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SWR timetable change - late trains removed and I can't get home

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Fiyero

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I have just seen that SWR are starting a new timetable from 17/01 and the trains I rely on to get home after going to the theatre are gone. I get the 23:05 Waterloo to Eastleigh. These are still on on Saturdays but I have a Tuesday and a Friday coming up. it seems the last direct train is 22:09 and the last one that even gets me close is 22:35. I have already booked, via TrainPal, for 2 trips. Do I have any recourse? There were no warnings in the booking process, I have just tried and can still book even!
 
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Bletchleyite

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I have just seen that SWR are starting a new timetable from 17/01 and the trains I rely on to get home after going to the theatre are gone. I get the 23:05 Waterloo to Eastleigh. These are still on on Saturdays but I have a Tuesday and a Friday coming up. it seems the last direct train is 22:09 and the last one that even gets me close is 22:35. I have already booked, via TrainPal, for 2 trips. Do I have any recourse? There were no warnings in the booking process, I have just tried and can still book even!

If the train you have booked is cancelled or removed from the timetable after booking, you can have a full refund from the vendor without admin fee.
 

Mike395

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You'll be able to get a refund on the tickets for sure. If you still wanted to travel, had an evidenced itinerary involving those trains and TrainPal didn't notify you (explicitly) in advance of the changed timetable there's an argument that the railway have a duty of care to get you back (with anything up to a taxi at their expense as necessary), but how that's handled in reality 'on the ground' is very much variable unfortunately.
 

Fiyero

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If the train you have booked is cancelled or removed from the timetable after booking, you can have a full refund from the vendor without admin fee.

You'll be able to get a refund on the tickets for sure. If you still wanted to travel, had an evidenced itinerary involving those trains and TrainPal didn't notify you (explicitly) in advance of the changed timetable there's an argument that the railway have a duty of care to get you back (with anything up to a taxi at their expense as necessary), but how that's handled in reality 'on the ground' is very much variable unfortunately.
I was hoping a refund wasn't my only option as I still want to go! I have theatre tickets booked. I really don't know what alternatives there are though!
 

Bletchleyite

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I was hoping a refund wasn't my only option as I still want to go! I have theatre tickets booked. I really don't know what alternatives there are though!

I guess you'll need to either book a hotel or take a taxi (at your cost) from a station that is served, e.g. perhaps Portsmouth which has a 2245 if that's late enough? Though it won't be cheap, I'm afraid, the taxi option is likely cheaper than a London hotel...but you could well get a bargain at the moment given the lack of business travel.

You could risk showing up claiming ignorance and showing your booked itinerary, but that'll only work once and may not work at all.
 

Starmill

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I guess you'll need to either book a hotel or take a taxi (at your cost) from a station that is served, e.g. perhaps Portsmouth which has a 2245 if that's late enough? Though it won't be cheap, I'm afraid, the taxi option is likely cheaper than a London hotel...but you could well get a bargain at the moment given the lack of business travel.

You could risk showing up claiming ignorance and showing your booked itinerary, but that'll only work once and may not work at all.
There's an entitlement to alternative transport in the NRCoT...

SWR can't back out of the contract without the agreement of the consumer. To state they will do so would be unlawful. And before anyone says it, the defence of 'frustration' is clearly not available.
 

Haywain

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take a taxi (at your cost) from a station that is served, e.g. perhaps Portsmouth which has a 2245 if that's late enough?
How about Basingstoke, which appears to have a couple of trains after 2305?
 

Fiyero

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Thanks, I feel like on the 2 Friday trips I have planned I may as well get a hotel and make the most of it - I will push for my fixed advance ticket being taken on a train of my choice the next day!

The problematic one is the Tuesday. I am due at work at 09:00 on Wednesday. No leave left to use so can't "make the most of it" on that one. It just seems off to me that they can do this and I may have to cancel my evening out for it!
 

Starmill

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Thanks, I feel like on the 2 Friday trips I have planned I may as well get a hotel and make the most of it - I will push for my fixed advance ticket being taken on a train of my choice the next day!
If SWR wish to back out of their end of the contract, but you're happy to renegotiate it based on being able to use your ticket at a sensible time the following day I'd say that's a very reasonable compromise.

Expect to face very heavy resistance to the idea from SWR however. Up to and including criminal penalties if you use the ticket on the incorrect date.
 

Haywain

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Thanks, I feel like on the 2 Friday trips I have planned I may as well get a hotel and make the most of it - I will push for my fixed advance ticket being taken on a train of my choice the next day!

The problematic one is the Tuesday. I am due at work at 09:00 on Wednesday. No leave left to use so can't "make the most of it" on that one. It just seems off to me that they can do this and I may have to cancel my evening out for it!
Is driving to Basingstoke an option for you?

There were no warnings in the booking process, I have just tried and can still book even!
I can also see the train from London as being bookable, but it is with a change at Basingstoke for a replacement bus to Eastleigh which does not, of course, appear in Realtime Trains.
 

Fiyero

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If SWR wish to back out of their end of the contract, but you're happy to renegotiate it based on being able to use your ticket at a sensible time the following day I'd say that's a very reasonable compromise.

Expect to face very heavy resistance to the idea from SWR however. Up to and including criminal penalties if you use the ticket on the incorrect date.
I recall from when Southampton bound trains from London couldn't stop at Eastleigh logic was tricky to get hold of. My 3rd trip isn't booked yet so I can go straight to plan B.

Not sure when / if TrainPal will actually tell me there is an issue and what they will offer.

Is driving to Basingstoke an option for you?


I can also see the train from London as being bookable, but it is with a change at Basingstoke for a replacement bus to Eastleigh which does not, of course, appear in Realtime Trains.
I don't drive. I can cycle to Eastleigh or Southampton Airport Parkway

For my first dates (28/01 and 01/02) SWR and National Rail Journey planners don't seem to have been updated but do have a warning things may change. Trainpal still happily shows my 23:05 with no warning.
 

Starmill

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Not sure when / if TrainPal will actually tell me there is an issue and what they will offer.
I would be surprised if they contacted you specifically or offered anything at all.

You can rely on the normal advance ticket terms and conditions to travel on the 0530, and also be entitled to claim compensation for a delay of approximately 6 hours.

If you arrive at the station to travel on, for example, the 0909, I would be very prepared to be refused boarding on the basis that your ticket is expired.
 

Fiyero

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I would be surprised if they contacted you specifically or offered anything at all.
OK, I was assuming I'd get an email when the timetable is updated, I know I did from Railsplit on a (different, previous) longer journey advising my final train is cancelled and get the next one instead.

Ignoring what I want what am I entitled to? I cannot travel on the 23:05 as it doesn't exist. Would I be expected to travel on an earlier one? or contact them for a refund or what?
 

Bletchleyite

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How about Basingstoke, which appears to have a couple of trains after 2305?

I did think of that but it is quite a bit further.

There's an entitlement to alternative transport in the NRCoT...

SWR can't back out of the contract without the agreement of the consumer. To state they will do so would be unlawful. And before anyone says it, the defence of 'frustration' is clearly not available.

Theoretically. Meanwhile in practice if the OP turns up at Waterloo they likely won't get anything. Customer Services might pay the taxi, but likely use of the Small Claims Court would prove necessary.

Some people enjoy pursuing their rights in this manner but most want to avoid hassle.
 

Starmill

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Ignoring what I want what am I entitled to? I cannot travel on the 23:05 as it doesn't exist. Would I be expected to travel on an earlier one? or contact them for a refund or what?
In my opinion:

- it is indusputable you're entitled to travel on the 0530 the next day, or a refund.

- you're also entitled to travel on the previous service if yours is cancelled and the following one does not suit your needs.

- if none of the above suits you you're entitled to alternative transport at SWR's arrangement, and delay compensation if applicable. For example a taxi from Basingstoke to Eastleigh could be provided. I wouldn't necessarily rely on SWR to fulfill this.

- you can suggest that you might travel alternatively on a later service the next day, but that's not a clear entitlement and SWR may refuse

I did think of that but it is quite a bit further.



Theoretically. Meanwhile in practice if the OP turns up at Waterloo they likely won't get anything. Customer Services might pay the taxi, but likely use of the Small Claims Court would prove necessary.

Some people enjoy pursuing their rights in this manner but most want to avoid hassle.
As Bletchleyite notes you're very likely to be made to pay for your own taxi or a completely new ticket if you don't take the 0530.
 

Haywain

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I did think of that but it is quite a bit further.
I had a look at a few places on Google Maps and there's not much to choose in terms of the combination of journey time and distance. Basingstoke has the advantage of being close to the M3, and on a logical route where others may be making the same journey and providing the possibility of sharing costs.
 

Fiyero

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I had a look at a few places on Google Maps and there's not much to choose in terms of the combination of journey time and distance. Basingstoke has the advantage of being close to the M3, and on a logical route where others may be making the same journey and providing the possibility of sharing costs.
Thanks for your efforts. Logistically though only Eastleigh and Parkway are any good to me. Unless SWR offer to put me in a taxi from somewhere else I won't be paying for one, I'd rather stay in London.
 

Class800

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SWR have been very bad in the recent past in terms of changing timetables and then claiming even for passengers with advance tickets that the original itinerary is not relevant anymore, only the revised one. They have put a banner heading on the delay repay page to this extent during some times of particular disruption.
 

miklcct

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- you can suggest that you might travel alternatively on a later service the next day, but that's not a clear entitlement and SWR may refuse
You can refund your ticket fee-free (due to train being cancelled) and buy a new ticket if this is your intention.
 

Starmill

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You can refund your ticket fee-free (due to train being cancelled) and buy a new ticket if this is your intention.
You most certainly can yes. But beware that if the existing ticket is a cheaper Advance ticket, a new ticket may cost more, or substantially more.
 

Bletchleyite

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You most certainly can yes. But beware that if the existing ticket is a cheaper Advance ticket, a new ticket may cost more, or substantially more.

Worth checking if this is actually the case or not before spending time on all the hassle.

(again: some enjoy this and would push the point anyway...)
 

Fiyero

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Ok, 3rd trip I’ve now made plans for the Saturday (hadn’t actually booked any train tickets yet).
1st trip I will do the same and think I should probably do that before advance fares are removed for the Saturday! Unless trainpal or SWR are going to go out of their way it seems in best fixing that myself.
Still not really sure I can do about the middle (Tuesday) night trip though.
 

BluePenguin

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I know it doesn’t matter as much to some people as others, but how much were the original advance tickets that you bought?

If there is not much in it in terms of the difference between what you would have paid on the day and what you paid in advance, then perhaps refund and buying again wouldn’t hurt. Although I would probably be brazen and argue my point.

You were not to know that the trains were going to be cancelled. Arguably they shouldn’t have been as I am sure plenty of other people were depending on those services to get them home.
 

Fiyero

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I know it doesn’t matter as much to some people as others, but how much were the original advance tickets that you bought?

If there is not much in it in terms of the difference between what you would have paid on the day and what you paid in advance, then perhaps refund and buying again wouldn’t hurt. Although I would probably be brazen and argue my point.

You were not to know that the trains were going to be cancelled. Arguably they shouldn’t have been as I am sure plenty of other people were depending on those services to get them home.
Hi, Bottom price advance so £17.40 for the return pair. I think a flexible off-peak return is around £45 so £30 using my railcard, still a chunk more!
UPDATE added 19/01
So, I've tweeted and got nowhere. I bit the bullet and phoned and they are really playing hardball. The new timetable means, and I am voicing this as Gene Wilder does to young Charlie in the Chocolate Factory, "You get nothing".
  • I can get a refund and buy myself a new ticket. That has been allowed for a while due to covid anyway. Or I can amend but there may be an admin charge.
  • He will check if I can go to Parkway on the earlier 22:35 train and double back (though no service to double back on). I am fairly sure nobody will challenge me on that but it will be a very tight connection on the Tuesday anyway. UPDATE: he called back and if I surrender my original ticket so they can cancel the barcode they will send me a voucher so I can travel on that one.
  • I have no rights under NRCOC it seems as they can amend the timetable as they see fit.
 
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Fiyero

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I am surprised an advance ticket does not afford any protection to ensure the journey can take place?
They seem to be of the opinion that it can, just not when I want it to! That is partly though why I don't want to cancel and rebook in case my original train is reinstated!
 

Class800

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They seem to be of the opinion that it can, just not when I want it to! That is partly though why I don't want to cancel and rebook in case my original train is reinstated!
I live on the SWR west of England route and find them particularly bad with this sort of thing
 

Watershed

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They seem to be of the opinion that it can, just not when I want it to! That is partly though why I don't want to cancel and rebook in case my original train is reinstated!
Here's a hint - never take legal advice from your "opponent"!

You have a contract in place. It solely entitles you to travel on the booked itinerary.

So for them to suggest they can fundamentally alter the contract - viz. departure time - without so much as informing you, let alone obtaining your agreement, defies all logic. It is simply not how contracts work.

It would be like if you agreed to pay a plumber £100 to service your boiler, they did the service, and later demanded £200. It's just nonsensical.
 

yorkie

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They seem to be of the opinion that it can, just not when I want it to! That is partly though why I don't want to cancel and rebook in case my original train is reinstated!
The opinion of the Twitter team is pretty much worthless; they are not experts in contract or consumer laws or the National Rail Conditions of Travel. The experts can be found here.
 

Class800

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The opinion of the Twitter team is pretty much worthless; they are not experts in contract or consumer laws or the National Rail Conditions of Travel. The experts can be found here.
Absolutely correct - but with SWR in past I have found even the full customer services department very difficult on things like timetable changes on advance tickets, although generally helpful on other matters
 
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