TfGM Bus franchising

[andrewbowden]

This is my take: https://membranedesign.co.uk/transportforgreatermanchester

I think the ‘M’ logo is a very strong asset that is now going to waste. As a Wigan-er, the bee has no relevance to me or anyone I know that I’ve asked whatsoever outside of the actual city of Manchester so I’m not even sure why they’ve decided to start plastering it everywhere.

The bee has long been the symbol of the city of Manchester and mostly unknown outside it. But that very much changed after the Arena bombing where it overnight became a very well known symbol across the area. It became the symbol of solidarity with those teenagers who lost their lives. Stagecoach, for example, put a bee on the front of most of their fleet. Think some other operators did too.

The Stagecoach bees have mostly gone now, but it really raised the profile of the bee and the Bee Network was first announced when the bee was probably at it's most well known point.

Is the bee the best symbol they could use? Me, I would have loved them to have brought back the original Mblem and to have painted all the buses orange again. But I suspect in the long term the bee will be a stronger brand. Time will tell.

 

[darloscott]

Not directly to do with franchising per-se, but Traffords 2023 school routes have thrown up some interesting operators. Unsure if these are as a result of the Little Gem fallout, or operators from the North West of the conurbation taking on work after losing school work in the first franchising tranche.

Services operated by amongst others
OLY - Olympia?
ASH - Ashcrofts?
ATG - Atlantic travel?
SWA - Swans?
GMS - ?? - not Stagecoach Manchester, they are listed as SM

Example listed

https://assets.ctfassets.net/nv7y93idf4jq/WkB4ZHnsTmC9WZpSan3dN/5424812bf3b444da02d6b8fff9154b63/Sale_Grammar_-_Schools_bus_timetables_-_From_September_2023.pdf

Edit - ATG could be Arriva, i did see a route learning vehicle not on a core route today. But ATG isnt the abbreviation previously used by them?

Looking at Bustimes and going to the operators pages themselves the routes appear to be being registered…
ASH is Ashcroft’s
ATG is Atlantic Travel
BEV is Belle Vue
OLY is Olympia Travel

GMS basing it on the 783 am is registered to Little Gem

 

[Donny85]

As a Wigan-er, the bee has no relevance to me or anyone I know that I’ve asked whatsoever outside of the actual city of Manchester so I’m not even sure why they’ve decided to start plastering it everywhere.

Totally agree with you. A lot of people in Wigan still use Lancashire (rather than Greater Manchester) on their address.

The bee is historically the symbol of the City of Manchester and not Greater Manchester.

My thoughts (and others) are it’s Andrew Burnham and Co’s way of saying to all other towns in GM, “you are part of the City of Manchester”.

The bee has long been the symbol of the city of Manchester and mostly unknown outside it. But that very much changed after the Arena bombing where it overnight became a very well known symbol across the area.

A symbol of solidarity with the city of Manchester yes, never however seen as a symbol of Greater Manchester.

I have to admit that the only other name I can think of off the top of my head would be NetworkGM, with a logo similar to the old BR Network North West, but doesn’t have the same ring to it though.

I was dubious about the all yellow buses when first announced but now that I’m seeing more of them they have grown on me so maybe the name will.

 

[GusB]

Whether or not you think the bee logo is appropriate, it's all getting a bit off-topic. If anyone feels strongly enough to discuss it further, feel free to start a separate thread. Any further posts on the subject will be removed.

 

[Leyland Bus]

Diamond Bus North West news:

The first of the acquired Wright Streetlites has arrived.
SM13 NBK is now at Bolton but painted two tone blue with Diamond names and motifs. These will cover for the new E200s currently being built before dispersal around the group.

A photo of said vehicle is attached.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Just tried to see if I could find the timetables for next academic year's bus services and they don't seem to be on the TfGM website or around in any form I can find, I have a feeling last year they were available by this point, and I can't find the list from Diamond that was copied here of a few school services.
I wish they'd've just said what companies are running all the services of the first set of services to be put into bee network, they surely now by now and school services start in less than a month with all services taken over in a month and a bit.

 

[Alexbus12]

Just tried to see if I could find the timetables for next academic year's bus services and they don't seem to be on the TfGM website or around in any form I can find, I have a feeling last year they were available by this point, and I can't find the list from Diamond that was copied here of a few school services.
I wish they'd've just said what companies are running all the services of the first set of services to be put into bee network, they surely now by now and school services start in less than a month with all services taken over in a month and a bit.

Tfgm incompetence. Most recently they’ve been failing to update changes to timetables of tendered buses services until the night before the change happens.. No doubt this will just get worse now they’re in charge of the full network.

 

[GusB]

Good morning, everyone.

It was suggested a while back that posts referring to repaints into the Bee Network livery, transfers etc. should be in a separate thread. This has now been implemented, with posts containing information about various vehicle repaints being copied into a new thread.

As a result of the posts being copied, rather than moved, there will be some duplication. There may also be some break in continuity; this is unavoidable, unfortunately.

From now on, any updates pertaining to new vehicles, transfers or repaints concerning the Greater Manchester fleet should be posted here:

TfGM Bee Network - fleet updates (repaints etc.)

For those who maybe interested, 40764 is the latest repaint into Bee Network yellow at BN depot, with 40796 the next one in. Repaints are also starting at outside contractors from this week too.

www.railforums.co.uk

This thread will remain open for people to discuss any new franchise awards, etc.

 

[WatcherZero]

Just tried to see if I could find the timetables for next academic year's bus services and they don't seem to be on the TfGM website or around in any form I can find, I have a feeling last year they were available by this point, and I can't find the list from Diamond that was copied here of a few school services.
I wish they'd've just said what companies are running all the services of the first set of services to be put into bee network, they surely now by now and school services start in less than a month with all services taken over in a month and a bit.

We are only two weeks into the summer holiday, the changes usually come out in the 3rd or 4th week of August, its a bit early yet.

 

[M60lad]

If your talking about information for TfGMs School Services then all School Services are now available at the following website:

Travelling to school

Find out more about travelling to schools in Greater Manchester

tfgm.com

You just have to search under the relevant School, I can't seem to find a way of finding the full School Service leaflet online anymore

 

[Leedsbusman]

If your talking about information for TfGMs School Services then all School Services are now available at the following website:

Travelling to school

Find out more about travelling to schools in Greater Manchester

tfgm.com

You just have to search under the relevant School, I can't seem to find a way of finding the full School Service leaflet online anymore

Many of which still appear to be Sept 2022!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

If your talking about information for TfGMs School Services then all School Services are now available at the following website:

Travelling to school

Find out more about travelling to schools in Greater Manchester

tfgm.com

You just have to search under the relevant School, I can't seem to find a way of finding the full School Service leaflet online anymore

That is one of the places I checked and the schools that I checked all had their 2022-2023 timetables there.

 

[danielhogg2005]

I have no idea where to find the right forum to type this because I'm not used to Manchester and the forums for TfGM but I hope someone can direct me to the right thread for this question.

With the Bee Network changing Buses would it make sense to renumber buses so that we don't have 3 Services that are the same number (e.g. 3 services all different routes but the same number), I think they should renumber the routes.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I have no idea where to find the right forum to type this because I'm not used to Manchester and the forums for TfGM but I hope someone can direct me to the right thread for this question.

With the Bee Network changing Buses would it make sense to renumber buses so that we don't have 3 Services that are the same number (e.g. 3 services all different routes but the same number), I think they should renumber the routes.

I have a feeling that is something that may very well happen once all the services are Bee Network.
Their first priority is getting the services under their control and the changes will happen once that is the case.
There are indeed multiple services across GM that use the same numbers, such as the Free Bus routes 1 and 2 and Wigan's 1 and 2.

 

[Citibus]

Leigh is served by two 34 routes.
Arriva 34 Leigh - St Helens will remain that number, as its not part of Bee Network, whereas the Go Ahead 34 Byrn/Leigh Manchester will become 35.

 

[Leedsbusman]

I have a feeling that is something that may very well happen once all the services are Bee Network.
Their first priority is getting the services under their control and the changes will happen once that is the case.
There are indeed multiple services across GM that use the same numbers, such as the Free Bus routes 1 and 2 and Wigan's 1 and 2.

Yes I bet people are always getting on the 1 at Piccadilly and wondering why it doesn’t go to Highfield Green.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Yes I bet people are always getting on the 1 at Piccadilly and wondering why it doesn’t go to Highfield Green.

I was thinking forwards to one day a big timetable page people would search by number, and having each number unique within a system would be a desirable fact since the number is the thing that separates 1 service from another.
When a display fails often the only thing left displaying (thanks to a piece of paper) is the route number.

 

[Alexbus12]

Anyone any idea how the plans for new routes will work. Burnham and co “promised” that some routes which have been withdrawn would be reinstated once franchising has begun. Will some of these small routes be put out on their own tender or just added onto a respective franchise with the existing operator given the necessary funding etc?

 

[Bungle965]

Anyone any idea how the plans for new routes will work. Burnham and co “promised” that some routes which have been withdrawn would be reinstated once franchising has begun. Will some of these small routes be put out on their own tender or just added onto a respective franchise with the existing operator given the necessary funding etc?

We didn’t need the Bee Network for this to happen in Rochdale for instance, Transdev with TfGM assistance/funding brought back some local routes which were killed off more than 5 years ago and introduced new tendered routes to local areas of employment.

 

[johncrossley]

We didn’t need the Bee Network for this to happen in Rochdale for instance, Transdev with TfGM assistance/funding brought back some local routes which were killed off more than 5 years ago and introduced new tendered routes to local areas of employment.

The problem was that you have to work around the commercial network without abstracting a significant amount of passengers. So you end up with lots of wiggly routes that nobody wants to use other than pensioners. They can cut the cost of improving services in deficient areas by rationalising existing services. There was an example earlier on in the thread of a recent TfGM document showing how the network might be altered in the future.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

The problem was that you have to work around the commercial network without abstracting a significant amount of passengers.

Why, surely under Bee Network all the money comes out and goes into the same pot?

So you end up with lots of wiggly routes that nobody wants to use other than pensioners.

And Children, and people with lowered mobility, and schoolkids, people who don't want to walk, 16-18 year olds with their Our Pass and way more.
Not just pensioners want the low effort of local busses, although they are certainly the majority on plenty of local routes.

 

[johncrossley]

Why, surely under Bee Network all the money comes out and goes into the same pot?

The point is you can't generally change the commercial network without agreement from the operators. So you generally have to create a whole new tendered route, which is expensive.

And Children, and people with lowered mobility, and schoolkids, people who don't want to walk, 16-18 year olds with their Our Pass and way more.
Not just pensioners want the low effort of local busses, although they are certainly the majority on plenty of local routes.

Wiggly tendered routes are too indirect to be much use for most full fare paying passengers. Under Bee there is an opportunity to redraw routes to be more direct or to provide more useful connections.

 

[WibbleWobble]

I was thinking forwards to one day a big timetable page people would search by number, and having each number unique within a system would be a desirable fact since the number is the thing that separates 1 service from another.
When a display fails often the only thing left displaying (thanks to a piece of paper) is the route number.

I doubt that will ever happen as cross-boundary services outside the scope of franchising most likely won't be renumbered - routes like the Blackburn 1 and Warrington 19. Having one number within a region only doesn't even happen in Greater London for that reason.

The only one I can see happening is the 34 as was alluded to above (is there a source for that?).

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I doubt that will ever happen as cross-boundary services outside the scope of franchising most likely won't be renumbered - routes like the Blackburn 1 and Warrington 19. Having one number within a region only doesn't even happen in Greater London for that reason.

Should be easy enough to just ignore the cross-boundary services, they'll be clearly not part of Bee Network with the non-yellow busses.
The 34 problem is certainly something that I've noticed a lot, but not seen people confused by.

 

[johncrossley]

The only one I can see happening is the 34 as was alluded to above (is there a source for that?).

There is this Facebook post. It is a public group and should be viewable without a Facebook account. Unfortunately the list of routes shown is a picture and so cannot be quoted easily.

Facebook

www.facebook.com

I’m going to explain the major and minor changes
Firstly, due to confusion between the 34s in Leigh, the Bryn to Manchester service is becoming route 35.
Secondly, Go North West are getting
-362 Chorley via Coppull
-613 New Springs via Whelley
-630 platt bridge via Ince
-635,640,641 to Wrightington via Shevvy (635, 641) or Worthington (640)
-639 Worsley Hall

Also

Facebook

www.facebook.com

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Unfortunately the list of routes shown is a picture and so cannot be quoted easily.

Then I'll translate it myself, I find being able to search for text very valuable.

Wigan Large Franchise (Go North West)
Public Services
1 Wigan - Highfield Grange (Clockwise Loop)
2 Wigan - Highfield Grange (Anti-clockwise Loop)
3 Wigan - Kitt Green (Clockwise Loop)
4 Wigan - Kitt Green (Anti-clockwise Loop)
5 Wigan - Beech Hill (Clockwise Loop)
6 Wigan - Beech Hill (Anti-clockwise Loop)
7 Wigan - Bolton (Via Hindley)
8 Wigan - Leigh (Via Hindley)
9 Wigan - Leigh - Higher Folds (Via Bickershaw)
10 Wigan - Leigh (Via Golborne)
10a Wigan - Leigh (Via Golborne)
35 Manchester - Worsley - Leigh - Bryn (Ex-34)
362 Wigan - Chorley
613 Wigan - New Springs
630 Wigan - Abram/Platt Bridge
635 Wigan - Appley Bridge / Wrightington Hospital
639 Wigan - Worsley Hall
640 Wigan - Shevington
641 Wigan - Standish

College and School Routes
688 Winstanley College - Wigan
669 St John Rigby College - Winstanley College - Wigan
947 Hindley - St John Fisher RC High School
958 Pemberton - Shevington High School
972 Standish Boar's Head - St Peter's RC High School (Via Rectory Lane and School Lane)
973 Standish Boar's Head - St Peter's RC High School (Via Wigan Road and Pepper Lane)

Bolton Large Franchise
Public Services
8 Manchester (Shudehill) - Bolton
10 Manchester (Shudehill) - Brockhouse
20 Bolton - Trafford Centre (Slow)
21 Agecroft - Trafford Centre
22 Bolton - Trafford Centre (Slightly faster)
36/37 Manchester - Bolton (37 is more direct and faster by about 10 mins)
163 Manchester (Piccadilly Gardens) - Bury
471 Rochdale - Bolton
472 Bury - Ramsbottom (Anti-clockwise Loop)
474 Bury - Ramsbottom (Clockwise Loop)
501 Johnson Fold - Bolton - Farnworth
520 Bolton - Westhoughton
524 Bury - Bolton
534 Bolton - Oldhams Estate
561 Bolton - Withins (Clockwise Loop)
562 Bolton - Withins (Anti-clockwise Loop)
571 Bolton - Great Lever (Clockwise Loop)
572 Bolton - Great Lever (Anti-clockwise Loop)
575 Bolton - Wigan (via Horwich)
576 Bolton - Horwich Old Lord's Estate
582 Bolton - Leigh
V1 Leigh - Manchester (Royal Infirmary)
V2 Atherton - Manchester (Royal Infirmary)
V4 (not sure if this is a closed service or not) East Lancs Rd - Manchester (?)
X22 Bolton - Trafford Centre (Fast)
X39 Farnworth - Manchester

College and School Routes
904 Horwich - Canon Slade High School
906 Westhoughton - Canon Slade High School
912 Heaton - Rivington & Blackrod High School
913 Bolton - Rivington & Blackrod High School
914 Middlebrook - Rivington & Blackrod High School
930 University of Bolton - St Joseph's High School
931 Daubhill - St Joseph's High School
932 Hindley - St Joseph's High School
933 Blackrod - St Joseph's High School
942 Wingates - St James C of E High School

 

[Deerfold]

I doubt that will ever happen as cross-boundary services outside the scope of franchising most likely won't be renumbered - routes like the Blackburn 1 and Warrington 19. Having one number within a region only doesn't even happen in Greater London for that reason.

The only one I can see happening is the 34 as was alluded to above (is there a source for that?).

Within London there's no duplication of TfL tendered services, at least.

In the late 80s West Yorkshire seemed to manage to have no duplicated services that I'm aware of - there was even a gap in the two digit Leeds area services due to the 8n services around the South Emsall area. They largely managed to have numbers that gave some indication of what area they ran in or what sort of special service they were.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The problem was that you have to work around the commercial network without abstracting a significant amount of passengers. So you end up with lots of wiggly routes that nobody wants to use other than pensioners. They can cut the cost of improving services in deficient areas by rationalising existing services. There was an example earlier on in the thread of a recent TfGM document showing how the network might be altered in the future.

That's not true. The reason why you get all these wiggly routes is that local authorities have limited resources so try to do much with what little they have, and because there are often competing considerations, not least political.

I was thinking forwards to one day a big timetable page people would search by number, and having each number unique within a system would be a desirable fact since the number is the thing that separates 1 service from another.
When a display fails often the only thing left displaying (thanks to a piece of paper) is the route number.

There are two enthusiast-based obsessions on bus numbering...

• That anything with an X prefix MUST relate to an express (and the more express the better), and
• That you can't have anything in a 50 mile radius that may have a similar number and so require some huge 3 digit numbering system with a different series for each individual town

Of course, prior to the formation of SELNEC, individual municipals did maintain numbering systems and Wigan's services were single or double digits, duplicating those operated by Manchester Corporation.

The move to three digit numbers was, incidentally, more driven by the early computer systems that operators used in the late 60s more than anything else. The Stagecoach renumbering was unwarranted; to change it back is equally daft.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

There are two enthusiast-based obsessions on bus numbering...

• That anything with an X prefix MUST relate to an express (and the more express the better), and
• That you can't have anything in a 50 mile radius that may have a similar number and so require some huge 3 digit numbering system with a different series for each individual town

Sounds reasonable to me.
Why would you use an X for something that's not an express?
There's 25 other letters.
with 3 digits you have 999 numbers + (99*26 for 1/2 digits and a letter) = 3,573 combinations at most.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Sounds reasonable to me.
Why would you use an X for something that's not an express?
There's 25 other letters.
with 3 digits you have 999 numbers + (99*26 for 1/2 digits and a letter) = 3,573 combinations at most.

X is used for cross country by some operators

Working on that basis, what we really need is a four or five digit, nationwide scheme so that no number is ever duplicated, anywhere, for fear that someone, somewhere, could be confused.

I feel sorry for all those people in West Yorkshire who had to struggle by for 30+ years with separate, duplicated schemes in Halifax, Bradford, Leeds and Huddersfield... let alone those in Todmorden who didn't even have numbers