• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Tariffs… and mark 3 stock

railpigeon

Member
Joined
23 Oct 2024
Messages
32
Location
Oxford
Tariffs are the subject of the day.

But is my memory right in recalling a metal clip beside the tables on mark 3 coaches with the word ‘tariff’ etched on it? This would have been a memory from the mid- to late-80s.

What was it for?

And was it those tariffs that made HSTs great?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
103,846
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
The buffet tariff, i.e. the menu. The term "tariff" is still commonly used on pub price lists that must (or had to in the past, anyway) legally be displayed by the bar - usually these are headed "bar tariff".
 

AY1975

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,945
The buffet tariff, i.e. the menu.
Or the restaurant car menu in First Class coaches that were being used as restaurant cars?

I do remember those metal clips with the word "tariff" on but I don't actually ever remember seeing them being used, except maybe in restaurant cars. I would guess that they were mainly used in the early days of Mark 3s when buffet stewards would often serve tea and coffee at-seat. As I recall those "tariff" clips remained in situ with the first Mark 3 refurbishment in the 1980s, although I'm not sure if they were still used much by then. I think they were removed with the post-privatisation refurbishments, though.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
10,617
Location
Up the creek
There is, I think, a slight difference between a tariff and a menu in the catering, etc. trade. A tariff is specifically about displaying the price of everything that is offered, while a menu is a list of what is available. In practice there is rarely going to be much difference. I wonder if it is one of these odd bits of law: some Act in 18XX stated that a tariff of comestibles must be displayed on trains offering them and the word remained in use because that is what the law said. In recent years the rule may have been repealed or possibly just fallen out of use because nobody realises that to do so is breaking the law.
 

stuving

Member
Joined
26 Jan 2017
Messages
474
Tariff comes into English from Italian meaning a list of customs duties, and with specific connotations of notification and itemised list. It then keeps that general meaning of customs duties, while being used more widely for an itemised list of charges. These may not be item prices, but could be per-unit quantity prices, or charges (originally customs again) included in a price.

I associate it with drinks, hotels in general, electricity, and telephones. But recently some mobile phone companies decided it means just charge, and applied it to their single-price packages. So they end up with an itemised list of "out-of-tariff call charges", completely inverting the meaning. I guess that was due to ignorance, rather than anything more malign.
 
Last edited:

Class15

Established Member
Joined
30 Dec 2021
Messages
2,917
Location
North London or Mildmay line
Tariffs is the most beautiful word in the dictionary, and I think here it is used as a list of prices, as stated upthread, rather than anything to do with world trade!

There is, I think, a slight difference between a tariff and a menu in the catering, etc. trade. A tariff is specifically about displaying the price of everything that is offered, while a menu is a list of what is available. In practice there is rarely going to be much difference. I wonder if it is one of these odd bits of law: some Act in 18XX stated that a tariff of comestibles must be displayed on trains offering them and the word remained in use because that is what the law said. In recent years the rule may have been repealed or possibly just fallen out of use because nobody realises that to do so is breaking the law.
Hang on; do you mean that a menu doesn’t show the prices? It always seems to.
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
10,617
Location
Up the creek
Hang on; do you mean that a menu doesn’t show the prices? It always seems to.

I think it is a fine difference. I think that a tariff must specifically show the prices, while a menu does not have to. However, a menu usually does show prices, if sometimes in a rather vague fashion. I am here remembering something I was told a fair few years ago and it is possible that it is the difference between a specific, legal and possibly archaic meaning of one, and the general use of the other.
 

The exile

Established Member
Joined
31 Mar 2010
Messages
4,660
Location
Somerset
I think it is a fine difference. I think that a tariff must specifically show the prices, while a menu does not have to. However, a menu usually does show prices, if sometimes in a rather vague fashion. I am here remembering something I was told a fair few years ago and it is possible that it is the difference between a specific, legal and possibly archaic meaning of one, and the general use of the other.
One difference ( in this country at least) is that on a food menu you might be told that "chicken and chips" is available (and possibly that it'll set you back £10.95) - but it won't tell you what weight of chicken you're going to get (steak usually being the exception). You do get restaurant menus that don't include prices - usually aimed at a clientele that wants people to think they don't need to worry about money.
Bar prices have to specify not only what you're getting - but also how much of it (and ABV % as well?) and what it will cost.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
2,222
Given train restaurants were serving alcohol maybe it was a separate bar tariff that was being displayed on appropriate services? If you had all table service you would have no bar to display a tariff at, much like some restaurants don't (and might explain the comprehensive separately drinks/wine list you get alongside your menu).
 

stuving

Member
Joined
26 Jan 2017
Messages
474
What I said before was based in a recent Chambers Dictionary. Chambers 20th Century Dictionary of both 1964 and 1983 has just "a list or set of customs duties: a list of charges". Going back to Dyche's dictionary of 1777 gives "the rate or publick custom to be paid by those who import or export goods; also a table ready computed to shew the amount of various quantities of goods, etc.". That last bit is less clear (to us) - are those "amounts" money, charges, customs, or what? But the two fundamental meanings of customs duties, and a list of charges (not quite the same as prices) are consistent.

Exactly where the word got used most at any time is more a matter of idiom, or custom in the other sense, than meaning. It also crops up in news reports somewhat randomly, for example for channel tunnel fares, as well as the more common places such as hotels, electricity, and similar. I suspect it use for a bar and buffet tarif was customary in the 60s, and perhaps seem as a bit upmarket due to the association with hotels.

And was a price list compulsory in bars or anywhere else? It is now, but the earliest regulation I can find is the Price Marking (Drinks on Premises) Order 1975. To my surprise, there are questions in Parliament (both Hansards) that make it clear this was the first such order. Ransacking my poor old memory, I now think perhaps price lists were not always found in bars, and those there were tended to be placed where they were hard to see. So making them easy to find was good practice, adopted by businesses that wanted to make it clear they were not out to cheat anyone. And of course those (like BR) who were feared by potential customers to be expensive would need to reassure them just how much they were in for.
 

Top