Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
What has been the ruling on the minimum set period for tranche tendering periods in the first two already-issued tranches?
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TfGM Tranche 3 speculation
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northwichcat
Veteran Member
Some of the changes following the Little Gem collapse weren't due to TfGM wanting to change routes. There was little interest in the routes, with some getting no bids and others only getting high bids. In the case of one route D&G got an emergency contract to offer a much lower level of provision, than what the tender specified. It was improved when it went to a full tender.
Some operators probably wouldn't be to be as flexible as Belle Vue have been, with frequent vehicle and route changes. Even they've had difficulty finding a suitable vehicle for the 280 on some days.
That was the 375 (Stockport to Mellor). Under Little Gem it ran with three buses, from 6:40am to around 7pm, running hourly. When D&G took it on under the Emergency contract, much lower level of provision is a bit of an understatement. They ran it with one bus, and only one driver. The Stepping Hill to Stockport section had to go, the frequency went down to every two hours, and it only ran pretty much 9-6, with a gap in the middle for the driver to have a rest.
Provision did go back to an hourly service and with similar operating hours to before, but at the expense of re-jigging the route to no longer serve Stepping Hill Hospital, so that it would only need two vehicles (also renumbered 385.) At the same time they re-routed the Stotts run 364 service to compensate for the bits the 375 could no longer serve. It was all a bit messy, especially as the evening/Sunday service (run by Stagecoach) still runs under the old route.
I see 364 and 375 were pencilled in for Stockport Small franchise. Given the muddling around that had to be done purely to get SOME LEVEL of provision, it will be interesting to see if they both revert back to their old routes, or if they stick with what they have now (perhaps tweaking the 375 evening service.)
Five years for the large contracts and three for the small. Reviewable for a further two years each
Speculation: D&G win Stockport Small and run it out of Macclesfield. They win with a cheap bid that's cheap because money is being saved by never washing the buses (so no different to their current buses!)
Stotts win a franchise. There is much celebration that a small franchise has actually gone to an indie. Six months later they sell up to Diamond who move the services to Eccles Or First from Rochdale.
Stotts win a franchise. There is much celebration that a small franchise has actually gone to an indie. Six months later they sell up to Diamond who move the services to Eccles Or First from Rochdale.
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p2004
New Member
Based on the standard of service that Diamond had when the local routes around Altrincham, I'd hope they don't take it! Dusty buses in pretty obviously poor maintenance. The minibuses Arriva brought in under the latest lot look comical, but they're a massive improvement in quality at least.
Leyland Bus
Member
I'd be very surprised if Diamond got anything of any substance after the farce they made of handing over Bolton... let alone all the maintenance related debacles that followed...
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I don't think Julian Peddle is a fan of how TfGM have approached bus service contracts. If we presume Bee Network vehicles can't be used on the 88 or 130 and normal D&G vehicles would have to be reserved as a last resort for Manchester contracts, would D&G actually want that kind of arrangement?
The boss of a company may not like things but these things can often be overridden when it comes down to £££.
As for ring fencing certain vehicles to certain routes, they pretty much do anyway in some cases. Most 385 journeys are run using the same two vehicles. Bus companies do this stuff all the time.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Are you sure? D&G had their 64 reg Enviros, their 11 reg Enviros and 60 reg Solos retrofitted with Euro VI engines for the routes that went into Greater Manchester. The idea was the 60 reg Solos would be the regular 130 vehicles, 2 of the 64 reg Enviros and both the 11 reg ones would be the regulars for the 88, with another 64 reg Enviro for the Handforth Dean shuttle. Now they're used all over the place!
Looking at the 385 allocations for the past week:
Sat: 60 reg Solo and 13 reg Solo SR
Fri: 11 reg Enviro and 13 reg Solo SR
Thurs: 60 reg Solo and 11 reg Enviro
Wed: 60 reg Solo and 13 reg Solo SR
Tues: 2 x 13 reg Solo SRs
Mon: 60 reg Solo and 13 reg Solo SR
The most common allocation was a 60 reg Solo and 13 reg Solo SR but that only happened 3/6 days and even then Monday's Solo was vehicle 130, the other two day's it was vehicle 129. So only Wed and Sat's allocations matched. In total there were 5 different combinations of vehicles.
If the 13 reg Solo SRs are also Euro VI and the 385 contract requires Euro VI, then that might be why the 385 is more consistent than other routes, even if there's over 5 vehicles used on it.
385 goes past my house. One of their buses - an ex-Go Goodwins vehicle with the air horns, I think - has an advert on the back for a taxi company on the back. The taxi company is based in Crewe. The taxi company doesn't serve Stockport. Yet that bus has been going past my house for months. No, not every day. But regularly. If you look at bustimes.org you'll see that buses 105, 120, 130 regularly feature on the 385. 120 has been a regular for months. On this I must correct myself because I did say two vehicles.
Those vehicles may appear on other routes at certain times but they keep getting assigned to the 385. (Possible it's something to do with the steep hill at the Mellor end of the route.)
But the reality is that bus companies can - and regularly do - ringfence buses to certain services. Route branding. Suitability to certain conditions. Whatever. If D&G wanted to have a fleet of vehicles dedicated to Bee Network services, could they do it? Of course they could! It just takes planning! Do they want to? Who knows? But this is a thread about speculation! I speculate they could if they wanted to!
Those vehicles may appear on other routes at certain times but they keep getting assigned to the 385. (Possible it's something to do with the steep hill at the Mellor end of the route.)
But the reality is that bus companies can - and regularly do - ringfence buses to certain services. Route branding. Suitability to certain conditions. Whatever. If D&G wanted to have a fleet of vehicles dedicated to Bee Network services, could they do it? Of course they could! It just takes planning! Do they want to? Who knows? But this is a thread about speculation! I speculate they could if they wanted to!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Just as a matter of sheer interest, does the tender documentation make mention of the need to keep external vehicle body washing facilities as well internal cleaning to a set standard?
northwichcat
Veteran Member
Having travelled on some Go North West services in Manchester yesterday it's clear to see the difference between their operations and D&G's. While you can see the lilac coloured plastic on some Go North West vehicles, nothing else is obvious from the First era. Some of the old First vehicles appear to have been given new (quite thick) seat covers in Go Ahead colours. A world away from D&G's external repaint the exterior and then just sticking up their passenger notices.
What was obvious is there was a decker branded for the 135 on the 95. Also I noticed a broken down Solo near Heaton Park. Based on tracking it was probably NK12 HCD which missed the end of one journey and the entire next journey. So it sounds like they got the vehicle working again. Had that not happen they probably would have sent a spare bus available to take it's place, regardless of what normally runs the service.
The difference between Go North West and D&G is everything at Go North West will end up being Bee Network. With D&G if a vehicle on the 385 fails they could send up the vehicle from either the 312 or the Handforth Dean Free Bus, which would get there quicker than a replacement from Macclesfield.
Let's keep the thread on topic. It's for speculation about which organisations may bid for and win franchises in the next round.
mancbus
Member
i think Hyde Road and Sharston would be both run by Firstbus whilst Stockport and Ashton will be run by Diamond. Wythenshawe and others run by Stagecoach or Go Ahead.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I know it’s speculation but can we ask why you think that?
mancbus
Member
because some routes in stagecoach are ran by both Hyde road and Sharston and it would make sense and what if they change some routes to different depots and diamond have only gotten small ones so having both ashton and stockport would be great for them and stagecoah/go ahead/arriva can win the smaller ones
I don't really think this would accurate as some routes are ran by 2 depots and i think most of the large ones would be ran by the same companies probably FirstGroup/Diamond
Leyland Bus
Member
It's quite brave to say Diamond will get a large depot but this is a speculation thread so who knows!
As for 2 depots running the same route, whilst that happens now, it won't under "Bee Network" because its highly likely said 2 depots will be operated by different companies and it could get messy... So routes will be tidied up and left to one depot alone...
mancbus
Member
will they bring back some withdrawn buses such as 168 for bee network
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
I know that routes will be allocated to specific depots.
Also, I'm sure that operators will want to win whatever they've submitted bids for (or why else would they submit). I'm just wanted to understand WHY you think Diamond will get a large depot, or indeed, why you think First will get Hyde Road and Sharston?
mancbus
Member
Actually, I think Diamond will only win small; the reason why I thought Diamond would get large was because they were the 2nd biggest bus company in Manchester before Bee Network. But I think First might get all the Stagecoach depots because some routes like 86, 142, 143 and 219 are run by two depots and since they are large depots that’s my assumption - just like Stagecoach took the big depots in north Manchester.
northwichcat
Veteran Member
I suppose it depends how much they think it'll cost. Some services have been lost due to tender bids coming in much higher post-COVID and TfGM not having the funds to retain every bus service. I think there were reports of no bidders for some of the replacement tenders for Little Gem routes.
They aren’t going to split when the Bee Network comes in. The 142 will be run by Hyde Road and the 143 will be run by Sharston
mancbus
Member
I think that would make a lot of sense but also I think Stagecoach would just take one depot while a company like Arriva will take the other.
The list of routes isn’t really official yet as they might change the depots a bit and also not every route is listed and they also changed routes to another depot in the previous tranches.
Also some routes on like Christmas period like 163 which is run in Heywood is also run by Bolton on the Christmas period too.
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p2004
New Member
I would be very surprised to see Arriva taking a depot, very much feels like they're winding down their general operation in Greater Manchester; the 263 is most definitely no longer branded as Arriva Sapphire, and all routes are getting a wide array of misbranded buses operating them now - many advertising routes in Chorley, Wigan and Bolton
I've only ever heard about Diamond getting into trouble with TfGM since September, and I cannot really see them winning another franchise as it sounds like there is a lack of goodwill between the company and authority.
First/Go North West sound like somewhat reasonable shouts, and you can't rule out a surprise operator; but it'll be very interesting to see how much Stagecoach win. Most of the stuff up this time is Stagecoach as I recall, with the exception of Arriva's Trafford services. Can't see it going over too well if Stagecoach lose lots of their big routes. Especially Sharston - because the 43 is arguably the most valuable route of them all and the crown jewel of whoever gets to keep it.
I've only ever heard about Diamond getting into trouble with TfGM since September, and I cannot really see them winning another franchise as it sounds like there is a lack of goodwill between the company and authority.
First/Go North West sound like somewhat reasonable shouts, and you can't rule out a surprise operator; but it'll be very interesting to see how much Stagecoach win. Most of the stuff up this time is Stagecoach as I recall, with the exception of Arriva's Trafford services. Can't see it going over too well if Stagecoach lose lots of their big routes. Especially Sharston - because the 43 is arguably the most valuable route of them all and the crown jewel of whoever gets to keep it.
Cesarcollie
Member
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’Crown jewels’ become irrelevant in a franchise environment. The authority confiscates your routes - good and bad. You bid a price to run them!
Stagecoach is getting the 17, 59, 83 ,135 and 163? which must be at least on a par some of the busy southern routes like the 43 and 143 etc
I don't think Stagecoach can really complain at losing their old work when all the best stuff is now theirs in the north too. As others have said I can see First basically swapping to the south just a switcheroo of the old status quo really.
I don't think Stagecoach can really complain at losing their old work when all the best stuff is now theirs in the north too. As others have said I can see First basically swapping to the south just a switcheroo of the old status quo really.
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mancbus
Member
What about the 192, which is the most popular route in Manchester? I think Stagecoach will lose Hyde Road and Sharston and either Ashton/Stockport, just like in the north First and Go North West lost lots of routes like 17, 18, 135, 83, 409 etc. They are now run by Stagecoach, so i think routes like 43, 142, 143, 250, 192, 219 would be run first since Stagecoach taking their popular routes.
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