Switch Railcard from Friends and family to Two together

[mgill]

Hi,

We are 4 adults and a one year old traveling to Scotland. Two of us have a Two together railcard. I was under the impression that 4 adults and a one year old would qualify for Friends & Family but you have to have a child ticket >5years to be able to qualify for the discount. I didn't realise this while booking our tickets.

I booked 4 adult tickets with Friends & family railcard. a while ago. Looks like we are not in compliance and may be asked to purchase a child ticket or worse fined if we travel with this railcard.

So, my question is:
1. Should we risk it and explain to the ticket checker the situation as you can't technically book a ticket for a 1 year old?
2. We haven't yet bought the F&F rail card, should we buy another Two together railcard and tell the ticket checker that we used the wrong railcard by mistake. The discount/prices would have been exactly the same?
3. Can we goto ticketing office and could they swap the railcard on ticket?
4. We could buy a child ticket but now prices have gone up and will wipe out any discount we had gotten on the tickets.

Please advise!

 

[jfollows]

From https://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/

If the only child in the Family & Friends Railcard group is aged under five years, the Railcard holder must purchase a discounted child ticket for that child in order for the Railcard holder(s) to qualify for the discount on their tickets.

I would say:

1. You should not risk it, because the terms and conditions make clear what you should do
2. Your tickets are printed with the type of railcard against which they were purchased, you can't just decide to use a different type of railcard
3. Maybe, if you bought advance tickets you can probably change them for a fee, if you bought open tickets you can get them refunded and start again, for example.
4. Yes, this is the simplest course of action

Although (4) may "wipe out any discount" it won't make you liable to any kind of penalty which would doubtless be greater.

 

[mgill]

From https://www.familyandfriends-railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/

I would say:

1. You should not risk it, because the terms and conditions make clear what you should do
2. Your tickets are printed with the type of railcard against which they were purchased, you can't just decide to use a different type of railcard
3. Maybe, if you bought advance tickets you can probably change them for a fee, if you bought open tickets you can get them refunded and start again, for example.
4. Yes, this is the simplest course of action

Although (4) may "wipe out any discount" it won't make you liable to any kind of penalty which would doubtless be greater.

Thank you for the response. That makes sense.

Although, now that I'm looking at the tickets more carefully it says Adult "Small Group Discount" even though I had selected Friends & Family railcard while booking it.
Looks like Trainline didn't consider my railcard selection and applied a Group discount which I wasn't aware of.

So, I may be in luck as from what I'm reading small group discount doesn't even require a railcard?

If someone could please confirm that "Small Group Discount" ticket indeed doesn't require any railcard? And if it was a Friends & Family ticket it would have said "Friends & Family Railcard" on ticket?

PS- I'm new to the UK and not very familiar with the railcards and other discount schemes.
Thank you!

 

[Haywain]

It's absolutely fine to buy a ticket for an under-5, and no staff will bat an eyelid at you doing so.

If, when you bought the tickets, you selected 4 adults and no children and applied the F&F railcard you will not have been given a railcard discount as the group did not qualify. Trainline has therefore applied an appropriate discount.

 

[jfollows]

Small Group Discount: (https://www.lner.co.uk/tickets-savi...and-discounts/savings-for-small-groups/#tab_2) doesn’t require a railcard, indeed:

• A 20% discount will be applied for bookings of three or more, (up to a maximum of nine) on Standard or First Advance tickets.
• The discount applies to the offline fare and is subject to availability.
• It’s not valid in conjunction with any other offers or with Railcard discounts.
• The discount is not available on the 09:52 between Aberdeen and Newcastle on Fridays.
• Small Group Discount applies to Advance tickets booked online, and usual Advance terms and conditions apply, plus the following ones:
• Passengers must travel together throughout.
• Any changes to your tickets will need to be made to all the tickets in the group booking.
• LNER reserves the right to withdraw, amend or replace the offer without prior notification.

Groups – even small ones – can get quite talkative at times. But there may be occasions when groups of seats are only available together in the Quieter Coach (usually coach B in Standard). We’ll do our best to book you into other coaches - unless the Quieter Coach is specified – but this may not always be possible on your chosen train(s). So if you do find you’re booked into the Quieter Coach, please respect the rules and be considerate of our other passengers.

To your other question, see attached picture from https://c8.alamy.com/comp/P53BTK/fr...othian-borders-railway-scotland-uk-P53BTK.jpg

(Picture shows a ticket annotated "Under 16 year old Standard Class with Family & Friends Railcard".)

 

[thejuggler]

We holidayed in Scotland a couple of years ago, staying in Linlithgow. We decided to take the train to Edinburgh, daughter had a 16-17 railcard, but realised from the ticket machine that this isn't recognised in Scotland. The ticket sold at the ticket office was the group discount ticket.

 

[mgill]

It's absolutely fine to buy a ticket for an under-5, and no staff will bat an eyelid at you doing so.

If, when you bought the tickets, you selected 4 adults and no children and applied the F&F railcard you will not have been given a railcard discount as the group did not qualify. Trainline has therefore applied an appropriate discount.

Yes, I believe that's what must have happened as there was no 5+ year old in my booking. I entered 4 adults and child 1 year old. Thank you!

Small Group Discount: (https://www.lner.co.uk/tickets-savi...and-discounts/savings-for-small-groups/#tab_2) doesn’t require a railcard, indeed:

To your other question, see attached picture from https://c8.alamy.com/comp/P53BTK/fr...othian-borders-railway-scotland-uk-P53BTK.jpg

(Picture shows a ticket annotated "Under 16 year old Standard Class with Family & Friends Railcard".)

This is very helpful. Thank you very much!

 

[AlbertBeale]

Is the "small group discount" better or worse than a railcard discount? If you don't need a ticket for an under-5-y-o in any case, presumably you could use either the group discount or two Two Together discounts, whichever gives the best total discount for 4 people?

 

[Snow1964]

Is the "small group discount" better or worse than a railcard discount? If you don't need a ticket for an under-5-y-o in any case, presumably you could use either the group discount or two Two Together discounts, whichever gives the best total discount for 4 people?

The Group discount is 20% off on LNER (and for simple calc will pretend each ticket is £100). Two together is third off

4 adults (small group) = £400 less 20% = £320
4 adults (2 x two together) = £400 less third = £266
4 adults & child >5 (F&F) is £450 less third = £286*

*technically is 60% off for children on Friends and Family

So 2 x two together is cheapest, but if got to buy extra railcard then maybe not.

Had the journey been on GWR, then group (called groupsave instead of small group) would have got third off without buying the railcards. The group rate varies by operator

 

[AlbertBeale]

The Group discount is 20% off on LNER (and for simple calc will pretend each ticket is £100). Two together is third off

4 adults (small group) = £400 less 20% = £320
4 adults (2 x two together) = £400 less third = £266
4 adults & child >5 (F&F) is £450 less third = £286*

*technically is 60% off for children on Friends and Family

So 2 x two together is cheapest, but if got to buy extra railcard then maybe not.

Had the journey been on GWR, then group (called groupsave instead of small group) would have got third off without buying the railcards. The group rate varies by operator

Thanks - that's clear, and very helpful. And I didn't know the group rate discount was operator specific.

 

[OscarH]

Thanks - that's clear, and very helpful. And I didn't know the group rate discount was operator specific.

Lots of operators use the standard GroupSave scheme mentioned, which gives the same third off as railcards (the full list is on NRE). It's confusing enough that not all operators have the group discount at all, but EMR and LNER doing their own special group discounts that aren't the same as the main one is just a complete mess (I think LNER's is only available on their sales channels too?).

 

[Haywain]

but EMR and LNER doing their own special group discounts that aren't the same as the main one

And they are not the same as each other either - one is a discount on Advamce tickets only and the other is a set of ticket types.

I think LNER's is only available on their sales channels too?

Not so, as the OP purchased from Trainline.

 

[Watershed]

Group discounts are a complete dog's breakfast and serve as a prime facie case study for why the TOCs should have been subject to much more stringent regulation of their pricing and fare setting.

The TOCs have proven that they would sooner each go in 20 different directions than unify on a common standard. See also the pathetically vague guidance for ticket acceptance during strikes.

Really it's a function that should have been overseen and led at a national level, with only limited regional divergence. But even with the ostensible rollout of GBR I don't hold out much hope of the nettle being grasped.

 

[OscarH]

Not so, as the OP purchased from Trainline.

Doh! Of course. I take that some of that bit back then. It's still ridiculous though, and it'll either be a bodge or be something that needs every journey planner to do manual work which not all will have done

 

[Krokodil]

Although, now that I'm looking at the tickets more carefully it says Adult "Small Group Discount" even though I had selected Friends & Family railcard while booking it.
Looks like Trainline didn't consider my railcard selection and applied a Group discount which I wasn't aware of.

That answers the question I had of how a public-facing system sold adult F&F tickets without the child F&F tickets - evidently it didn't! Had you told Trainline that the child was 5 years old (I know that it sounds odd to be encouraging someone to lie, but it's legit, trust me) then it would have sold you a child's ticket and applied the F&F discount to the whole booking.

I would avoid Trainline anyway.

 

[Haywain]

Doh! Of course. I take that some of that bit back then. It's still ridiculous though, and it'll either be a bodge or be something that needs every journey planner to do manual work which not all will have done

I'm pretty sure it exists amongst the railcard list.

 

[Adam Williams]

Doh! Of course. I take that some of that bit back then. It's still ridiculous though, and it'll either be a bodge or be something that needs every journey planner to do manual work which not all will have done

It's SGU I think.

Seems to pull in not one, not two, but three (!) restriction codes. At some point it got nerfed from 25% off to 20% off, so still substantially worse than GS3.
I think implementing this "nicely" will require JP work as you identify, but it might be possible to just add it to the list in the interim.

I think LNER's is only available on their sales channels too?

I can see why you thought this, because the (horribly outdated) NRE promotion description page suggests it only applies to bookings made at a specific lner.co.uk URL: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/tickets-railcards-offers/promotions/big-savings-for-small-groups/

 

[OscarH]

I'm pretty sure it exists amongst the railcard list.

I hadn't gotten round to looking at the implementation, that'll be the second category of requiring each journey planner to do work to support it

 

[Haywain]

It's SGU I think.

I think there were, and may still be, two codes with different discounts - one for the web and one for ticket offices - but I can't remember the details.

 

[Adam Williams]

I think there were, and may still be, two codes with different discounts - one for the web and one for ticket offices - but I can't remember the details.

You're quite right, though I was struggling to work out why that might be the case. I think perhaps the discount values have coalesced around the same 20% figure now, but perhaps there was additional discount for buying online in the past. Only speculation, though.

 

[Haywain]

You're quite right, though I was struggling to work out why that might be the case. I think perhaps the discount values have coalesced around the same 20% figure now, but perhaps there was additional discount for buying online in the past. Only speculation, though.

The web discount was higher in the pasr.