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TfGM Bus franchising

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ryan06

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Thanks for the update. The report of 33024 getting repainted will stop whoever it is from deleting it from the bus times website just because it’s been VOR (Hopefully)

VOR - vehicle off road


To confirm, Rotala will be selling the following vehicles to Go North West 24/09/23:

Optare Solo - 30100 (1)
Volvo B7RLE - 30928 (1)
E200's - 30962, 30971, 30975-77, 31407/8, 31411 & 31414/5 (10)
Citaros - 33010/1, 33013-19, 33021-31 & 33033 (21)
Streetdecks - 40700-13, 40720-24, 40727, 40733-60, 40762-804, 40809-17 & 40821 (101)
Total = 134
 
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WWH44L

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To confirm, Rotala will be selling the following vehicles to Go North West 24/09/23:

Optare Solo - 30100 (1)
Volvo B7RLE - 30928 (1)
E200's - 30962, 30971, 30975-77, 31407/8, 31411 & 31414/5 (10)
Citaros - 33010/1, 33013-19, 33021-31 & 33033 (21)
Streetdecks - 40700-13, 40720-24, 40727, 40733-60, 40762-804, 40809-17 & 40821 (101)
Total = 134
Thanks for that. Sorry what I meant was the extra vehicles that Go North West are currently bringing in for example the B9s from London etc which I’m presuming will go primarily to Wigan in September. Some of these have already been repainted and in service at the moment.

Also, not sure if the above list has changed as streetdecks 40822 is already in Bee livery with 40823 currently away for the same.
 

mic

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I wonder if First Manchester Oldham's E400s 33656 etc will be sold to Stagecoach next March, as Stagecoach has this kind in service already.
 
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Geeves

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Thanks for that. Sorry what I meant was the extra vehicles that Go North West are currently bringing in for example the B9s from London etc which I’m presuming will go primarily to Wigan in September. Some of these have already been repainted and in service at the moment.

Also, not sure if the above list has changed as streetdecks 40822 is already in Bee livery with 40823 currently away for the same.

What's the situation with the 200 buses that Go NW currently have at Queens Road? I am assuming that all these wont be transferring to Stagecoach?
 

kiewilk0970

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What's the situation with the 200 buses that Go NW currently have at Queens Road? I am assuming that all these wont be transferring to Stagecoach?
I Believe Diamond are keeping a handful of Streetdecks in Manchester for School an Service work when franchising starts

Edit - I quoted the wrong post sorry :)
 
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Leyland Bus

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Bolton updates for today include the return of Streetdecks 40767 and 40802 in yellow and lettered accordingly!
 

winston270twm

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Thanks for that. Sorry what I meant was the extra vehicles that Go North West are currently bringing in for example the B9s from London etc which I’m presuming will go primarily to Wigan in September. Some of these have already been repainted and in service at the moment.

Also, not sure if the above list has changed as streetdecks 40822 is already in Bee livery with 40823 currently away for the same.
The list of sales to Go North West I originally posted hasn't changed on the latest Rotala Group Offical Fleetlist, 40822 & 40823 were always being retained by Rotala (i.e. 25 newest Streetdecks), therefore, these could be seeing service with Diamond Bus North West on the small franchise wins from September along with 40728-732 which are getting full Bee Network refurbs.
 

johncrossley

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There is some more detail on plans when all buses are under franchising.


They have put together a few ideas of what could be possible. Not committed schemes, but may at least show the principles of what is likely to happen. This text suggests a greater role for connections in the future.

The Prestwich, Radcliffe, Whitefield and Unsworth areas of Bury district are served by lengthy routes which provide links into Manchester city centre and Bury, as well as local trips within these areas, but do not integrate well with Metrolink services. To address this, through our Network Planning Guidelines, the pattern of services would be reviewed to strengthen and simplify links from the residential areas to local amenities and the Metrolink stops in Whitefield and Prestwich, whilst also providing simplified radial bus links into Manchester city centre.

The Chadderton, Royton and Shaw areas of Oldham are served by a network of lengthy and complex services which provide links to Manchester city centre and can be subject to on-road performance problems. To address this, through our Network Planning Guidelines, the pattern of services would be reviewed and, where possible, shortened and made more frequent to ensure that passengers continue to be able to make key links whilst also improving the reliability of the routes.

An example of "trade-offs" is shown. Concentrating infrequent parallel routes into frequent routes with a longer walking time for some.

1690014642603.png

The London style "Hopper" fare is going to be introduced from January 2025.

Seek to maintain the £2 single, £5 daily and £21 weekly adult fare caps until at least March 2025, when the franchising process is complete.

Make Pay As You Go ticketing available to customers from January 2025, enabling people to simply ‘tap and go’ across both Bus and Metrolink, with a day or weekly cap.

Introduce a single ‘hopper’ fare from January 2025, allowing unlimited bus travel within a given period.

Make paying for travel in advance much simpler, ensuring customers can choose which product best suits their needs
 

WWH44L

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The list of sales to Go North West I originally posted hasn't changed on the latest Rotala Group Offical Fleetlist, 40822 & 40823 were always being retained by Rotala (i.e. 25 newest Streetdecks), therefore, these could be seeing service with Diamond Bus North West on the small franchise wins from September along with 40728-732 which are getting full Bee Network refurbs.
Makes sense , thanks for Winston.
 
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"The Prestwich, Radcliffe, Whitefield and Unsworth areas of Bury district are served by lengthy routes which provide links into Manchester city centre and Bury, as well as local trips within these areas, but do not integrate well with Metrolink services. To address this, through our Network Planning Guidelines, the pattern of services would be reviewed to strengthen and simplify links from the residential areas to local amenities and the Metrolink stops in Whitefield and Prestwich, whilst also providing simplified radial bus links into Manchester city centre."

This is much needed, as somebody who lives in Radcliffe and uses the buses daily to get into the city, the current services (especially the 98) are mediocre most of the time and are far too infrequent (only 2 buses an hour to the city - if we're lucky, a fair few just don't turn up). More buses in and around Radcliffe and Prestwich are much needed and would be great to see, as well as simplified routes into Manchester that don't take ages. Let's hope they follow through on this!
 

johncrossley

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"The Prestwich, Radcliffe, Whitefield and Unsworth areas of Bury district are served by lengthy routes which provide links into Manchester city centre and Bury, as well as local trips within these areas, but do not integrate well with Metrolink services. To address this, through our Network Planning Guidelines, the pattern of services would be reviewed to strengthen and simplify links from the residential areas to local amenities and the Metrolink stops in Whitefield and Prestwich, whilst also providing simplified radial bus links into Manchester city centre."

This is much needed, as somebody who lives in Radcliffe and uses the buses daily to get into the city, the current services (especially the 98) are mediocre most of the time and are far too infrequent (only 2 buses an hour to the city - if we're lucky, a fair few just don't turn up). More buses in and around Radcliffe and Prestwich are much needed and would be great to see, as well as simplified routes into Manchester that don't take ages. Let's hope they follow through on this!

I get the impression from that text that there will be improved short distance local buses but some places will lose their direct bus service to the city centre as the radial bus routes are "simplified". So people currently using the infrequent direct buses to the city centre will in future use an improved local bus to the nearest tram stop instead. The net effect should be more patronage overall across buses and trams whilst saving the cost of running wiggly long distance direct buses to Manchester city centre. After reading through a lot of the old posts, this is the sort of thing that @Bletchleyite and other franchising proponents on this thread have mentioned a lot.
 

WatcherZero

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I get the impression from that text that there will be improved short distance local buses but some places will lose their direct bus service to the city centre as the radial bus routes are "simplified". So people currently using the infrequent direct buses to the city centre will in future use an improved local bus to the nearest tram stop instead. The net effect should be more patronage overall across buses and trams whilst saving the cost of running wiggly long distance direct buses to Manchester city centre. After reading through a lot of the old posts, this is the sort of thing that @Bletchleyite and other franchising proponents on this thread have mentioned a lot.

Previously disclosed they wanted a mini hub system based on transport interchanges, you have the main Bus Stations as primary interchange points but you also pull other routes that pass nearby but at the moment dont interface with other public transport together at tram and rail stations creating mini hubs. E.g. whereas today a rail station might only be served by one bus route in the future it might be served by 3 or 4 enhancing connectivity. The report also says for example that they want to route the main Wigan-Bolton service via Middlebrook/Horwich which would probably be an express route with less frequent services continuing to go via Westhoughton, this would free many passengers from the Hindley gridlock while Wigan-Leigh routes would be consolidated to give a higher frequency.
 
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158756

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Previously disclosed they wanted a mini hub system based on transport interchanges, you have the main Bus Stations as primary interchange points but you also pull other routes that pass nearby but at the moment dont interface with other public transport together at tram and rail stations creating mini hubs. E.g. whereas today a rail station might only be served by one bus route in the future it might be served by 3 or 4 enhancing connectivity. The report also says for example that they want to route the main Wigan-Bolton service via Middlebrook/Horwich which would probably be an express route with less frequent services continuing to go via Westhoughton, this would free many passengers from the Hindley gridlock while Wigan-Leigh routes would be consolidated to give a higher frequency.

I'm not sure what will come of the stuff about Middlebrook. The only frequent service around there is the main service between Bolton and Horwich, so if the plan is to serve Middlebrook at a reasonable cost the main established passenger flow is going to have significantly extended journey times. If they divert the service from Westhoughton while still keeping a decent service on the current route that'd need a significant increase in PVR for a market that doesn't currently exist.

It seems obvious that Middlebrook should have a much better service, but unless it's going to fill buses on its own it's not so simple to achieve without throwing subsidy at it.
 

johncrossley

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The recent discussion does show that there is still considerable scope to rationalise and adjust bus routes by using integration with the rail/tram network, despite scepticism from certain commentators who insist that buses don't really compete with rail anyway.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The recent discussion does show that there is still considerable scope to rationalise and adjust bus routes by using integration with the rail/tram network, despite scepticism from certain commentators who insist that buses don't really compete with rail anyway.
A coded reference to me? Well thank you @johncrossley

In that light, can you please explain why the Oldham and Rochdale to Manchester bus services massively reduced when the Metrolink lines were opened? Or those along Eccles New Road?

Or indeed why they might there is still a residual, commercial market for those that still survive?
 

WatcherZero

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I'm not sure what will come of the stuff about Middlebrook. The only frequent service around there is the main service between Bolton and Horwich, so if the plan is to serve Middlebrook at a reasonable cost the main established passenger flow is going to have significantly extended journey times. If they divert the service from Westhoughton while still keeping a decent service on the current route that'd need a significant increase in PVR for a market that doesn't currently exist.

It seems obvious that Middlebrook should have a much better service, but unless it's going to fill buses on its own it's not so simple to achieve without throwing subsidy at it.

There are advantages, its the fastest route between Wigan and Bolton so there would be operational savings and presumably they would be trying to generate additional demand by better serving a large employment/retail/leisure destination while the demand for Westhoughton passengers would still exist on the original route so you are generating additional custom.

On the bus vs tram issue I remember one of the other aspirations was to have bus routes that mirrored tram corridors (of course they wouldnt be exact duplicates but divert to serve other communities but have calls near the stations) so to some degree you have your bus replacement built in so in times of service disruption they could add more capacity to the bus routes to deal with the diverted passengers rather than having to charter a dedicated bus replacement taking hours if not days.
 
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Donny85

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Interesting document but there’s a few things I’m questioning about what they say / believe.

Page 18 says the decline in bus use is a contributing factor to a decline in town centre shopping. This however is often reported to be due to a combination of e-commerce and out of town retail parks.

In the same document on page 25 they then talk about better connectivity to Middlebrook Retail Park, an out of town retail park.

Would better connectivity with Middlebrook increase bus usage significantly, or would it mainly transfer existing passengers with no access to private cars away from town centres because they could get to Middlebrook easier.

Are car owners going to choose to take a bus to a Middlebrook with its ample free (6 hour max) parking, even if they are more frequent.

Page 25 talks of replanning services between Wigan and Leigh. The 3 current routes (8, 9 and 10) all serve their own individual purpose for people along these routes and have been doing for many years (previously with different numbers). All operate between a 12 to 15 minute frequency weekday daytimes, and all serve very different routes along the way.

8 - Higher Ince, Hindley & West Leigh.
9 - Lower Ince & Platt Bridge,
10/10A - Bryn, Ashton, Golborne & Lowton.

How much greater frequency is actual needed above 12-15 minutes for those travelling end to end, and wouldn’t the needs of these people be served by simply better highlighting which is the faster route to take. How I’m reading this at the moment is possible route cuts with a PR spin put on it.
 

Citibus

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I wonder if the proper area route numbers will return?
8 - 593
9 - 658
10 - 600
10a -601
Buses magazine seems to suggests that the Bx and Rx routes around Bury and Rochdale will return to being numbered in the 4xx series as they move from Transdev to First
 

JetBlast

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Buses magazine seems to suggests that the Bx and Rx routes around Bury and Rochdale will return to being numbered in the 4xx series as they move from Transdev to First

It makes sense to bring everything into line and have a uniform system.
 

WatcherZero

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They actually talk about adding more distinction to the numbers, adding a letter to indicate express services like the existing X and to indicate those that interchange with the tram network (e.g. adding an M to the end of the route number)
 

domcoop7

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Interesting document but there’s a few things I’m questioning about what they say / believe.

How I’m reading this at the moment is possible route cuts with a PR spin put on it.
Yes, it's the usual PR drivel, but when you read through the guff I have to say I'm (marginally) pleasantly surprised - and I am a strong Franchise Sceptic!

There's nonsense, such as Donny85 highlighted, and others such as a 30% increase in patronage (whereas the actual audited projections for the Franchise Consultation show they expect a decline in ridership). They also talk of fares being affordable and reinvesting the surplus in other public transport - spoiler alert: there aint going to be no surplus!

Bizarrely, they have a page where they look at "examples from elsewhere" and show examples from deregulated buses they want to emulate. But at least they aren't being ideologically "everything the private sector does is bad". Indeed the document says that deregulation did bring some improvements and they also, tellingly, compare Greater Manchester Transport in the 1970s with West Midlands in the 1970s (when both were under PTE control) and acknowledge that West Midlands did better than GM.

They acknowledge that just tinkering around with bus routes and painting them a different colour isn't going to make an improvement, and aim to get more bus priority measures and bus lanes (which of course they could have done anyway, but hey ho).

They also say that route branding can be a good thing and highlight the X43 Witch Way and the Trans Lancs Express. I have to say that with them retiring the "Vantage" name that I expected route branding would be out of the window, but perhaps not after all.

Finally (a subject being discussed on the Liverpool City Region forum) they acknowledge that cross boundary links are important and will facilitate them (whereas Liverpool's plans seem to be that they only want Franchised services in their area and to hell with any outside links other than those they decide to pay for themselves).
 

Man of Kent

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I wonder if the proper area route numbers will return?
8 - 593
9 - 658
10 - 600
10a -601
Buses magazine seems to suggests that the Bx and Rx routes around Bury and Rochdale will return to being numbered in the 4xx series as they move from Transdev to First
The Wigan tender documents showed the current numbers, while the Queen's Road tender documents showed the 4xx numbers. Potentially either could change before introduction, but Wigan is now so close (under 70 days) it seems unlikely.

I'm not clear whether TfGM is now the registration authority in place of the Traffic Commissioner (TC) - many of the TC documents are not up to date, and Notices & Proceedings only shows Hertfordshire as having taken over registration powers.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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There are advantages, its the fastest route between Wigan and Bolton so there would be operational savings and presumably they would be trying to generate additional demand by better serving a large employment/retail/leisure destination while the demand for Westhoughton passengers would still exist on the original route so you are generating additional custom.

On the bus vs tram issue I remember one of the other aspirations was to have bus routes that mirrored tram corridors (of course they wouldnt be exact duplicates but divert to serve other communities but have calls near the stations) so to some degree you have your bus replacement built in so in times of service disruption they could add more capacity to the bus routes to deal with the diverted passengers rather than having to charter a dedicated bus replacement taking hours if not days.

Yes, it's the usual PR drivel, but when you read through the guff I have to say I'm (marginally) pleasantly surprised - and I am a strong Franchise Sceptic!

There's nonsense, such as Donny85 highlighted, and others such as a 30% increase in patronage (whereas the actual audited projections for the Franchise Consultation show they expect a decline in ridership). They also talk of fares being affordable and reinvesting the surplus in other public transport - spoiler alert: there aint going to be no surplus!

Bizarrely, they have a page where they look at "examples from elsewhere" and show examples from deregulated buses they want to emulate. But at least they aren't being ideologically "everything the private sector does is bad". Indeed the document says that deregulation did bring some improvements and they also, tellingly, compare Greater Manchester Transport in the 1970s with West Midlands in the 1970s (when both were under PTE control) and acknowledge that West Midlands did better than GM.

They acknowledge that just tinkering around with bus routes and painting them a different colour isn't going to make an improvement, and aim to get more bus priority measures and bus lanes (which of course they could have done anyway, but hey ho).

They also say that route branding can be a good thing and highlight the X43 Witch Way and the Trans Lancs Express. I have to say that with them retiring the "Vantage" name that I expected route branding would be out of the window, but perhaps not after all.

Finally (a subject being discussed on the Liverpool City Region forum) they acknowledge that cross boundary links are important and will facilitate them (whereas Liverpool's plans seem to be that they only want Franchised services in their area and to hell with any outside links other than those they decide to pay for themselves).

Two interesting posts, and my two penneth to add to them. The points that are made (as stated by @domcoop7) are indeed more optimistic than I'd expected. The approach to the cross boundary routes is much better than the Liverpool approach, and that was always one of my concerns. Things are not black and white, and you need a level of pragmatism rather than be bound by blind ideology. Therefore, a recognition that cross-boundary services have an important role and that passenger demands are dictated by traffic objectives and not an arbitrary line on a map is welcomed; the solution isn't perhaps perfect but at least it's more enlightened than the view taken further along the East Lancs.

Similarly, the view on branding. I'm not a person who gets priapic over the latest Ray Stenning creation, and that every route has to have some distinct identity (please see comments on First Kernow thread). So whilst not a fan of the slightly wishy-washy yellow, I get the potential benefit of some commonality of image. However, there is a place for some promotional innovation; the loss of Vantage is disappointing but the promotion of faster links or airport orientated services or whatever is something that there should be a place for (and better than the frankly amateurish route branding that TfL rolled out on some London routes).

However, the biggest concern I had, and still have, is the way in which the direct links may or may not survive. Again, this is about being pragmatic and not slavishly adhering to something ideological. If we can have better interchange from Altrincham locals or wherever onto Metrolink, that would be brilliant. What I don't want to see is alleged "duplication" being used as an excuse to simply funnel passengers onto the trams. For instance, take the 100 from Warrington to Trafford Centre. Onward connections via trams to Manchester city centre being easier is a benefit. However, not if that comes the expense of running onward to Eccles, Pendleton and Manchester. Yes, the tram heads to Manchester but the 100 fulfils a role to any number of other destinations such as the Salford Hospital, University etc. There has to be pragmatism above ideology.

Lastly, the main issue is traffic congestion. It chokes our cities and stops bus services running smoothly and reliably. That some arterial route like Cheetham Hill Road has no bus priority is almost unbelievable. Sorting out those issues is much more important than nice paint - I hope these aren't fine words by TfGM and hope to see genuine improvements in these areas.
 

WatcherZero

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The Wigan tender documents showed the current numbers, while the Queen's Road tender documents showed the 4xx numbers. Potentially either could change before introduction, but Wigan is now so close (under 70 days) it seems unlikely.

I'm not clear whether TfGM is now the registration authority in place of the Traffic Commissioner (TC) - many of the TC documents are not up to date, and Notices & Proceedings only shows Hertfordshire as having taken over registration powers.

It is for routes wholly inside the franchising area, for routes that cross the boundary you have will have to dual register with both TfGM and the existing Traffic Commissioner, however they are asking that you submit to them 30 days before submitting to the traffic commissioner to allow for consultation before the TC submission.
 

Goldfish62

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It is for routes wholly inside the franchising area, for routes that cross the boundary you have will have to dual register with both TfGM and the existing Traffic Commissioner, however they are asking that you submit to them 30 days before submitting to the traffic commissioner to allow for consultation before the TC submission.
Operators in England have to submit registrations to the relevant local authority(s) for pre-authorisation 28 days before submission to the TC anyway. Curious why it's 30 days for TfGM rather than standardising on 28 days.
 

Leedsbusman

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Operators in England have to submit registrations to the relevant local authority(s) for pre-authorisation 28 days before submission to the TC anyway. Curious why it's 30 days for TfGM rather than standardising on 28 days.
It’s not. TFGM require a permit 98 days before it starts. It will issue it at 70 days at which time the operator can submit its intention to register to the other authorities before registering on 42 days.

Bus services within franchised areas do not need registering.
 

Goldfish62

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It’s not. TFGM require a permit 98 days before it starts. It will issue it at 70 days at which time the operator can submit its intention to register to the other authorities before registering on 42 days.

Bus services within franchised areas do not need registering.
I wasn't talking about the section of route within GM and I don't believe @WatcherZero was either, although I'm happy to be corrected.
 

Goldfish62

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What were you talking about then when you asked ‘why it’s 30 days for TFGM’?
The section of a cross boundary route outside GM. What else? Given that TfGM have correctly highlighted the importance of cross boundary routes they'll want sufficient time to assess any knock-on impact to the section within GM.
 
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