SWR Class 458 to be retained

[Siemens Staines]

But now it seems that four /4 units have already been completed with at least two more in preparation

I believe that there are actually five completed and delivered to Bournemouth (405,407,417,423,425) and two in progress (516,528), or will be when 516 leaves SWR metals later today.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

But now it seems that four /4 units have already been completed with at least two more in preparation, which seems rather more than just completing the initial prototypes. Have SWR decided to continue with the conversions, and so they will eventually turn up to replace the 450s on the Direct? Surely after the wastefulness of the 442 and 769/9 fleets being rebuilt and then never used, we're not going to see another fleet following their example? Apart from anything else, there can be little space available for storing a load of 458/4s in addition to all the 701s cluttering up the available storage locations.

It’s not up to SWR to decide or not to continue with the conversions - that’s the leasing companies decision based upon the contract they currently have.

 

[DelW]

It’s not up to SWR to decide or not to continue with the conversions - that’s the leasing companies decision based upon the contract they currently have.

I appreciate that they're separate organisations with their own priorities, but surely in this situation the ROSCO, the TOC, and the DfT (as holders of the ultimate purse strings) would be talking to each other about the sense and future of the conversion contract? Even if there are financial penalties for truncating the contract, paying them would be more sensible than continuing to rebuild trains that may well never be used, squandering yet more money when trains are widely being cancelled and short-formed due to shortage of rolling stock (or the DfT's unwillingness to pay for stock that is available).

 

[Doomotron]

It’s not up to SWR to decide or not to continue with the conversions - that’s the leasing companies decision based upon the contract they currently have.

So if the original plan was for three units and at least 5 have been done or are being done as we speak, something must have changed. I hardly believe the ROSCO would convert extra units needlessly. My best guess based on this is either SWR really are going forward with this scheme beyond the initial batch or the weirder option that whoever owns the trains is converting more than neseccary, possibly to make the fleet more marketable? Even then, the latter seems unlikely.

 

[The_Train]

I appreciate that they're separate organisations with their own priorities, but surely in this situation the ROSCO, the TOC, and the DfT (as holders of the ultimate purse strings) would be talking to each other about the sense and future of the conversion contract? Even if there are financial penalties for truncating the contract, paying them would be more sensible than continuing to rebuild trains that may well never be used, squandering yet more money when trains are widely being cancelled and short-formed due to shortage of rolling stock (or the DfT's unwillingness to pay for stock that is available).

You're talking about UK railways here and using words like "sense" and "sensible"

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I appreciate that they're separate organisations with their own priorities, but surely in this situation the ROSCO, the TOC, and the DfT (as holders of the ultimate purse strings) would be talking to each other about the sense and future of the conversion contract? Even if there are financial penalties for truncating the contract, paying them would be more sensible than continuing to rebuild trains that may well never be used, squandering yet more money when trains are widely being cancelled and short-formed due to shortage of rolling stock (or the DfT's unwillingness to pay for stock that is available).

Would it save money?
If there’s no break clause in the contact you may save no money by cancelling the work.

Talking doesn’t come free, people’s work time isn’t free and contract changes involve solicitors letters etc which also aren’t free.

You may end up costing more!

 

[DelW]

Would it save money?
If there’s no break clause in the contact you may save no money by cancelling the work.

Talking doesn’t come free, people’s work time isn’t free and contract changes involve solicitors letters etc which also aren’t free.

You may end up costing more!

Well, I doubt whether anyone in the know would be willing to talk, so we'll probably never know. But a vast amount of money has been wasted on rebuilding what proved to be utterly useless trains in the last few years.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Well, I doubt whether anyone in the know would be willing to talk, so we'll probably never know. But a vast amount of money has been wasted on rebuilding what proved to be utterly useless trains in the last few years.

Utterly useless?
I've been driving them since 2007, and they seem fine to me.

 

[DelW]

Utterly useless?
I've been driving them since 2007, and they seem fine to me.

I was referring to the 442s and 769/9s, which were rebuilt but have never been used since. Arguably the LNR 230s could be included as well, since they only ran (unreliably) for a short while and are now dumped at Reading with an unknown future.

 

[sharpinf]

I was referring to the 442s and 769/9s, which were rebuilt but have never been used since. Arguably the LNR 230s could be included as well, since they only ran (unreliably) for a short while and are now dumped at Reading with an unknown future.

Without wanting to go off topic the SWR refurbished 442s did run briefly in limited services between about June 2019 until Covid

 

[Juniper Driver]

I was referring to the 442s and 769/9s, which were rebuilt but have never been used since. Arguably the LNR 230s could be included as well, since they only ran (unreliably) for a short while and are now dumped at Reading with an unknown future.

Fair enough.They were already converted once, and I volunteered to be trained on them before their first conversion.I thought they were quite good if not a bit temperamental.
The 442 project was a flop, but I'm not sure anybody could have predicted that.They were a bit funny before that, and I suffered the most failures on them compared to other units I had driven over a 15-year period.
Hopefully the 458's 2nd conversion will be successful.
Oh, and sorry if my reply was a little abrupt.

 

[DelW]

Without wanting to go off topic the SWR refurbished 442s did run briefly in limited services between about June 2019 until Covid

Sorry, I think I was mixing up the refurb and the retractioning. I did actually travel on them a couple of times (one failed on me after five miles though) but while they still had DC motors. I don't think they were ever used after the AC conversion (BICBW).

Hopefully the 458's 2nd conversion will be successful.

Agreed, I'd like to see the Direct go to all 2+2 seating, and the 458/4s seem like the only hope of that.

Oh, and sorry if my reply was a little abrupt.

No problem, I didn't take it that way

 

[Peter Sarf]

I'm wondering if I've missed an announcement about these trains...

It seemed from posts much earlier in this thread that the current SWR management had no intention of using the 4-car 458/4s in service. The prototypes of the conversion would be completed and tested in accordance with the initial contract, and would then be stored pending a decision at some future time as to whether the rest of the 458/5 fleet would be converted and redeployed as previously planned.

But now it seems that four /4 units have already been completed with at least two more in preparation, which seems rather more than just completing the initial prototypes. Have SWR decided to continue with the conversions, and so they will eventually turn up to replace the 450s on the Direct? Surely after the wastefulness of the 442 and 769/9 fleets being rebuilt and then never used, we're not going to see another fleet following their example? Apart from anything else, there can be little space available for storing a load of 458/4s in addition to all the 701s cluttering up the available storage locations.

So is there any reliable information regarding how many units will be converted in the current tranche of work?

My guess is that the contract is for the ROSCO to supply all of them (well 30 ?) as 4-car. The contract to use them might run out soon after. ROSCO has done its job but SWR might be unwilling to change the order - what do SWR save by doing that ?.

 

[Benno]

458524 should be the 8th unit to go to Widnes for conversion early November.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

458524 should be the 8th unit to go to Widnes for conversion early November.

Which presumably leaves SWR in the daft position of less 458/5s than the number of traffic diagrams there are for them!

 

[class397tpe]

I'm wondering if I've missed an announcement about these trains...

It seemed from posts much earlier in this thread that the current SWR management had no intention of using the 4-car 458/4s in service. The prototypes of the conversion would be completed and tested in accordance with the initial contract, and would then be stored pending a decision at some future time as to whether the rest of the 458/5 fleet would be converted and redeployed as previously planned.

But now it seems that four /4 units have already been completed with at least two more in preparation, which seems rather more than just completing the initial prototypes. Have SWR decided to continue with the conversions, and so they will eventually turn up to replace the 450s on the Direct? Surely after the wastefulness of the 442 and 769/9 fleets being rebuilt and then never used, we're not going to see another fleet following their example? Apart from anything else, there can be little space available for storing a load of 458/4s in addition to all the 701s cluttering up the available storage locations.

So is there any reliable information regarding how many units will be converted in the current tranche of work?

Crazy that there's money for a seat replacement for this refurbishment (it was already 2+2!) whereas none can be found for EMR's 360s!

 

[43096]

My guess is that the contract is for the ROSCO to supply all of them (well 30 ?) as 4-car. The contract to use them might run out soon after. ROSCO has done its job but SWR might be unwilling to change the order - what do SWR save by doing that ?.

28 x 4-cars is the contract. Units 458501-528 are those assigned for conversion.

 

[43096]

Which presumably leaves SWR in the daft position of less 458/5s than the number of traffic diagrams there are for them!

They are rapidly getting to the point where the 458/4s will have to enter traffic given the continuing Aventra fiasco.

You can’t keep taking 458/5s out for conversion as they will need replacing by 450s, which have to come from somewhere.

 

[45076]

Crazy that there's money for a seat replacement for this refurbishment (it was already 2+2!) whereas none can be found for EMR's 360s!

or the 170's

 

[Big Jumby 74]

I'd like to see the Direct go to all 2+2 seating

Without wishing to cause offence, but a polite reminder for those who may be not so aware of the (long standing) PDL issues, doing away with 3+2 completely was never the intention, the Pompey stoppers and Haslemere terminators were always planned to be operated by stock such as VEP's and latterly 450's. The issue at hand was only ever the 1Pxx services.

 

[DelW]

Without wishing to cause offence, but a polite reminder for those who may be not so aware of the (long standing) PDL issues, doing away with 3+2 completely was never the intention, the Pompey stoppers and Haslemere terminators were always planned to be operated by stock such as VEP's and latterly 450's. The issue at hand was only ever the 1Pxx services.

No problem, I go back to the era of the VEPs and CIG/BIG/CIGs, though not (quite) to the Nelsons

Unfortunately, for the indefinite future, there's only 1tph (off-peak) on the Direct that isn't a Pompey stopper or a Haslemere. Most weekends seem to be all 8-450s too (based on what I happen to see or travel on, I haven't studied the allocations).

The current SWR plans seem very opaque as to how many (if any) of the 450s are going to be replaced by the 458/4s. But if indeed the majority of the 458/5s are due to go for conversion, SWR will have to get either the /4s or the 701s into service soon, or there'll be short forms or cancellations all over.

 

[slicedbread]

Most weekends seem to be all 8-450s too

Getting home of an evening on a weekday I've had a 444+450 the last few times.

 

[WarrenTManager]

Which presumably leaves SWR in the daft position of less 458/5s than the number of traffic diagrams there are for them!

No. 28 for 25.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

The current SWR plans seem very opaque

Having been out the job for a decade or so, I wouldn't wish to comment on specific details of todays plans, but experience tells me the key to unlocking everything, is to get the 701's up and running.

No. 28 for 25.

90 %. Spot on for a micro fleet. A larger fleet such as 450 was always planned (originally) to be 95 % (120 from 127) although this was reduced to 118 from 127 in order to undertake various mods including the conversion to 450/5, without putting the day to day service and day to day maintenance regime at risk.

No problem, I go back to the era of the VEPs and CIG/BIG/CIGs, though not (quite) to the Nelsons

A colleague use to work on those (CORS etc), in their latter days, not the best units to ride on especially in the vans. To be polite they were very tired by the end of their time!

 

[Phil R]

Getting home of an evening on a weekday I've had a 444+450 the last few times.

Indeed, the 1715 is currently booked, has been for a few weeks. Which is fine if the 444 is at the country end, those liking their comforts are better able to enjoy them.

 

[Class450/4DES]

Okay. I have seen on here and on twitter that the Class 458/4 could couple to the Desiros and run in multiple.
I don't really think that could happen though unless SWR has told Alstom to modify them?? But I don't see this as possible...

I think I have misread something too but I am not 100% sure.

 

[swr444]

Okay. I have seen on here and on twitter that the Class 458/4 could couple to the Desiros and run in multiple.
I don't really think that could happen though unless SWR has told Alstom to modify them?? But I don't see this as possible...

I think I have misread something too but I am not 100% sure.

definitely a misread. they can couple up in emergencies only

 

[swt_passenger]

Okay. I have seen on here and on twitter that the Class 458/4 could couple to the Desiros and run in multiple.
I don't really think that could happen though unless SWR has told Alstom to modify them?? But I don't see this as possible...

I think I have misread something too but I am not 100% sure.

I don’t believe you will ever have seen “running in multiple” suggested on this forum, it’s always been made clear that it was for rescue purposes only.

 

[Class450/4DES]

I don’t believe you will ever have seen “running in multiple” suggested on this forum, it’s always been made clear that it was for rescue purposes only.

I thought so...
Thanks!

 

[Wyrleybart]

I don’t believe you will ever have seen “running in multiple” suggested on this forum, it’s always been made clear that it was for rescue purposes only.

So getting this clear, SWR are going to end up the following fleets that don't multi with anything else

701
450+444
458
455

Presume the 455s disappear when sufficient 701s enter service and crew are trained