TfGM Bus franchising

[pokemonsuper9]

Where will Stagecoach run the schools contracts from that they have picked up as part of this first tranche of franchising ? Presumably they have received existing TfGM Versas to run them ?

Plenty of the school busses they've been running have just been using their usual fleet, plenty of school busses wouldn't work with just a Versa they need double deckers.

 

[Tim33160]

Where will Stagecoach run the schools contracts from that they have picked up as part of this first tranche of franchising ? Presumably they have received existing TfGM Versas to run them ?

Stagecoach have opened a depot at Little Hulton for the Schools services in Tranche 1 of GM franchising
Stagecoach Little Hulton
Unit 36 Ravenscraig Road Bolton M38 9PU

Bee Network details on Bustimes for routes and vehicles

· Bee Network Vision Bus Schools

· Bee Network Stagecoach Schools (Little Hulton)

· Bee Network Go North West (Bolton, Wigan and Heywood)

· Bee Network Diamond Bus NW (Eccles and Bolton)

 

[Howardh]

My area, Bolton, is one of the first areas to be changed into this network, and looking at the mew timetables, much better! More 575's, added 576, those end much later meaning I can travel back from town after midnight and the last train back from Manchester. Negatively the 573 has some bizarre timings, probably due to extra allowances when the schools turf out eg Bolton School. And Lostock estate and station still isn't covered by a bus route.

But overall, happy!

 

[Llandudno]

My area, Bolton, is one of the first areas to be changed into this network, and looking at the mew timetables, much better! More 575's, added 576, those end much later meaning I can travel back from town after midnight and the last train back from Manchester. Negatively the 573 has some bizarre timings, probably due to extra allowances when the schools turf out eg Bolton School. And Lostock estate and station still isn't covered by a bus route.

But overall, happy!

Excellent, looking forward to your reports of the reliability of these late night services.

Let’s hope they have the drivers to operate them unlike Northern!

 

[Trackman]

Let’s hope they have the drivers to operate them unlike Northern!

This is my worry, lack of drivers.
Last time I visited my mate text to say 'don't bother with the bus (36) and get a taxi'. The Diamond NW bus tracker was useless.

 

[Howardh]

Excellent, looking forward to your reports of the reliability of these late night services.

Let’s hope they have the drivers to operate them unlike Northern!

The not-quite-as-late last ones have been the most reliable lately!

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I've noticed the maps available at https://tfgm.com/public-transport/network-maps-region now are updated for Bee Network, with the new route numbers being used.

Attached image shows the 10, 10a, 34 and 35 being listed together, previously, both the 34 and 35 were numbered 34.

 

[Josie]

Apparently, the clipper card is making a return aswell..! Seemingly for trams at the moment, I wonder if it will be extended to use on the buses too?
Note: the picture attached shows a new card called "Clipper" so a "Clipper card" gets you 10 tram trips for the price of 9, like the original Clippercard did on the buses.

The Clipper ticket* has been back in business for a few years now I think, it's not a new Bee product. It's only for trams; I haven't seen anything suggesting it will be introduced on buses.

*N.B. unlike the old Clippercards, Clipper is a ticket product that can be bought and loaded to a Get Me There/Bee Card, not a physical card itself.

 

[WibbleWobble]

My area, Bolton, is one of the first areas to be changed into this network, and looking at the mew timetables, much better! More 575's, added 576, those end much later meaning I can travel back from town after midnight and the last train back from Manchester. Negatively the 573 has some bizarre timings, probably due to extra allowances when the schools turf out eg Bolton School. And Lostock estate and station still isn't covered by a bus route.

But overall, happy!

The 520 runs close to Lostock Station, stopping at the end of Junction Road West. That's probably realistically the closest you'd get because of the 3 tonne weight / 6 feet 6 inches width limits on the railway bridge.

The 573/574 don't have enough time to send a bus to loop around Regent Road as the running time is already 55 minutes, so another bus would have to be put into the cycle. Diverting the 575/576 would probably be seen as a no-no. I can't see it being good bus territory as the estate is full of large houses with double garages, being a wealthy part of Bolton.

 

[JetBlast]

This is my worry, lack of drivers.

According the staff at GNW they are getting drivers in from otherh parts of the country.

 

[markymark2000]

According the staff at GNW they are getting drivers in from otherh parts of the country.

And a shed load of agency drivers who are being welcomed in with very nice pay packets.

Manley Summers offering £15ph PAYE or £19.50 umbrella plus £180 accomodation allowance.

Another advert offering £21ph umbrella plus accomodation or £185 bonus per week.

Very tasty offers for people who aren't afraid to move away from home.

 

[JetBlast]

Why is there a shortage of drivers? Have some left? Have they increased services? Maybe both?

Thanks

 

[markymark2000]

Why is there a shortage of drivers? Have some left? Have they increased services? Maybe both?

Thanks

Both. Some drivers will have retired, some will have stayed with Stagecoach but moved to other depots. Some will have stayed with Diamond but moved to Eccles for their work.
Vision, their depot isn't being take over but they will lose about 20 buses worth of service work. Those drivers have now got to find jobs elsewhere. Some may move to GoAhead but others won't.

Combine this with taking on some work that is currently ran by outside the area firms like Leigh circulars currently ran by Warrington's Own Buses and Hattons and Hattons 613 in Wigan. Some enhancements going on in Bolton to put the buses back to the frequency they originally were before Diamond cut them due to low resources.
Whenever some kind of big change like this happens, people don't like change or don't want to move to the new company taking over in their area, these people may retire, find another job outside of the industry, work at another operator outside of the area etc etc.


Even if every single driver from First Bolton, Arriva Bolton, Diamond Bolton and Vision Blackwood all moved to GoAhead Bolton and all Stagecoach drivers in Wigan stayed put, you would still be short on drivers because of the enhancements.

 

[JetBlast]

Both. Some drivers will have retired, some will have stayed with Stagecoach but moved to other depots. Some will have stayed with Diamond but moved to Eccles for their work.
Vision, their depot isn't being take over but they will lose about 20 buses worth of service work. Those drivers have now got to find jobs elsewhere. Some may move to GoAhead but others won't.

Combine this with taking on some work that is currently ran by outside the area firms like Leigh circulars currently ran by Warrington's Own Buses and Hattons and Hattons 613 in Wigan. Some enhancements going on in Bolton to put the buses back to the frequency they originally were before Diamond cut them due to low resources.
Whenever some kind of big change like this happens, people don't like change or don't want to move to the new company taking over in their area, these people may retire, find another job outside of the industry, work at another operator outside of the area etc etc.


Even if every single driver from First Bolton, Arriva Bolton, Diamond Bolton and Vision Blackwood all moved to GoAhead Bolton and all Stagecoach drivers in Wigan stayed put, you would still be short on drivers because of the enhancements.

Makes sense! Thanks for the detailed reply.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Whenever some kind of big change like this happens, people don't like change or don't want to move to the new company taking over in their area, these people may retire, find another job outside of the industry, work at another operator outside of the area etc etc.

When the implications of what may occur with regards to drivers having to change employers because of the franchising implications of the Bee Network, would this particular aspect been one that the union would have held discussions with TfGM about in the early days of the decision making?

 

[Goldfish62]

And a shed load of agency drivers who are being welcomed in with very nice pay packets.

Manley Summers offering £15ph PAYE or £19.50 umbrella plus £180 accomodation allowance.

Another advert offering £21ph umbrella plus accomodation or £185 bonus per week.

Very tasty offers for people who aren't afraid to move away from home.

GoAhead have brought in their own drivers from London and Cornwall at least, plus as you say inevitably relying on short-term agency.

As well as being away from home there's the accommodation element. IntSol for example put you in a shared house with other drivers who you may not get on with. I also see they're stating it's a 50 hour week, min 10 hour days.

The difference between PAYE and umbrella rates is because under the latter you're responsible for the agency fee, plus employer's NI and pension contributions. That Manley Summers rate isn't particularly attractive especially given that accommodation isn't supplied.

 

[323235]

So the Bee Network app for buses is now live and as I noticed in an article the other day the Bee Network tickets are in association with Greater Manchester Travelcards Ltd so a Bee Network bus ticket is valid across the whole of Greater Manchester, not just the franchised parts + the special boundary areas.

System one have also put a note on their website saying that their tickets are valid on the Bee Network.

 

[Howardh]

The 520 runs close to Lostock Station, stopping at the end of Junction Road West. That's probably realistically the closest you'd get because of the 3 tonne weight / 6 feet 6 inches width limits on the railway bridge.

The 573/574 don't have enough time to send a bus to loop around Regent Road as the running time is already 55 minutes, so another bus would have to be put into the cycle. Diverting the 575/576 would probably be seen as a no-no. I can't see it being good bus territory as the estate is full of large houses with double garages, being a wealthy part of Bolton.

I thought a solution would be the 576 routed via Lostock. Clearly buses can't use the bridge so that's annoying! The area might be "wealthy" but if the way forward is to get people out of their cars then a slight diversion might mean some would use the bus?

Although Middlebrook (Horwich Parkway) is equally badly served, the 574 used to terminus around that station, and neither that nor Blackrod are central to Horwich.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I thought a solution would be the 576 routed via Lostock. Clearly buses can't use the bridge so that's annoying! The area might be "wealthy" but if the way forward is to get people out of their cars.

I know a number of 3-car/4 bed detached homes people in the Lostock area who would give "curious looks" to anyone making that suggestion of "getting them out of their cars".

 

[Goldfish62]

I know a number of 3-car/4 bed detached homes people in the Lostock area who would give "curious looks" to anyone making that suggestion of "getting them out of their cars".

There will always be those who are genuinely car-dependent, as well as those who seem to care more about their car than anything else in life. However, it only requires a small modal shift to make a big difference.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There will always be those who are genuinely car-dependent, as well as those who seem to care more about their car than anything else in life. However, it only requires a small modal shift to make a big difference.

If a person stood for election as councillor in the Lostock area and issued election leaflets that highlighted the modal shift you refer to above in them, what percentage of the usual multi-car owners (the type that Liverpool Victoria glorify in their car insurance TV adverts) would have Damascene conversion to the delights of the Bee Network and what percentage would immediately throw such literature in the waste bin.

Before you know it, other people will be expressing opinions on giving up bus and train travel and taking the equine option that has the added benefit of giving something to spread around the rose bushes..

 

[Goldfish62]

If a person stood for election as councillor in the Lostock area and issued election leaflets that highlighted the modal shift you refer to above in them, what percentage of the usual multi-car owners (the type that Liverpool Victoria glorify in their car insurance TV adverts) would have Damascene conversion to the delights of the Bee Network and what percentage would immediately throw such literature in the waste bin.

Before you know it, other people will be expressing opinions on giving up bus and train travel and taking the equine option that has the added benefit of giving something to spread around the rose bushes..

What on earth are you on about?

No, don't bother to answer.

 

[M803UYA]

Both. Some drivers will have retired, some will have stayed with Stagecoach but moved to other depots. Some will have stayed with Diamond but moved to Eccles for their work.
Vision, their depot isn't being take over but they will lose about 20 buses worth of service work. Those drivers have now got to find jobs elsewhere. Some may move to GoAhead but others won't.

The other thing worth considering is drivers who work for a smaller operator tend to do so by choice. They'll have left a larger operator (by dismissal or resignation) and prefer the more informal setup in a small operation. They won't willingly return to a big firm going off their experiences. Go North West aren't the best for looking after their staff as the strike proved.

So when the likes of Vision lose bus routes, they don't necessarily lose the drivers.

 

[johncrossley]

There is of course in depth coverage in the local media. Burnham reaffirmed the desire to rebalance the service away from major corridors.

I got up at 3.30am to travel on the first Bee Network bus, this is what happened

It's an historic day for bus travel in Greater Manchester as the 'game changing' Bee Network goes live

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

"People will know that there are routes going into the city centre when there's a bus every minute or two, when there are some areas with barely any service at all. We've got to take that capacity and use it better across all of Greater Manchester.

"It will be a couple of years but people will begin to see these changes [now we've got control]."

Giving an example of other barmy options that the car-hating brigade are so fond of spouting in their blinkered vision of how they see Britain's future, which they would not dare to express to the workers in the car factories who would be a tad worried about losing their jobs when the car makers relocate away from Britain.

It is not an "all or nothing" situation. Cars are here to stay, but the idea is to make buses more attractive so that *some* people switch *some* of their journeys to buses where it might be more convenient to do so.

In some of the richest parts of Europe where car ownership is much higher than in Greater Manchester, it is normal for people to use local public transport from time to time because the service is of very high standard.

 

[Goldfish62]

In some of the richest parts of Europe where car ownership is much higher than in Greater Manchester, it is normal for people to use local public transport from time to time because the service is of very high standard.

The closest to this in this country is London.

There's of course the often quoted fact that the majority of London households do not have access to a car. But also in the context of your comment the demographics and social class of bus users in London match almost the exactly the same proportions in the London population.

 

[Trackman]

And a shed load of agency drivers who are being welcomed in with very nice pay packets.

Manley Summers offering £15ph PAYE or £19.50 umbrella plus £180 accomodation allowance.

Another advert offering £21ph umbrella plus accomodation or £185 bonus per week.

Very tasty offers for people who aren't afraid to move away from home.

This explains something:
My mate up north told me he saw an out of service bus pass his house full of drivers and they were making notes.

He also reports the Bee Network bus tracker actually works and is accurate.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

If a person stood for election as councillor in the Lostock area and issued election leaflets that highlighted the modal shift you refer to above in them, what percentage of the usual multi-car owners (the type that Liverpool Victoria glorify in their car insurance TV adverts) would have Damascene conversion to the delights of the Bee Network and what percentage would immediately throw such literature in the waste bin.

I would disagree with you, to an extent. As we've seen in many more affluent places, such as Reading, Brighton etc, buses can be shown to be fundamental in achieving modal shift. The ways in which that is achieved are complex. Simply putting on more buses and having through ticketing simply isn't going to get people to leave their cars behind nor to avoid buying a car in future.

The single most important aspect is the ability to have a reliable network. I do wish the operators involved (esp Go Ahead) luck in getting and keeping the required numbers of staff. In fact, I genuinely do wish the best for TfGM and the Bee Network.

However, plans don't really tackle the main issues in terms of reliability. As we've seen in London, such is the focus on penalising operators that journey times are pedestrian as there is so much margin built into running times. That makes bus services unattractively slow. Intrinsically linked to that (and the successes elsewhere) is good bus priority. This is something that GM lacks in the most part, and the plans are limited in what they propose. Traffic congestion will not differentiate in a slow moving bus on the basis of its ownership or planning authority.

Now, do you think that politicians will be queuing up to take away road capacity from "hard working drivers affected by the cost of living crisis"? I think not and the latest moves from Sunak (emboldened or prompted by the ULEZ/Uxbridge outcome) seem to suggest that he sees more votes in attacking anything that adversely impacts car drivers.

There is of course in depth coverage in the local media. Burnham reaffirmed the desire to rebalance the service away from major corridors.

That's just a politician not really understanding how major traffic flows work. Taking capacity from major corridors and using those resources to prop up a raft of nice to haves is a recipe for disaster.

As an analogy, if your head is in the freezer, and your feet are in the fire, then on average you're fit and well. Much more sensible would be to grow patronage on those key corridors where people wish to travel

It is not an "all or nothing" situation. Cars are here to stay, but the idea is to make buses more attractive so that *some* people switch *some* of their journeys to buses where it might be more convenient to do so.

In some of the richest parts of Europe where car ownership is much higher than in Greater Manchester, it is normal for people to use local public transport from time to time because the service is of very high standard.

See above.

 

[Howardh]

I know a number of 3-car/4 bed detached homes people in the Lostock area who would give "curious looks" to anyone making that suggestion of "getting them out of their cars".

I'm a one-car (there's only me!) 3-bed detached close to Lostock, and I would much rather use the bus/train than my car; one of the main reasons (alongside idiot drivers, not driving to the pub etc) I won't use my car are the parking cowboys, I won't go anywhere I can't park for free. And next year I get my bus pass! Buses are a public service and should be there even if it looks like no-one would use them in a certain area. Put the bus on...and they might!!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I'm a one-car (there's only me!) 3-bed detached close to Lostock, and I would much rather use the bus/train than my car; one of the main reasons (alongside idiot drivers, not driving to the pub etc) I won't use my car are the parking cowboys, I won't go anywhere I can't park for free. And next year I get my bus pass! Buses are a public service and should be there even if it looks like no-one would use them in a certain area. Put the bus on...and they might!!

You should have seen what it was like where we used to live on the rural area border between Prestbury and Mottram St Andrew, two miles away from the nearest bus stop or railway station, with a farm on both sides of our property before we relocated to a modern exclusive estate of six properties, 5 and 6 bedroomed. You would have had a much chance of seeing a coach and four than a bus or a train. I now live on my own after the death of my wife in 2021, still just outside the borders of the Bee Network Oblast on the rural border area of Wilmslow and Handforth, an area where as they might punfully say in Startrek "to boldly go where no bus has gone before". There are very reliable taxi companies that I use to make my weekly visits there and back to the NHS clinic as I have not driven since the stroke that I suffered in July 2012 and my wife used her Land Rover Discovery until her consultant advised her not to drive after her dementia took a turn for the worse. That car is now with one of my twin sons.

There are areas of Greater Manchester where the car offers availability of travel from your home for work and leisure that a bus service does not offer, such as Birtle where a solicitor friend of one of my twin sons lives and he commutes to his practice premises that is situated between Littleborough and Calderbrook.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

There are areas of Greater Manchester where the car offers availability of travel from your home for work and leisure that a bus service does not offer, such as Birtle where a solicitor friend of one of my twin sons lives and he commutes to his practice premises that is situated between Littleborough and Calderbrook.

We all know that the car offers ultimate flexibility (if you have one). This is a fundamental - what should the bus actually be for?

If it should be the inalienable right to provide a service to everyone, that is one thing. However, buses are best at catering for major traffic flows and, TBH, these are generally established and rooted in history. Focus on improving those, invest in better vehicles and make them quicker/more reliable and that will have much more of an impact in modal shift than simply putting buses on and hoping folks will use them.

The "build it and they will come" seldom yields results - few rural routes that gained Challenge funds ever approached anything like sustainable numbers.