TfGM Bee Network - fleet discussion

[Andyh82]

To be honest, after the front ends for Heywood based school buses, the whole of last week and weekend was spent helping clear Queens Road ready for Stagecoach coming in. We have a Citaro to paint for Manchester College (6215) and a "special project" that I can't disclose yet.

Plus, on top of that, we're off work for a fortnight (it really takes it out of you emptying a bus depot ) so let's see what pans out when we're back

As well as this all the Go North West vehicles have also had to have their legal lettering changed, moving the address from Queens Road to Bolton

 

[Leyland Bus]

As well as this all the Go North West vehicles have also had to have their legal lettering changed, moving the address from Queens Road to Bolton

Correct

 

[Andyh82]

Does anyone know the timescale for when First Manchester will be receiving the new buses that have been ordered for the Bee Network

17 Mellor Strata’s and 16 Volvo/MCV I believe is the order

 

[Lucy Michela]

Anyone got proper confirmation on Stagecoach 49901. It's tracking with no full details, but appears to be using the ID of First's 49901, which is confusing, and therefore leading me to question how genuine it is.

Someone has changed the vehicle type and livery but no one has linked any photos on the history updates on bustimes

 

[Lucy Michela]

It was confirmed somewhere that the BZLs for Stockport would be sent there regardless of the winner in Bee Network, as TfGM put quite a big chunk towards them through ZEBRA funding, Stagecoach just agreed to pay for a portion of the order (something like 20/30%)

Operators are not obliged to take vehicles on. As I understand it the B5 hybrids and Scania’s currently being used by Stagecoach were sold to TFGM by GNW but have not been acquired by Stagecoach but are being loaned until vehicle orders are complete and delivered.
Like wise the B9’s will be returned to Go Ahead and are likely to move East.

I do believe the B9s will potentially head to GNE, but at the same time can't see much use for them there now they took on the MX07s, the MX57s and a bunch of DOEs

 

[Highland050261]

Anyone got proper confirmation on Stagecoach 49901. It's tracking with no full details, but appears to be using the ID of First's 49901, which is confusing, and therefore leading me to question how genuine it is.

Someone has changed the vehicle type and livery but no one has linked any photos on the history updates on bustimes

Not delivered yet but fleet number is correct with 49901 - 4 being the 8.7m Variant and 49101 - 4 being the standard Variant.

 

[47550]

t was confirmed somewhere that the BZLs for Stockport would be sent there regardless of the winner in Bee Network, as TfGM put quite a big chunk towards them through ZEBRA funding, Stagecoach just agreed to pay for a portion of the order (something like 20/30%)

I think I read that the BZLs were originally due this summer. As the new depot is nowhere near ready presumably this will now be delayed ?

 

[Lucy Michela]

Not delivered yet but fleet number is correct with 49901 - 4 being the 8.7m Variant and 49101 - 4 being the standard Variant.

So what buses are tracking as 49901 (I say buses, as yesterday the supposed 49901 did 487s, 53s and 149s, which is obviously two or three buses not one)

 

[py_megapixel]

GNW has sold the Scania’s and B5 hybrids to TFGM and they have entered the vehicle pool, stagecoach have decided to loan them rather than purchase them until enough vehicles of their own are available.

Any idea what their eventual replacements will be? Are there more new-build E400MMCs on order?

 

[Class 466]

Any idea what their eventual replacements will be? Are there more new-build E400MMCs on order?

There's still 23 BYD Electrics & a number of the 82 Enviro 400 MMCs ordered to be delivered.

See here for the gaps in 11801-879: https://bustimes.org/operators/bee-network-bnsm/vehicles

I do still struggle to see how that will replace 51 B9TLs, 20 OmniCity's and the GNW & Oxford B5LHs in use though.

 

[Class 466]

So what buses are tracking as 49901 (I say buses, as yesterday the supposed 49901 did 487s, 53s and 149s, which is obviously two or three buses not one)

It's a spare machine tracking number at the moment being used by about 3 Enviro 200s at once - once the stratas are delivered one will track with this number.

 

[Lucy Michela]

There's still 23 BYD Electrics & a number of the 82 Enviro 400 MMCs ordered to be delivered.

See here for the gaps in 11801-879: https://bustimes.org/operators/bee-network-bnsm/vehicles

I do still struggle to see how that will replace 51 B9TLs, 20 OmniCity's and the GNW & Oxford B5LHs in use though.

Stagecoach did state they plan for their finalised Bee fleet to be nothing older than 2017 built, so I believe the SN17s currently based with the normal operation will join 10859 to replace at least one temporary fleet. I think the B5s were to cover an order shortfall, whilst the B9s and Omnis were to cover the delayed orders - but on that point I'm willing to be corrected

 

[py_megapixel]

There's still 23 BYD Electrics & a number of the 82 Enviro 400 MMCs ordered to be delivered.

See here for the gaps in 11801-879: https://bustimes.org/operators/bee-network-bnsm/vehicles

I do still struggle to see how that will replace 51 B9TLs, 20 OmniCity's and the GNW & Oxford B5LHs in use though.

Stagecoach did state they plan for their finalised Bee fleet to be nothing older than 2017 built, so I believe the SN17s currently based with the normal operation will join 10859 to replace at least one temporary fleet. I think the B5s were to cover an order shortfall, whilst the B9s and Omnis were to cover the delayed orders - but on that point I'm willing to be corrected

So going off Bustimes - which obviously has to be taken with a pinch of salt - and looking at double deckers only, that leaves, by my count

- 23 new-build E400EVs
- 34 new-build E400MMCs
- 77 E400MMCs registered 2017 or later that could transfer from Ashton, Hyde Road or Stockport when they move to Metroline (Ashton/Hyde Road) or when the new Volvos arrive (Stockport)
- 32 E400EVs that could transfer from Sharston when it moves to Metroline
(total of 166 buses)

to replace
- 11 E400 hybrids
- 30 "classic" E400s
- 51 Volvo B9TL Wrights
- 26 Volvo B5LH Wrights
- 20 Scania Omincities
(total of 138 buses)

so if Stagecoach transfers everything new enough that they currently have in Manchester to Bee Network when their commercial operations end, then it's doable with room to spare. (Of course there's no guarantee they will do this but from an outside perspective it doesn't seem unreasonable).

 

[Class 466]

So going off Bustimes - which obviously has to be taken with a pinch of salt - and looking at double deckers only, that leaves, by my count

- 23 new-build E400EVs
- 34 new-build E400MMCs
- 77 E400MMCs registered 2017 or later that could transfer from Ashton, Hyde Road or Stockport when they move to Metroline (Ashton/Hyde Road) or when the new Volvos arrive (Stockport)
- 32 E400EVs that could transfer from Sharston when it moves to Metroline
(total of 166 buses)

to replace
- 11 E400 hybrids
- 30 "classic" E400s
- 51 Volvo B9TL Wrights
- 26 Volvo B5LH Wrights
- 20 Scania Omincities
(total of 138 buses)

so if Stagecoach transfers everything new enough that they currently have in Manchester to Bee Network when their commercial operations end, then it's doable with room to spare. (Of course there's no guarantee they will do this but from an outside perspective it doesn't seem unreasonable).

I dare say the 32 EVs will probably remain at Sharston. All of this does add up however, I think the EVs arriving at Stockport will somewhat unlock this issue of loaned vehicles.

 

[py_megapixel]

I dare say the 32 EVs will probably remain at Sharston. All of this does add up however, I think the EVs arriving at Stockport will somewhat unlock this issue of loaned vehicles.

Indeed. I only counted the E400MMCs with a 17 registration or later but there are plenty of slightly older ones which are basically the same apart from the number plate. So a few of those, even if the Sharston EVs don't move, or perhaps a few transfers in from other Stagecoach subsidiaries would presumably be enough to make up any shortfall.

 

[jimbob185]

So going off Bustimes - which obviously has to be taken with a pinch of salt - and looking at double deckers only, that leaves, by my count

- 23 new-build E400EVs
- 34 new-build E400MMCs
- 77 E400MMCs registered 2017 or later that could transfer from Ashton, Hyde Road or Stockport when they move to Metroline (Ashton/Hyde Road) or when the new Volvos arrive (Stockport)
- 32 E400EVs that could transfer from Sharston when it moves to Metroline
(total of 166 buses)

to replace
- 11 E400 hybrids
- 30 "classic" E400s
- 51 Volvo B9TL Wrights
- 26 Volvo B5LH Wrights
- 20 Scania Omincities
(total of 138 buses)

so if Stagecoach transfers everything new enough that they currently have in Manchester to Bee Network when their commercial operations end, then it's doable with room to spare. (Of course there's no guarantee they will do this but from an outside perspective it doesn't seem unreasonable).

Some of the 77 E400MMC's registered 2017 or later listed on bustimes are only loans to Manchester so shouldn't be transferring. They should be back at their home depots by the time tranche 3 starts, but only if it's later decided that some become part of the Manchester fleet permanently. But it should still keep it well above the 138 that are required for replacement.

 

[Lucy Michela]

Indeed. I only counted the E400MMCs with a 17 registration or later but there are plenty of slightly older ones which are basically the same apart from the number plate. So a few of those, even if the Sharston EVs don't move, or perhaps a few transfers in from other Stagecoach subsidiaries would presumably be enough to make up any shortfall.

I can see potential of the older MMCs moving to Metroline as a sale.

I know the 64s moving to Stagecoach East Mids was cancelled after the company order for Hull took their place of being needed there. However, these are now likely to become the schools fleet. If this is true, there are still the 65s and 16s which could well go to Metroline.

I'd like to add that the one fleet I deffo think SHOULD pass to Metroline to give them 10 less buses to source is the MX12s. As a technically oddball fleet - being the only E40Ds with original bodywork - these could well be used alongside a number of similar aged Enviro 400s from London likely to be replaced by electrics over the next 9 months down in London

Indeed. I only counted the E400MMCs with a 17 registration or later but there are plenty of slightly older ones which are basically the same apart from the number plate. So a few of those, even if the Sharston EVs don't move, or perhaps a few transfers in from other Stagecoach subsidiaries would presumably be enough to make up any shortfall.

I can see potential of the older MMCs moving to Metroline as a sale.

I know the 64s moving to Stagecoach East Mids was cancelled after the company order for Hull took their place of being needed there. However, these are now likely to become the schools fleet. If this is true, there are still the 65s and 16s which could well go to Metroline.

I'd like to add that the one fleet I deffo think SHOULD pass to Metroline to give them 10 less buses to source is the MX12s. As a technically oddball fleet - being the only E40Ds with original bodywork - these could well be used alongside a number of similar aged Enviro 400s from London likely to be replaced by electrics over the next 9 months down in London

 

[cnjb8]

Stagecoach did state they plan for their finalised Bee fleet to be nothing older than 2017 built, so I believe the SN17s currently based with the normal operation will join 10859 to replace at least one temporary fleet. I think the B5s were to cover an order shortfall, whilst the B9s and Omnis were to cover the delayed orders - but on that point I'm willing to be corrected

Do you have a source for that?

 

[GCH100]

I don't think anything other than E400H's would move to Metroline, the E400H's might pass because most of them are based at Manchester by Stagecoach or are now owned by TfGM anyway, and they are also very troublesum, Nothing else would pass to Stagecoach, especially when Stagecoach group have a large number of ALX400's and E400's that could be replaced overall throughout the Group, and of course loans at its Bee Network garages. Although there is nothing to say that Metroline might loan older E400's and then return them to Stagecoach as replacements are sourced, but any E400MMC would be wisked away straight away.

I think you may shortly see a large double-deck order from Comfort Delgro for Manchester quite soon, plus the transfer of their own London fleet, and also purchases of Secondhand Euro 6 ex London Buses from various dealers, then there are odds and ends in Wales, and who's to say they couldn't visit Waarrington and purchase their newer deckers e.g. the two E400 City's plus the other E400's and maybe the ex-Isle of Man B9TL's when Warrington go all electric later on this year. Then another source maybe coach seated E400MMC's from coach operators who may return them off lease, or decide they need to sell them because they aren't making enough money from them or lose school contracts in the Summer.

 

[Cesarcollie]

I don't think anything other than E400H's would move to Metroline, the E400H's might pass because most of them are based at Manchester by Stagecoach or are now owned by TfGM anyway, and they are also very troublesum, Nothing else would pass to Stagecoach, especially when Stagecoach group have a large number of ALX400's and E400's that could be replaced overall throughout the Group, and of course loans at its Bee Network garages. Although there is nothing to say that Metroline might loan older E400's and then return them to Stagecoach as replacements are sourced, but any E400MMC would be wisked away straight away.

I think you may shortly see a large double-deck order from Comfort Delgro for Manchester quite soon, plus the transfer of their own London fleet, and also purchases of Secondhand Euro 6 ex London Buses from various dealers, then there are odds and ends in Wales, and who's to say they couldn't visit Waarrington and purchase their newer deckers e.g. the two E400 City's plus the other E400's and maybe the ex-Isle of Man B9TL's when Warrington go all electric later on this year. Then another source maybe coach seated E400MMC's from coach operators who may return them off lease, or decide they need to sell them because they aren't making enough money from them or lose school contracts in the Summer.

Unfortunately it is unlikely that an order placed now could be delivered for the start of January 2025 - irrespective of manufacturer. And there isn’t a lot of secondhand available- a handful from Warringto, but most of their fleet is pretty old

 

[Lucy Michela]

Do you have a source for that?

Tbh, not anymore. Forgot where I saw it. But, it wouldn't be too hard to pull off, and explains their repaint choices into Yellow.

They only did a few Tridents, and if the depots are now running short of buses, that would be a good reason they did a handful of those.

But the whole network wants buses coming up for 16 years old or more gone as soon as companies can get round to it I think.

I mean, even if that is Stagecoach's plan, they should probably just focus on having the right numbers of buses, then use new orders to withdraw the stuff older than 2017.

What we do know for sure is anything based at Stockport now will be freed up when the BZLs arrive, which includes the rest of the 20-plates, and a good number of older Enviro 400MMCs as well

 

[mayneway]

Any idea what their eventual replacements will be? Are there more new-build E400MMCs on order?

I believe further e400 MMC’s and possibly more older E400’s also. I would assume more single deckers are also on the cards as there seems to be a shortage - hence two Freebus Optare Versa’s being used on the 149 yesterday.

I do believe the B9s will potentially head to GNE, but at the same time can't see much use for them there now they took on the MX07s, the MX57s and a bunch of DOEs

They are going to GNE and EY apparently. Given the amount of money GNE have spent refurbing the 07/57’s cascaded from GNW it would be crazy to sell/scrap the better condition 58 reg B9’s thay don’t forget are Euro 6 compliant after conversion.

I can see potential of the older MMCs moving to Metroline as a sale.

I know the 64s moving to Stagecoach East Mids was cancelled after the company order for Hull took their place of being needed there. However, these are now likely to become the schools fleet. If this is true, there are still the 65s and 16s which could well go to Metroline.

Won’t happen. Stagecoach have the perfect opportunity to semi de-rail the final Tranche by not including any vehicle sales to the TFGM pool and I think that’s what they will do. There will be mass cascades around the country to various groups with the possibility of much older tired stuff being brought in in the lead up to the handover to Metroline.

TFGM have allegedly paid well over the odds for the Oxford B5’s and Scania’s so it’s the perfect opportunity for stagecoach to get top price for its older tired stock.

 

[gka472l]

I believe further e400 MMC’s and possibly more older E400’s also. I would assume more single deckers are also on the cards as there seems to be a shortage - hence two Freebus Optare Versa’s being used on the 149 yesterday.


They are going to GNE and EY apparently. Given the amount of money GNE have spent refurbing the 07/57’s cascaded from GNW it would be crazy to sell/scrap the better condition 58 reg B9’s thay don’t forget are Euro 6 compliant after conversion.


Won’t happen. Stagecoach have the perfect opportunity to semi de-rail the final Tranche by not including any vehicle sales to the TFGM pool and I think that’s what they will do. There will be mass cascades around the country to various groups with the possibility of much older tired stuff being brought in in the lead up to the handover to Metroline.

TFGM have allegedly paid well over the odds for the Oxford B5’s and Scania’s so it’s the perfect opportunity for stagecoach to get top price for its older tired stock.

Personal view is that I wouldn't be surprised that the 12*** hybrids all go into the pool, possibly also the 19*** E400's, however the E400MMC's will all remain with Stagecoach and be cascaded all over the place....in fact (can't disclose sources as it's on a private admin chat on a group I'm an admin on....), 6 '65 plate' E400MMC's were supposed to be leaving Manchester (Hyde Road) for Stagecoach South this weekend, although the mentioned examples still appear to be in service in Manchester....

HTH

 

[Class 466]

All the 17 plate Enviro 400MMCs will migrate to Queens Road later this year. Believe both the Oxford & BN61 B5LHs are being retained.

 

[mic]

All the 17 plate Enviro 400MMCs will migrate to Queens Road later this year. Believe both the Oxford & BN61 B5LHs are being retained.

That's good to hear. I've been on quite a few of the Hybrids at Oldham and I like them.

 

[Mollman]

Just a reminder that Stagecoach will have had to inform TfGM of which vehicles they are putting in the pool prior to the ITT going out, so Metroline will have known when it bid what the fleet position would be.

 

[Leedsbusman]

Won’t happen. Stagecoach have the perfect opportunity to semi de-rail the final Tranche by not including any vehicle sales to the TFGM pool and I think that’s what they will do. There will be mass cascades around the country to various groups with the possibility of much older tired stuff being brought in in the lead up to the handover to Metroline.

Except that was already agreed before the bidding started. Sorry to spoil the conspiracy theory!

 

[mayneway]

Except that was already agreed before the bidding started. Sorry to absily

Except that was already agreed before the bidding started. Sorry to spoil the conspiracy theory!

Strange because both Diamond and Go North west changed their minds on vehicles they were including and not including in the vehicle pool up too a few weeks before handover. I know for a fact the Evosettis were originally included to go to stagecoach but at the last minute were retained for schools.

Just a reminder that Stagecoach will have had to inform TfGM of which vehicles they are putting in the pool prior to the ITT going out, so Metroline will have known when it bid what the fleet position would be.

That’s if any vehicles ARE included. I’d bet money non are!

 

[Class 466]

I know for a fact the Evosettis were originally included to go to stagecoach but at the last minute were retained for schools.

Thank Goodness they didn’t. Horrible things

 

[mayneway]

Thank Goodness they didn’t. Horrible things

Some were brilliant some outright dangerous. They seemed to have an issue with acceleration and suddenly lose all power when pulling away or up a hill. We were told it was an adblue sensor issue but not too sure. The B5’s were not all that better either.