Tap in/tap out debit card linked to your railcard?

[sprunt]

Payment cards cannot be given information, like a railcard number. They are read only.

It would be possible for TfL to allow a user to register a railcard against their account and then the discount could be applied when applying the charges to any payment card registered with the account. For the moment it creates a revenue protection issue though - to solve that it would need the RPIs to be able to scan the payment card and check it against the database in real time.

 

[87 027]

For the moment it creates a revenue protection issue though - to solve that it would need the RPIs to be able to scan the payment card and check it against the database in real time.

Does anyone know what Project Oval's solution is for this revenue protection issue?

 

[JonathanH]

Does anyone know what Project Oval's solution is for this revenue protection issue?

There isn't one yet, according to previous postings - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/nr-discounts-on-london-journeys-tfl.261075/#post-6585340

 

[jagardner1984]

Surely this is where the device payment systems such as Apple Pay / Google Pay could be of use - since the information available on them is much richer. I’m not sure if a device reader sees my debit card stored on my iPhone as any different to the debit card I physically have in my pocket, but regardless, by authenticating a railcard app with Apple Pay - I can then prove validity of the railcard with photo card with that specific debit card, and it seems less likely that this would be a cause of fraud.

Presumably the reticence on this topic is that TfL and the RDG know most journeys are not intercepted by Revenue Protection, and therefore adding a scheme whereby discount is easily applied to a number of contactless cards without authentication is likely to lead to revenue risk.

It also begs the question of why it isn’t possible to store additional micro keys on a standard contactless chip, so for example season ticket information, or indeed discount information could not be stored alongside the card number etc - which would be ignored by standard systems but recognised by specialist ones.

 

[JonathanH]

It also begs the question of why it isn’t possible to store additional micro keys on a standard contactless chip

Either TfL would have to become a bank, or the banks would have to agree to that information being placed on their cards. Neither seems an obvious way forward.

 

[jagardner1984]

Either TfL would have to become a bank, or the banks would have to agree to that information being placed on their cards. Neither seems an obvious way forward.

Well yes - obviously not suggesting that is currently possible - but that as a further development of the contactless system - not related to rail particularly - I wonder whether future iterations of RFID based payment systems might include extra information - that might be useful in this scenario (amongst many others). As it is, we seem to be trying to design systems around authentication by a single number, which is clearly a limiting factor.

 

[Richardr]

Surely this is where the device payment systems such as Apple Pay / Google Pay could be of use - since the information available on them is much richer. I’m not sure if a device reader sees my debit card stored on my iPhone as any different to the debit card I physically have in my pocket, but regardless, by authenticating a railcard app with Apple Pay - I can then prove validity of the railcard with photo card with that specific debit card, and it seems less likely that this would be a cause of fraud.

Presumably the reticence on this topic is that TfL and the RDG know most journeys are not intercepted by Revenue Protection, and therefore adding a scheme whereby discount is easily applied to a number of contactless cards without authentication is likely to lead to revenue risk.

It also begs the question of why it isn’t possible to store additional micro keys on a standard contactless chip, so for example season ticket information, or indeed discount information could not be stored alongside the card number etc - which would be ignored by standard systems but recognised by specialist ones.

Where would that end? Would it have other loyalty cards, such as Tesco Clubcard, Nectar, Pret, M&S, Starbucks, Costa, and others, all of which I have and many others others have? Can a contactless card carry all of that as well?

 

[jagardner1984]

Where would that end? Would it have other loyalty cards, such as Tesco Clubcard, Nectar, Pret, M&S, Starbucks, Costa, and others, all of which I have and many others others have? Can a contactless card carry all of that as well?

I think most people would understand the limitations of speed that readers would need to be able to read and process within some milliseconds.

But in my theoretical system, let’s call it “Easy Keys” I could choose a handful (say 5 as a maximum) of daily use keys which I would like to be enabled by my contactless card. So for example in this instance - I’d store my railcard on my card (your railcard app would generate a unique single use code which you would paste in to your banking app) and therefore if you lost the card or wanted to use it with another card, you would have to generate a new code which would remove the validity of the first.

It is interesting, in terms of pure payment, how I now rarely get my payment card out of my pocket, using my phone in preference almost always.

I am surprised in a sense that travel operators haven’t produced some form of virtual payment card which contains their season ticket data - and thus would use the “express travel card” facility to combine whatever pieces of information - payment - season ticket - carnet ticket - railcard data - into one combined payment tool.

 

[Starmill]

KeyGo doesn't write railcard discounts to cards (at least didn't use to), so is effectively the same situation as associating a railcard with a card number online.

There is absolutely no excuse for TfL not to have introduced support by now, and for new contactless schemes in other cities (hopefully with different suppliers) supporting it from the start.

It's not their call alone though is it. What about every other TOC apart from GTR who wants the ability to inspect railcards? They can't just undo that.

In any case, if GTR suspect KeyGo fraud, they have a name and address from which to base an investigation. With a contactless card you have a number (which you're not even allowed to see all of) and that's it, nothing else.

I think most people would understand the limitations of speed that readers would need to be able to read and process within some milliseconds.

But in my theoretical system, let’s call it “Easy Keys” I could choose a handful (say 5 as a maximum) of daily use keys which I would like to be enabled by my contactless card. So for example in this instance - I’d store my railcard on my card (your railcard app would generate a unique single use code which you would paste in to your banking app) and therefore if you lost the card or wanted to use it with another card, you would have to generate a new code which would remove the validity of the first.

It is interesting, in terms of pure payment, how I now rarely get my payment card out of my pocket, using my phone in preference almost always.

I am surprised in a sense that travel operators haven’t produced some form of virtual payment card which contains their season ticket data - and thus would use the “express travel card” facility to combine whatever pieces of information - payment - season ticket - carnet ticket - railcard data - into one combined payment tool.

ITSO mobile was looked at for precisely this.

 

[Trainbike46]

To me the obvious solution would be to move oyster cards (or other TfL issued cards) to the same back office processing as the contactless system; that way it would work everywhere contactless works and you could still write the contactless discount onto the card.

Other systems, such as Manchester's could go a similar route by using system-issued cards for railcard discounts, any other discounts they may want to do, etc.

 

[SynthD]

I’m not sure if a device reader sees my debit card stored on my iPhone as any different to the debit card I physically have in my pocket, but regardless, by authenticating a railcard app with Apple Pay - I can then prove validity of the railcard with photo card with that specific debit card…

The card shown by Apple Pay changes on each use. While there is a workaround (TfL originated I believe) for transport payment, it won’t take a railcard.

To me the obvious solution would be to move oyster cards (or other TfL issued cards) to the same back office processing as the contactless system

That is the plan, and weekly capping was the first step.

 

[jagardner1984]

The card shown by Apple Pay changes on each use. While there is a workaround (TfL originated I believe) for transport payment, it won’t take a railcard.

So this would suggest that there is some acknowledged way for a virtual card number (that generated by Apple Pay) to be authenticated by a real card linked to a real account (ie your bank setup with Apple Pay).

Therefore - to my main point, it doesn’t seem inconceivable that a virtual payment card, on which your season ticket / PAYG credit / railcard discount could be applied, and treated by the device as a payment card for that purpose.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Worth noting that Google Pay does, I believe, just hand over the card number to the merchant, it's a much "thinner" intermediate layer than Apple Pay is.

So if Apple creates an issue, it's down to them to make it work or lose the processing fees as iPhone using Railcard users have to switch to using a card. It would appear that given that they did make it work for TfL they would do for other contexts too in order not to lose those processing fees.

 

[Howardh]

When I go to a shop and reach the self-service till, I firstly scan my clubcard, then scan my goods and tap my credit card and the payment is as per clubcard.

Could a railcard with chip + reader programmed to accept railcard followed by credit card so you tap in one followed by the other, then tap out with just the credit card, so you get that discount? Could readers be re-programmed that way (if railcards had chips) or would everythign have to start from fresh?

 

[Trainbike46]

When I go to a shop and reach the self-service till, I firstly scan my clubcard, then scan my goods and tap my credit card and the payment is as per clubcard.

Could a railcard with chip + reader programmed to accept railcard followed by credit card so you tap in one followed by the other, then tap out with just the credit card, so you get that discount? Could readers be re-programmed that way (if railcards had chips) or would everythign have to start from fresh?

It would massively slow down things at the gateline, and given that TfL (and to a lesser extent other operators) seem to like to keep things moving to avoid overcrowding that doesn't seem like a good idea

 

[JonathanH]

With more revenue protection staff, something like that could work for inspections, that is you would have to scan a railcard first at a ticket inspection before having the payment card scanned. It would then be a condition that a revenue inspection where the railcard isn't scanned before the payment card would be treated as a failure. However, it is a fairly awkward process.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would massively slow down things at the gateline, and given that TfL (and to a lesser extent other operators) seem to like to keep things moving to avoid overcrowding that doesn't seem like a good idea

Japan actually has gatelines where you insert two tickets and the gateline reads both and sorts them out very quickly, I seem to recall they're used when switching between separately-ticketed routes. So it's possible, but I'd agree it's not a great idea.

With more revenue protection staff, something like that could work for inspections, that is you would have to scan a railcard first at a ticket inspection before having the payment card scanned. It would then be a condition that a revenue inspection where the railcard isn't scanned before the payment card would be treated as a failure. However, it is a fairly awkward process.

You'd not need more revenue inspections than now, because Railcards are already not inspected at gatelines now.

 

[snalty]

Surely this is where the device payment systems such as Apple Pay / Google Pay could be of use - since the information available on them is much richer. I’m not sure if a device reader sees my debit card stored on my iPhone as any different to the debit card I physically have in my pocket, but regardless, by authenticating a railcard app with Apple Pay - I can then prove validity of the railcard with photo card with that specific debit card, and it seems less likely that this would be a cause of fraud.

Presumably the reticence on this topic is that TfL and the RDG know most journeys are not intercepted by Revenue Protection, and therefore adding a scheme whereby discount is easily applied to a number of contactless cards without authentication is likely to lead to revenue risk.

It also begs the question of why it isn’t possible to store additional micro keys on a standard contactless chip, so for example season ticket information, or indeed discount information could not be stored alongside the card number etc - which would be ignored by standard systems but recognised by specialist ones.

Apple Pay and Google Pay support automatic presentation of a contactless pass with a payment card. The barriers could be set to request a railcard with payment if one is available in the mobile wallet.

I think there would probably need to be some work done on Apple's side to support pass presentation with Express Transit but it's probably doable. Should be fine on Android with Google Wallet with no additional work.