an older train?

We will be expecting some sort of financial deal when our new fleet comes in, usually wrapped up into a training agreement.

As a passenger with an interest in rail, and a public sector / military background I rarely comment here. I do recognise that in the main many parts of the rail sector have lots of genuine grounds for strike action and concerns about safety and pay. I also recognise that there is a lot of misreporting too that doesn't help.

But, with all that said, this is a ditch that is simply not worth dying on. Technology changes, tablets are widespread now and I'd be comfortable assuming that the vast (95% plus) majority of those impacted own a smart phone or tablet and use it daily for personal reasons. Going on strike for extra money to access a tablet and inconveniencing hundreds of thousands of people who do this sort of change regularly does not help make the case for the rail sector. If you want public support for the fights that matter, don't pick fights for the sake of it that burn away at public goodwill.

I do agree with the thrust of what you’re saying, but that article is misleading in that it’s trying to link the tech payments with the current strikes, which are nothing to do with that at all. People are not striking this week over tech payments! It doesn’t even make clear which TOC is involved. Risible stuff, but to be expected from The Sun.

 

[mikeb42]

Perhaps not explicitly, but if people become more productive it’s reasonable that they might expect recognition of that. This might be dealt with by a pay rise, or a bonus, for example.

In most highly skilled professions (which train drivers surely are based on total remuneration among other things) you are indeed rewarded for constantly acquiring new skills and adapting to completely new ways of working.

Your reward is that your inertia doesn't render you completely useless. You don't then end up either being made redundant, unable to get your next contract or otherwise removed from the workforce. The loss of your ability to carry out your profession and subsequent long term unemployment doesn't follow.

Why any highly skilled, high status, highly paid professional expects to receive yet more financial reward for simply making the minimum effort to retain said profession is beyond the understanding of 99% of most other people in the same position. Out in the real world, it's a minimum requirement for self preservation to the point where it doesn't even merit passing comment.

 

[RHolmes]

Ticking “I don’t get this so no one else should have this” off the forum bingo card

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ticking “I don’t get this so no one else should have this” off the forum bingo card

No, not at all. Almost no business at all does this.

I do get the one about loss of commission from e-tickets, but that isn't really a technology payment, it's a change in T&C that mostly removes ticket sales from the role, and changes in T&C do justify discussions on pay.

Just using an iPad instead of books does not. The training should be in work time if it is needed for a given individual (most people won't need any training to use an iPad) but there should absolutely not be extra pay for something that will make the employee's job easier.

 

[Carlisle]

Tablets benefit drivers, undoubtedly, but nowhere near as much as they benefit employers –

If it’s saving some taxpayer subsidy given rail isn’t profitable, surely that’s not a terrible idea .

 

[sh24]

It's called a technology payment. Like in many jobs, if you increase your skillset then you are rewarded for that. However this has all happened (at my TOC at least) many years ago, and we did get a small payment for agreeing to learn and maintain the new technology. This is nothing new, just sounds like a desperate paper, desperate to anger the increasingly dwindling right wing element of society.

I'd argue that using an iPad isn't increasing your skillset, it is a job moving with the times. And there are many many jobs at all sorts of levels outside of the rail industry that wouldn't give a technology payment as a result of that.

That said I trust nothing that is printed in the Sun!

 

[irish_rail]

In the private sector using new tools to do your job more easily doesn't get extra pay and nor should it. Change is a given in business.

Ah that would be the private sector that continues to get 5 or 6 percent payrises per year, whilst trains drivers make do with a 5th year of precisely 0 percent.

 

[Bantamzen]

Ah that would be the private sector that continues to get 5 or 6 percent payrises per year, whilst trains drivers make do with a 5th year of precisely 0 percent.

Not strictly accurate, the driver's union hasn't accepted any deal that could see backpay to 2022.

 

[Snow1964]

Yes technology payments for doing same job with different (newer) equipment are a farce.

Things move on, if given an electric screwdriver and shown how to use it, would you still want to do up screws by hand.

The union is just making themselves look silly, and going to alienate the public

 

[43066]

In most highly skilled professions (which train drivers surely are based on total remuneration among other things) you are indeed rewarded for constantly acquiring new skills and adapting to completely new ways of working.

Your reward is that your inertia doesn't render you completely useless. You don't then end up either being made redundant, unable to get your next contract or otherwise removed from the workforce. The loss of your ability to carry out your profession and subsequent long term unemployment doesn't follow.

Why any highly skilled, high status, highly paid professional expects to receive yet more financial reward for simply making the minimum effort to retain said profession is beyond the understanding of 99% of most other people in the same position. Out in the real world, it's a minimum requirement for self preservation to the point where it doesn't even merit passing comment.

Yet these things differ by profession. As noted above in a previous field I worked for a professional services firm in central London and received a car allowance of several thousand pounds per year - despite not having a car, nor needing one to do the job. I don’t recall ever being required to justify that to anyone, so why should train drivers be expected to justify technology payments?!

Train drivers might (occasionally) get technology payments, but they don’t get bonuses, car allowances, private health cover any of the multitude of benefits available elsewhere in the private sector.

I'd argue that using an iPad isn't increasing your skillset, it is a job moving with the times. And there are many many jobs at all sorts of levels outside of the rail industry that wouldn't give a technology payment as a result of that.

That said I trust nothing that is printed in the Sun!

I suspect all that has happened is that there has been to fail to agree re. new technology introduction due to the wider ongoing pay dispute and The Sun has twisted that to fit its predetermined narrative.

Does anyone know which TOC this has occurred at specifically?

 

[RHolmes]

I'd argue that using an iPad isn't increasing your skillset, it is a job moving with the times.

Using Apple products would be an increasing your skill set, I’m currently in my late 20’s and from an age where I grew up from primary school using technology, quickly adapting to the new forms of tech we have to day and having a near intuitive knowledge of how to use them.

(Although most TOC’s use android)

I can manage an iPad and iPhone as I’ve used them since 2007 but I haven’t got the foggiest idea when it comes to using a Mac, and find the software really complex to use and adapt to compared to Windows.

Similarly after using an iPhone since 2007 I found some of the features of my android train crew phone really challenging to use and figure out.

It is a completely different skill set if you’ve never used the software before, and one that you’ll have to constantly adapt to and be updated on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah that would be the private sector that continues to get 5 or 6 percent payrises per year, whilst trains drivers make do with a 5th year of precisely 0 percent.

No, that's not the case in most of the private sector.

It is a completely different skill set if you’ve never used the software before, and one that you’ll have to constantly adapt to and be updated on.

Unless you do a very, very basic job, constant adaptation, change and training is a given in employment, and your salary is what you get paid to do it, you don't need extra.