SWR Penalty Fare

[MapleMangler]

Hi all.

I'm new to the forum, but I am looking for advice.
I was delivered a penalty fare for a regular journey that I do from Cobham to Waterloo on Sundays. I train in Cobham.
On this particular day I purchased a ticket from Cobham station, I wasn't issued a receipt and took my ticket, this was around 3pm, as the train only runs every hour from the station. On my arrival into Waterloo, I wasn't able to locate my ticket which I had placed in my pocket and was flagged down by a penalty fares officer. I explained the situation and since I had purchased the ticket on my credit card, wasn't able to show the purchase of the ticket since it only shows up the next day once the payment has gone through. He explained that he would need to issue me with a penalty, but I should appeal it, as it was likely I would get the appeal through and I agreed and gave him my information.

My appeal in which I explained the situation and provided a screen shot of my purchase, that shows the cost for the single ticket and also the station it was purchased at was refused on appeal. I've issued a second appeal, and will go for a 3rd, but I'm receiving letters now from SWR for £110.50. I refuse to pay this as I've provided proof of purchase from the station for the cost of the 10.50 ticket. I'm just wondering what my recourse is going to be if both of the additional appeals fail? I know a few legal types, who will help me if this goes to a legal case, but I'm hoping this won't go that far.

Appreciate any solid advice. I will no longer be buying paper tickets from SWR ever again.

P.S.

I will add the original failed appeal, did not argue that I did not purchase the ticket, only failed to produce it at the gate and for that reason the appeal had been denied.

 

[Hadders]

Welcome to the forum!

Legally speaking, you have committed an offence because you are required to show a valid ticket for your journey when asked to do so, and you couldn’t do this. However unfair it sounds, or unfortunate losing your ticket is, this is the legal position.

A Penalty Fare is appropriate in cases like this, and my advice is normally to pay it to prevent the matter from escalating. Others might be able to advise if an appeal might succeed on a ‘technical’ reason, such as deficient signage.

 

[Skymonster]

The problem is that the railway could suggest that you might have been travelling with someone else, you bought the ticket and gave it to them, then split up on arrival with your companion using the ticket to exit and you trying to exit with the payment proof. I’m not saying that’s what you did - it’s just what could happen and sadly there are plenty of people out there who will try all sorts of cons to dodge a fare. The railway has seen it all before and reacts accordingly as it’s impossible to distinguish an honest mistake from deliberate malfeasance. Penalty Fare is a less severe sanction than the alternative of being reported for potential prosecution.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If you appealed within the allowed time period the clock should have stopped in terms of being able to get the 50% discount on the penalty element.

I would be inclined to pay up and move on as I agree with other comments that you don’t really have a strong case.

If you do rely on e-tickets going forward, make sure you always buy them before you set foot on a train, if you don’t want to come to their attention again, as a second strike is likely to lead to prosecution.

 

[Haywain]

If you appealed within the allowed time period the clock should have stopped in terms of being able to get the 50% discount on the penalty element.

And if reminder letters are now being sent for the full amount it might suggest that the OP is out of time for a third appeal?

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi all.

I'm new to the forum, but I am looking for advice.
I was delivered a penalty fare for a regular journey that I do from Cobham to Waterloo on Sundays. I train in Cobham.
On this particular day I purchased a ticket from Cobham station, I wasn't issued a receipt and took my ticket, this was around 3pm, as the train only runs every hour from the station. On my arrival into Waterloo, I wasn't able to locate my ticket which I had placed in my pocket and was flagged down by a penalty fares officer. I explained the situation and since I had purchased the ticket on my credit card, wasn't able to show the purchase of the ticket since it only shows up the next day once the payment has gone through. He explained that he would need to issue me with a penalty, but I should appeal it, as it was likely I would get the appeal through and I agreed and gave him my information.

My appeal in which I explained the situation and provided a screen shot of my purchase, that shows the cost for the single ticket and also the station it was purchased at was refused on appeal. I've issued a second appeal, and will go for a 3rd, but I'm receiving letters now from SWR for £110.50. I refuse to pay this as I've provided proof of purchase from the station for the cost of the 10.50 ticket. I'm just wondering what my recourse is going to be if both of the additional appeals fail? I know a few legal types, who will help me if this goes to a legal case, but I'm hoping this won't go that far.

Appreciate any solid advice. I will no longer be buying paper tickets from SWR ever again.

P.S.

I will add the original failed appeal, did not argue that I did not purchase the ticket, only failed to produce it at the gate and for that reason the appeal had been denied.

It would help if you could set out the dates of when all this happened, when you summitted your appeal, when they replied etc etc so people can see why they are now asking you for a sum that is not the 50% discounted penalty fare (£50) + cost of ticket, but the full £100 etc sum. Appeals correctly submitted should stop the clock on the 50% discount time window.

Did you ever find the actual ticket that you lost and could not show?

Best of all is if you can upload copies of what you were given on the day, and subsequent letters, your Appeal wording etc - all with your persona details and ref numbers blanked out - so that experts here can check stuff.

But as above replies I fear the Penalty Fare was issued correctly and your grounds of Appeal are not valid within the terms of the Penalty Fare regs - and thus sadly you will have to pay the sum asked for. You have my sympathy.

 

[island]

"Screenshots" are not accepted in lieu of a ticket, as explained above this would allow the ticket to be given to someone else and two or more people to travel for the price of one.

If you run out of road on the appeal track, you will need to pay the total as otherwise a CCJ can be taken out against you in which case you can kiss goodbye to borrowing money, renting a home, or getting a job that requires a credit check for six years.

 

[MapleMangler]

Thanks for the information. I'll pay the fine.

 

[gray1404]

Do provide the dates as suggested so we can check you are paying the correct amount.

Date of travel
Date first appeal submitted
Date response from first appeal received and was this by letter or email
Date second appeal submitted
Date response from second appeal was received and was this by letter or email

 

[Alex C.]

If you run out of road on the appeal track, you will need to pay the total as otherwise a CCJ can be taken out against you in which case you can kiss goodbye to borrowing money, renting a home, or getting a job that requires a credit check for six years.

Have we seen examples of TOCs doing this? Given they have very limited costs they can recoup I’d be surprised if it’s common. From the passengers perspective, providing it is paid within 28 days of the judgement, it won’t be recorded publicly on credit files.

 

[WesternLancer]

Have we seen examples of TOCs doing this? Given they have very limited costs they can recoup I’d be surprised if it’s common. From the passengers perspective, providing it is paid within 28 days of the judgement, it won’t be recorded publicly on credit files.

I think occasionally yes (Merseyrail feet on seats fine not so long ago maybe?)

 

[furlong]

It was always envisaged that lost tickets would provide valid grounds for appeal against a Penalty Fare, so you should certainly continue to try if you are within the time limits.

From the Second Reading in Parliament of the original legislation, which it might be helpful to quote in your appeal:

Mr. McNair-Wilson...What is more important, the trained, authorised personnel will be given discretion. If a person says, "I have lost my ticket"—not a completely unknown predicament, in which some of us may have found ourselves—it will be possible for the official to say, "That is all right, you can go." There will also be a 21-day discretionary period. If a notice is issued to a passenger, he will be able to put his case in writing. The matter will then be examined by the appropriate authorities at head office. There will be no attempt to bulldoze or bully passengers. If a reasonable excuse is given, discretion can be exercised by those in authority.

The appeal mechanism has of course evolved since then, but the underlying principle remains. Exactly as parliament was told before it agreed to this legislation, the appeals body has the discretion to uphold an appeal where a ticket was lost. Your task is to persuade them to use it in your particular case by convincing them your excuse is reasonable.


And on a tangent, as I regularly like to remind people who forget how TOCs may appear to be undermining Parliament's intended breadth of use of Penalty Fares as a purely civil matter:

Mr. Portillo...As my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest made clear, the penalty fare will be a civil penalty, not a criminal one, and that will mean that most offences for non-payment of fares will no longer be heard at magistrates' courts. But BR would still have the right to prosecute in serious cases of fraud.