Telegraph Poles for Fibre Broadband

[westv]

I'm not sure if this is just a Hull thing or not.
Our local telecoms provider in Hull, KCom, has over recent years created a full fibre network in the city. A lot of this has had to be done via new telegraph poles - including our road.
Recently we have had two new entrants into the market (MS3 and Connexin). They claim that can only access the Hull market by building there own network of poles and wires - meaning that streets which were once clear now have 3 sets of telegraph poles (again, ours included). KCom claim they do allow access to their network but the facts are debated on local FB pages and elswhere.
The proliferation of poles has annoyed a lot of people here (personally I'm ok but I can understand why people are irate).
Has this situation impacted anywhere else in the country?

Broadband row in Hedon as MS3 Networks plans to install poles

MS3 Networks says its presence in the town will result in cheaper broadband deals for residents.

www.bbc.co.uk

In Hedon Town Hall, battle lines were drawn; concerned residents determined to stop the advance of MS3 Networks.
Word had reached homeowners this local company, which has already installed poles in Hull, now has this Georgian market town in its sights, with installations scheduled to begin this week.
Many here are furious.

 

[peri]

I do find it strange that the two new companies are not sharing the new poles.

 

[najaB]

I do find it strange that the two new companies are not sharing the new poles.

The issue is that one of the conditions of BT's licence is that they have to allow other CPs to use their network where it is technically feasible. KCom isn't subject to the same conditions.

 

[BanburyBlue]

I'm not sure if this is just a Hull thing or not.
The local telecoms provider KCom has over recent years created a full fibre network in the city. A lot of this has had to be done via new telegraph poles.
Recently we have had two new entrants into the market (MS3 and Connexin). They claim that can only access the Hull market by building there own network of poles and wires - meaning that streets which were once clear now have 3 sets of telegraph poles. KCom claim they do allow access tp their network but the facts are debated.
The proliferation of poles has annoyed a lot of people here (personally I'm ok but I can understand why people are irate).
Has this situation impacted anywhere else in the country?

Normally no reason for an existing underground fed estate, that fibre couldn't be underground as well. Poles are used as it's cheaper than digging up the road. And Indeed, no reason why communication providers can't share infrastructure.

Round here, our estate was already pole fed, and other new entrants used BT poles. As KCom are the BT equivalent in Hull, I can't see why other providers couldn't use their poles.

I can totally understand why people object to having poles installed, on a previous underground fed estate.

 

[westv]

The issue is that one of the conditions of BT's licence is that they have to allow other CPs to use their network where it is technically feasible. KCom isn't subject to the same conditions.

KCom claim that they do allow access. The other operators say that the access isn't financially viable. I'm guessing that KCom are operating as close to the letter of the law as they can.

 

[najaB]

I'm guessing that KCom are operating as close to the letter of the law as they can.

To be fair, so are BT. They don't allow access to their ducts and poles out of the goodness of their hearts.

Effectively, that's billions of pounds worth of infrastructure investment that they have to give away to their competitors.

 

[BanburyBlue]

To be fair, so are BT. They don't allow access to their ducts and poles out of the goodness of their hearts.

Effectively, that's billions of pounds worth of infrastructure investment that they have to give away to their competitors.

But I'm fairly sure OFCOM keep an eye on BT, and I'm guessing KCOM in Hull, to make sure BT/KCOM charge a fair price to access their ducts and poles.
I believe the argument went that BT/KCOM were public assets so only fair that other providers have the right to access them.

 

[dangie]

Interesting. On our estate over the last few weeks new telegraph poles have sprouted up.

 

[najaB]

But I'm fairly sure OFCOM keep an eye on BT, and I'm guessing KCOM in Hull, to make sure BT/KCOM charge a fair price to access their ducts and poles.

They do. But KCom usually plays the "we're a just a minnow in comparison to BT" card. So they're allowed to set their access charges higher than BT is.

 

[swt_passenger]

Interesting. On our estate over the last few weeks new telegraph poles have sprouted up.

I wonder why are they still generally referred to as telegraph poles, when most were put up as telephone poles, and now I suppose they‘re really internet poles…

 

[Energy]

The issue is that one of the conditions of BT's licence is that they have to allow other CPs to use their network where it is technically feasible. KCom isn't subject to the same conditions.

KCOM are, all major operators are subject to it. Virgin Media is an exception while its a cable operator.

KCOM either has higher charges (they aren't public) or more likely the procedure for access is much more complicated than for BT. AFAIK all of Hull is ducted for KCOM, outside of Hull there are BT poles.

 

[Trackman]

I wonder why are they still generally referred to as telegraph poles, when most were put up as telephone poles, and now I suppose they‘re really internet poles…

What do these things look like? Telegraph/Internet poles or whatever...

KCOM are, all major operators are subject to it. Virgin Media is an exception while its a cable operator.

This is what I was led to believe too, had a discussion about this with a VM technician a while back.

 

[najaB]

KCOM are, all major operators are subject to it. Virgin Media is an exception while its a cable operator.

I probably didn't word it correctly, but while KCom do have to open their network to other operators, the specific terms under which they have to do so are different to BT's.

At least they were when I worked for BT, I don't really follow the industry that closely any more.

 

[Energy]

I probably didn't word it correctly, but while KCom do have to open their network to other operators, the specific terms under which they have to do so are different to BT's.

At least they were when I worked for BT, I don't really follow the industry that closely any more.

Under the 2016 Ofcom Guidance, they all have to offer access, along with electricity companies and a few others that aren't quite as relevant.

However, they are only required to give a response within 2 months of receiving a request, and the form in which they respond isn't specified so operators are free to respond on paper and refuse to digitise it. They also don't have to provide information they don't know, this applies less to new altnets who should hopefully have detailed maps of their infrastructure but for electricity networks and old BT infrastructure that hasn't been mapped out it can lead to information being sparse.

BT has had a lot of pressure from Ofcom so their processes for PIA are far more streamlined than anybody else, AFAIK its all-digital, and BT is fairly generous with applying retrospectively for emergency access. BT's streamlined processes are a good indicator of why most altnets are happy to use BT but few use the poles of local power networks.

Its also irritating that altnets like Cityfibre are building their networks as direct-in-ground blown microduct to presumably get around this. They can argue that the one microduct per house can't take more than the fibre of the altnet so there is no space.

 

[najaB]

Thanks for that. Like I said it's been a while since I left BT, but a common complaint from my Openreach buddies (a few of the planners say opposite me) was that they couldn't get easy access to other network operators' infrastructure.

 

[Energy]

Thanks for that. Like I said it's been a while since I left BT, but a common complaint from my Openreach buddies (a few of the planners say opposite me) was that they couldn't get easy access to other network operators' infrastructure.

Yes, access to particularly Virgin Media's network would help BT a lot. In Aberdeen, they reused some disused cable ducts.

To be fair to Virgin, their ducts tend to be very full.

 

[sor]

There have been instances where people have griped over a single new pole installed by Openreach for FTTP.

Regarding KCom - this has been a long standing issue even in the days when copper was king. All BT customers had multiple choices of ISP, some of whom had their own equipment in BT's exchanges. KCom theoretically had to offer the same access but no one bothered to take them up on it - too expensive and too small an area to bother, as I understand it. So KCom was the only ISP and they generally charged handsomely for the privilege.

Its also irritating that altnets like Cityfibre are building their networks as direct-in-ground blown microduct to presumably get around this. They can argue that the one microduct per house can't take more than the fibre of the altnet so there is no space.

Might not have filtered down to all of their areas. I live in an area that's now double overbuilt (Openreach were first to FTTP, then Trooli, and now CityFibre). Trooli clearly just used PIA, the only real visual impact was a huge green cabinet (probably double in height/width to anything Openreach uses) right next to a BT manhole. CityFibre have carved through every pavement resulting in a fairly wobbly black line as it doesn't match the existing pavement. I grew up in an all-overhead area and I'd rather have the wooden poles...

Given the size I doubt it's microduct. And of course, none of the three companies have made arrangements with any of the blocks of flats in the vicinity!

 

[westv]

Do we happen to know how much more expensive KCom are compares to BT with regards to access? Or is the info not public?

 

[dgl]

I do believe that one issue competitors did have in hull is that they used thinner wiring and as such the equipment needed was a fair bit more expensive.

 

[Buzby]

I’m surprised the use of ‘poles’ for fibre. Underground in ducts, certainly - but I was on a training course when fibre was being rolled out (primarily for trunks and intra-exchange working not for customers unless they were big). The bottom line was that fibre had low mechanical strength and had minimum radii it could be bent. Stringing it between poles was only a temporary measure until the ducts were prepared and ready, apparently the constant movement would lead to fracturing and a drop in capacity.

Whilst the technology has improved, unless there has been some generational progress in protecting a suspended cable (is there- I don’t know?) but suspending a fibre connection seems a recipe for disaster.

 

[najaB]

Whilst the technology has improved, unless there has been some generational progress in protecting a suspended cable (is there- I don’t know?) but suspending a fibre connection seems a recipe for disaster

It's an armoured cable type that resists bending. They tested it down in Devon for a year or two and didn't have lots of issues.

 

[pdq]

I’m surprised the use of ‘poles’ for fibre.

CityFibre installed fibre in our estate last year in narrow trenches. But the existing poles are used to get the fibre into the house, rather than more digging.

 

[Ken X]

The poles in Horsham are now mostly fitted with smart yellow labels stating "Beware overhead fibre" so I guess the challenge has been met.

Our neighbour has had Virgin Fibre Broadband fitted and they put a wire across from the nearest BT post even though his BT line is subterranean.

 

[Energy]

Our neighbour has had Virgin Fibre Broadband fitted and they put a wire across from the nearest BT post even though his BT line is subterranean.

His line might be direct-in-ground which is the cable placed in the ground, with no ducting. The underground/DIG/pole for phone lines is 25/25/50% with most new poles being due to DIG.

Virgin Media generally use ducts wherever possible.

Do we happen to know how much more expensive KCom are compares to BT with regards to access? Or is the info not public?

Pricing for Openreach is public, pricing of KCOM isn't AFAIK.

Given the size I doubt it's microduct.

If it serves houses its very likely to be a bundle of microducts.

Might not have filtered down to all of their areas. I live in an area that's now double overbuilt (Openreach were first to FTTP, then Trooli, and now CityFibre). Trooli clearly just used PIA, the only real visual impact was a huge green cabinet (probably double in height/width to anything Openreach uses) right next to a BT manhole. CityFibre have carved through every pavement resulting in a fairly wobbly black line as it doesn't match the existing pavement. I grew up in an all-overhead area and I'd rather have the wooden poles...

Trooli is PIA only AFAIK. CityFibre is a strange split, sometimes they use PIA and sometimes they build it themselves.

I don't really understand why when the poles are already there. Building your own ducting can make sense if you have high enough take up that not having to pay BT's (fairly small) charges over a long period of time can pay off the infrastructure. But that makes an already risky investment far more risky.

It also is more disruptive as they dig up the pavement (usually not well received) and have a far more involved install getting it across the drive/front garden.

 

[Ken X]

His line might be direct-in-ground which is the cable placed in the ground, with no ducting. The underground/DIG/pole for phone lines is 25/25/50% with most new poles being due to DIG.

This is right they are DIG. Our group of houses were built in 1969. My elderly neighbour put the phone lines in and says they put two lines to each house as the joints were buried in the pavement and some redundancy was planned for. The rest of the road is on poles, one of which was handily located for Virgin to use for my neighbour.

 

[Buzby]

It's an armoured cable type that resists bending. They tested it down in Devon for a year or two and didn't have lots of issues.

Just wait until the Broughty Ferry Neds get a look-in!

CityFibre installed fibre in our estate last year in narrow trenches. But the existing poles are used to get the fibre into the house, rather than more digging.

Did the same in mine - they came along 20-odd years after Clyde Cablevision > NTL > Virgin. I liked the idea of going with them for true fibre (as Virgin are only offering Co-ax feeds in my area). However CF don’t want customers, preferring to be a wholesaler only. I went wireless broadband instead as I can take it with me!

Our neighbour has had Virgin Fibre Broadband fitted and they put a wire across from the nearest BT post even though his BT line is subterranean.

Is this genuinely fibre (not Co-ax DOCSIS 3.1 with an adaptor - and calls it ‘fibre’)

 

[GusB]

Yes, access to particularly Virgin Media's network would help BT a lot. In Aberdeen, they reused some disused cable ducts.

To be fair to Virgin, their ducts tend to be very full.

I wasn't aware that the cable ducts in Aberdeen were owned by Virgin. They would have been installed by Aberdeen Cable, which then went on to become Atlantic Cable/Telecom and eventually they went bust. Neither of the cable operators at the time (NTL and Telewest) seemed interested in taking over the services that Atlantic provided. If I remember correctly, Atlantic's domestic phone service was via some wireless gadget, rather than traditional cable.

 

[najaB]

If I remember correctly, Atlantic's domestic phone service was via some wireless gadget, rather than traditional cable.

It was before I moved to Dundee, but I believe that they (or a sister company) did the same. You can still see the boxes on a few walls here and there.

 

[westv]

Pricing for Openreach is public, pricing of KCOM isn't AFAIK.

Why does that not surprise me?
Do BT charge one price for access to the entire network?? I mean the provider pays one amount for full access rather than a certain amount per, let's say, 300,000 people?

 

[Energy]

Why does that not surprise me?
Do BT charge one price for access to the entire network?? I mean the provider pays one amount for full access rather than a certain amount per, let's say, 300,000 people?

They have a price list, everything is a billable item with it usually being a couple of pounds per year.

You'll see operators like CommunityFibre put up 1 AFN (aerial fibre node) per pole with a single cable down to minimise PIA charges.

Openreach will let operators pay to have them put a new pole up, perhaps Ofcom should have only allowed permitted development for BT poles and ducts and forced them to do it at less of a markup.