SWR timetable change - late trains removed and I can't get home

[Feuillesmortes]

Confusingly there are two threads here:

Fliero is going from London to Eastleigh, but extendedpaul has found a possible connection

jossadb is going from Exeter to London and a SWR service has been cancelled but there might be a GWR one

 

[3rd rail land]

Under the Advance ticket terms and conditions you can also travel on the next train should you wish without needing to ask. Even if that's the next day.

If you book an Advance for the last train of the day, according to the timetable in place at the time of purchasing the Advance ticket, and the service is removed from the timetable or cancelled for any other reason is the passenger expected to wait for the first train the following day? If they made alternate arrangements such as a hotel, taxi or purchased a new ticket in order to travel with a different TOC what would be their rights to claim this money back from the offending TOC?

I have visions of SWR telling the passenger in this situation that they have to wait at the station for several hours for the next train the following day and that the cost of any alternate arrangements will not be reimbursed.

 

[Starmill]

If you book an Advance for the last train of the day, according to the timetable in place at the time of purchasing the Advance ticket, and the service is removed from the timetable or cancelled for any other reason is the passenger expected to wait for the first train the following day? If they made alternate arrangements such as a hotel, taxi or purchased a new ticket in order to travel with a different TOC what would be their rights to claim this money back from the offending TOC?

I have visions of SWR telling the passenger in this situation that they have to wait at the station for several hours for the next train the following day and that the cost of any alternate arrangements will not be reimbursed.

SWR must make alternative arrangements if there's no train. If the customer wants to use the next train, however, they can do.

 

[3rd rail land]

SWR must make alternative arrangements if there's no train. If the customer wants to use the next train, however, they can do.

What happens when they refuse to make alternate arrangements or reimburse for alternate arrangements made by the passenger? I suspect most people would make their own arrangements and accept the financial hit thus telling SWR they can get away with breaking the law and treating passengers like dirt.

 

[Starmill]

What happens when they refuse to make alternate arrangements or reimburse for alternate arrangements made by the passenger? I suspect most people would make their own arrangements and accept the financial hit thus telling SWR they can get away with breaking the law and treating passengers like dirt.

I think that the second part of your post answers the first.

If someone has to pay for their own alternative, because the company didn't provide one, they can complain to the Rail Ombudsman or simply sue in the County Court. The customer would need to mitigate any losses, for example by taking a train to the furthest point at which it would be reasonably possible to change to a taxi.

 

[miklcct]

How can the country builds people's confidence in public transport if last departures can be cancelled at will?

First / last departures should be considered a priority when arranging services. If the staff level isn't enough to maintain an hourly service, why can't just it be retimed to run every 90 minutes, or every 2 hours, keeping the first and the last departures at the same time?

 

[jossadb]

I think OP's case is slightly more complex than mine. While in my case there is a very clear alternative solution that I could take and easily make the full journey, OP doesn't have such a clear comparable alternative. I think

From what I can see on Tuesday there should be a 23:25 via Basingstoke that should work. Gets in horribly late though. If you take that then you'd be entitled to a full refund under the Delay Repay scheme.

If there isn't an alternative train, then arguably they should pay for some form of alternative transportation, as provided by Article 16 Regulation (EC) 1371/2007. If SWR can't arrange alternative travel then they are held to pay for his meals and accommodation until taking the first train back in the morning. Art. 18 of the regulation:

2. In the case of any delay as referred to in paragraph 1 of more than 60 minutes, passengers shall also be offered free of charge:

(a)	meals and refreshments in reasonable relation to the waiting time, if they are available on the train or in the station, or can reasonably be supplied;

(b)	hotel or other accommodation, and transport between the railway station and place of accommodation, in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary or an additional stay becomes necessary, where and when physically possible;

 

[Fiyero]

I'm guessing the show on Tuesday 1st February is Wicked at the Apollo Victoria and the first performance by the new cast including Lucie Jones

According to both National Rail Enquiries and Southwestern Railways website there's a 22.44 departure from Victoria arriving Eastleigh 00.22 and a 23.14 arriving 00.59, both involving a change at Clapham Junction.

Is it the case that neither of these services is actually running and both information sources are incorrect ?

Yes, I have a great seat for Lucie’s first show, booked as soon as she was announced after checking the general timetable. Later on I booked an advance on the 23:05 out of Waterloo, i prefer tube to Waterloo to get on an emptier train (though I imagine on a Tuesday that’s less of an issue than the weekend) and I can’t get an advance for Eastleigh to Victoria anyway. That train is the one that gets to Eastleigh at 00:22 but doesn’t exist on the amended timetable, that only exists in ‘paper’ form!

 

[_toommm_]

Yes, I have a great seat for Lucie’s first show, booked as soon as she was announced after checking the general timetable. Later on I booked an advance on the 23:05 out of Waterloo, i prefer tube to Waterloo to get on an emptier train (though I imagine on a Tuesday that’s less of an issue than the weekend) and I can’t get an advance for Eastleigh to Victoria anyway. That train is the one that gets to Eastleigh at 00:22 but doesn’t exist on the amended timetable, that only exists in ‘paper’ form!

Let us know how Lucie does in Wicked please! I absolutely loved her in Waitress and saw her a few times in it both on tour and the West End.

 

[Wolfie]

SWR seem almost impossible to deal with on their timetable changes... even on advance tickets, they blankly refuse to take responsibility

I repeat, sue them. If they start getting serious volumes of claims they may actually get off their butts and comply with their legal obligations. If not it will start costing them serious money.

 

[Fiyero]

I repeat, sue them. If they start getting serious volumes of claims they may actually get off the butts and comply with their legal obligations. If not it will start costing them serious money.

If I had no work the next day I would love to turn up at Waterloo with my valid ticket ready to catch the 23:05. See what they actually do. I can deal with my planned itinerary of getting home by 1am and working by 9am but not much beyond that. I can’t cope with travelling home in the morning to work. If no help was offered I’d pursue my legal rights.

The issue is trying to make a plan in advance. Journey planners still show my train running. 9 days away. I literally can’t book an actual journey home!!

 

[AlterEgo]

I would hope EU261 was availed of!

EC261 does not apply if the cancellation was more than two weeks in advance.

 

[infobleep]

If you book an Advance for the last train of the day, according to the timetable in place at the time of purchasing the Advance ticket, and the service is removed from the timetable or cancelled for any other reason is the passenger expected to wait for the first train the following day? If they made alternate arrangements such as a hotel, taxi or purchased a new ticket in order to travel with a different TOC what would be their rights to claim this money back from the offending TOC?

I have visions of SWR telling the passenger in this situation that they have to wait at the station for several hours for the next train the following day and that the cost of any alternate arrangements will not be reimbursed.

Some stations are locked at night.

EC261 does not apply if the cancellation was more than two weeks in advance.

Which in the case of the flight it was.

 

[extendedpaul]

Yes, I have a great seat for Lucie’s first show, booked as soon as she was announced after checking the general timetable. Later on I booked an advance on the 23:05 out of Waterloo, i prefer tube to Waterloo to get on an emptier train (though I imagine on a Tuesday that’s less of an issue than the weekend) and I can’t get an advance for Eastleigh to Victoria anyway. That train is the one that gets to Eastleigh at 00:22 but doesn’t exist on the amended timetable, that only exists in ‘paper’ form!

The Wicked theatre is is right across the road from Victoria and there are frequent trains to Clapham Junction from where you could board the train to Eastleigh. Even with an advance ticket from Waterloo that shouldn't be a problem at that time of night and it's just a cross platform connection. It's also quicker than travelling from Victoria to Waterloo by tube or bus.

I'm still a bit confused though - is it confirmed that the 23.05 and 23.35 from Waterloo are both not running anyway next Tuesday and NRE and SWT websites are currently both incorrect ? The 23.05 service is ideally timed for getting home after theatre trips with very low priced advances so I can appreciate your dismay. If it's a busy train at the weekend surely a fair number of intending passengers will just up and expect a train on a weekday ?

(I'm a big fan of Lucie Jones too and a regular participant on the theatre equivalent of this forum - TheatreBoard.)

 

[jossadb]

EC261 does not apply if the cancellation was more than two weeks in advance.

It doesn't apply in regards to compensation - the rest of the regulation, such as the right to rerouting and to assistance (means and accomodation) still stands.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is trying to make a plan in advance.

The nature of the present COVID related situation is such that it is imprudent to make plans that don't have a decent level of flexibility in general at the moment. SWR have not helped this by selling Advances, of course, and so to me what I'd have done if I were them is to remove them all and also stop advance sales of walk-up tickets until timetables are confirmed. (They could do this by setting the compulsory reservation flag on everything and setting a zero quota).

I'd consider booking an evening theatre trip but only because I have the option to drive (either all the way or to a different line). If I didn't drive I'd not contemplate the idea at the moment.

Consumer rights in this case differ from practical reality. Some people on here like the idea of pursuing things through Courts, and good on them. But in practice, most people don't enjoy Court cases and simply want a friction-free trip, which at the moment means not relying on the last couple of trains on any line.

 

[Fiyero]

The nature of the present COVID related situation is such that it is imprudent to make plans that don't have a decent level of flexibility in general at the moment. SWR have not helped this by selling Advances, of course, and so to me what I'd have done if I were them is to remove them all and also stop advance sales of walk-up tickets until timetables are confirmed. (They could do this by setting the compulsory reservation flag on everything and setting a zero quota).

I'd consider booking an evening theatre trip but only because I have the option to drive (either all the way or to a different line). If I didn't drive I'd not contemplate the idea at the moment.

Consumer rights in this case differ from practical reality. Some people on here like the idea of pursuing things through Courts, and good on them. But in practice, most people don't enjoy Court cases and simply want a friction-free trip, which at the moment means not relying on the last couple of trains on any line.

That’s the thing, I wasn’t relying on the last train - there was at least one more. I’m currently on a weekend away (long weekend!) and am of the opinion that I need to keep on living, as long as I take action to reduce risks. I have brought so many masks, LFTs and hand sanitisers with me!
Even now, 8 days out, the train I wish to take is showing on the journey planner. It even still had cheap advance fares available.

I take the risk that if there are government restrictions imposed plans will have to change (they have for me already, I was supposed be on Eurostar to Disneyland right now instead of in a Wetherspoons) but this feels more of a business decision than that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I take the risk that if there are government restrictions imposed plans will have to change (they have for me already, I was supposed be on Eurostar to Disneyland right now instead of in a Wetherspoons) but this feels more of a business decision than that.

It's a business decision in the sense of "if we prune our timetable, we will be able to operate what is left much more reliably". It's a prudent decision that has had some unfortunate effects, primarily caused by the fact that they have sold Advances on it.

I’m currently on a weekend away (long weekend!) and am of the opinion that I need to keep on living, as long as I take action to reduce risks. I have brought so many masks, LFTs and hand sanitisers with me!

To make it clear I wasn't saying "it is imprudent for COVID risk reasons" (there's another subforum for that sort of discussion), I was more saying that "because there is such a staff absence problem at the moment, it would be imprudent to plan something non-changeable that required rail travel to be viable, particularly late in the evening". That's easier for a driver to say, of course, but if I didn't drive I would be much more cautious in my planning, and would certainly not book anything non-refundable and non-changeable of significant value that wasn't also reachable practically by bus / where a taxi would cost too much due to the distance.

In essence it's the same as if there was a known period of industrial dispute coming up, as the effects are basically the same. As a comparison, I'd not have booked a non changeable evening theatre visit if I didn't drive and I lived in Southernland while the DOO dispute was going on.

It's not true for some in here who seem to enjoy doing so, but I plan my life such that I'm not likely to need to go around sueing everyone.

 

[Fiyero]

I guess it’s finding that balance. I booked a £25 theatre ticket speedily. If I’d waited for certainty on the trains I may have paid nearer £80 for a similarly close seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess it’s finding that balance. I booked a £25 theatre ticket speedily. If I’d waited for certainty on the trains I may have paid nearer £80 for a similarly close seat.

It is - in the end you choose your own risk level when spending, at the moment it's looking likely you'll need to do one of:

1. Lose the £25 (not such a big sum to lose I suppose, I'd risk £25, but probably not £50 - I often pay about 20 quid for gig tickets speculatively and don't end up going)
2. Not go and attempt to sue SWR for the £25 via Money Claim Online
3. Go and pay for a taxi from e.g. Basingstoke
3a. Do 3, but attempt to sue SWR for the cost of the taxi via Money Claim Online
4. Go and turn up at Waterloo and see what they do, which is likely to result in resorting to (3) and if you wish (3a), though probably less conveniently as you'll not get to price up different taxi companies and book one to be sure of it

 

[miklcct]

It is - in the end you choose your own risk level when spending, at the moment it's looking likely you'll need to do one of:

1. Lose the £25 (not such a big sum to lose I suppose, I'd risk £25, but probably not £50 - I often pay about 20 quid for gig tickets speculatively and don't end up going)
2. Not go and attempt to sue SWR for the £25 via Money Claim Online
3. Go and pay for a taxi from e.g. Basingstoke
3a. Do 3, but attempt to sue SWR for the cost of the taxi via Money Claim Online
4. Go and turn up at Waterloo and see what they do, which is likely to result in resorting to (3) and if you wish (3a), though probably less conveniently as you'll not get to price up different taxi companies and book one to be sure of it

Also, a travel insurance may be handy in future trips to mitigate the risk for such scenarios to happen again.

 

[AlterEgo]

Also, a travel insurance may be handy in future trips to mitigate the risk for such scenarios to happen again.

There aren't many - if any - travel insurance policies that will cover this eventuality for such a low sum of money.

It's not true for some in here who seem to enjoy doing so, but I plan my life such that I'm not likely to need to go around sueing everyone.

It is rather a niche pursuit, enthusiastically suing companies. I have only ever done it once, with my phone provider.

If I were the OP I'd just write off the £25 or get a hotel. But I appreciate not everyone would share this view.

 

[Fiyero]

If I were the OP I'd just write off the £25 or get a hotel. But I appreciate not everyone would share this view.

I’ve done that on the Fridays, it is the Tuesday where I have less wiggle room. Wonder if I can work from home from the pub on the Wednesday

 

[jossadb]

SWR have replied saying that they won't do anything as in their Passenger Charter it says 'If an emergency or amended timetable is in place, we’ll publish this beforehand and your Delay Repay compensation for delays is calculated according to the revised timetable'. Completely ignoring the fact that they've sold an Advance ticket with no intention of sticking to it, and the EU Regulations...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I’ve done that on the Fridays, it is the Tuesday where I have less wiggle room. Wonder if I can work from home from the pub on the Wednesday

I've certainly done it. Unless you work with particularly confidential things (and are thus banned from working in a public place) or have a lot of conference calls, in which case fair enough, "working from home" really means "working from anywhere with a good enough Internet connection".

Spoons is quite good for it, you buy one 99p coffee and sit there all day refilling it for nowt, and don't need to feel bad about it because you're just costing their objectionable owner money. Costabucks etc also work but cost a bit more.

 

[Wolfie]

SWR have replied saying that they won't do anything as in their Passenger Charter it says 'If an emergency or amended timetable is in place, we’ll publish this beforehand and your Delay Repay compensation for delays is calculated according to the revised timetable'. Completely ignoring the fact that they've sold an Advance ticket with no intention of sticking to it, and the EU Regulations...

Time to brutally point out to the SWR Chief Executive that his frankly pathetic Passenger Charter does not supercede UK legislation and you will not only litigate but seek to involve a super consumer such as Which?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It is rather a niche pursuit, enthusiastically suing companies. I have only ever done it once, with my phone provider.

If I were the OP I'd just write off the £25 or get a hotel. But I appreciate not everyone would share this view.

Not needed to do it yet, touch wood. I would if absolutely necessary, but not over twenty-five quid in the context of an unprecedented level of staff absence across the whole of industry. You'd have to go well over a loss of £100 for me to even consider the hassle and stress of it.

 

[Class800]

SWR have replied saying that they won't do anything as in their Passenger Charter it says 'If an emergency or amended timetable is in place, we’ll publish this beforehand and your Delay Repay compensation for delays is calculated according to the revised timetable'. Completely ignoring the fact that they've sold an Advance ticket with no intention of sticking to it, and the EU Regulations...

They always do the same - do all TOCs or are they uniquely bad? It seems particularly bad with advance tickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

They always do the same - do all TOCs or are they uniquely bad? It seems particularly bad with advance tickets

I've been paid about £250 worth of Delay Repay by Virgin from tickets booked before that bridge failure near Carlisle, so no, not all TOCs do that. Convention is that the timetable against which Delay Repay is calculated is the one in place when the ticket was sold, as that is the basis of the contract.

Of course these rights are separate from DR.

 

[Class800]

Convention is that the timetable against which Delay Repay is calculated is the one in place when the ticket was sold, as that is the basis of the contract.

This is what makes SWR so irritating - they can change the timetable last minute and base everything, even your right to get to your destination, on their last minute changes, and not when you bought the ticket, even for advances. It doesn't seem right.