Tfl prosecuted nurse

[Lilo]

Hi everyone please help me
I used my dads freedom pass back in may on a bus, before getting off the buss i saw the insepectors and police at the bus stop and tried to flee quickly but he stopped me and i had to give my details because of the amount of police that were there. I showed him my bank card instead but the reader showed that i hadnt tapped in

I got letter back in august to explain my situation and explain what happened I wrote back but today i got a prosecution letter asking me to plead guilty or not i dont have a choice but to pleade guilty. The letter states i must respond back in 10 days but the letter itself arrived 10 days later so im not sure if this will also affect my case to make matters worse my dad opened the letter god knows why he never opens them

My situation is slightly complicated because i was caught in 2018 for using my dads card, then again last yr june basically iv been using it since 2018 but this time round I insisted i used my bank card. I am really worried if they will use that against me. If they ask me in court what ticket i used in May and i say the freedom pass im really scared of the outcome as this might turn out to be something bigger than they expected as I have been evading for more than 5 years. Will they check me the cctv cameras

Also when i filled out the plea online I couldn’t give an exact number for my monthly salary as each month is different due to shift work. I gave my basic salary before enhancement are added on,Will they say im lying in regards to that

My question now is will they only charge for the offence that occurred this yr or will they reconsider my previous history?

 

[skyhigh]

Also when i filled out the plea online I couldn’t give an exact number for my monthly salary as each month is different due to shift work.

Does this mean you have submitted a guilty plea already?

 

[Lilo]

yes, don’t really have a choice tbh

Does this mean you have submitted a guilty plea already?

yes, don’t really have a choice

 

[skyhigh]

yes, don’t really have a choice tbh

In which case as far as I'm aware any discussion over ways to avoid court are pointless now. The guilty plea has been submitted to the court and it's very difficult to retract that once done.

If you upload the paperwork you have (with personal details covered over) we can advise better though, including what offence you have pled guilty to.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Also when i filled out the plea online I couldn’t give an exact number for my monthly salary as each month is different due to shift work. I gave my basic salary before enhancement are added on,Will they say im lying in regards to that

I would expect fines to be based on your actual income rather than your basic income. I'd suggest contacting TfL and the court to explain that your pay varies, and give them details of your earnings by pay period for maybe the last year.

 

[Lilo]

In which case as far as I'm aware any discussion over ways to avoid court are pointless now. The guilty plea has been submitted to the court and it's very difficult to retract that once done.

If you upload the paperwork you have (with personal details covered over) we can advise better though, including what offence you have pled guilty to.

Thanks for responding
I think this is what im being charged with. My question is will they look at my previous history and decide if they will make the fine more because of my past convictions. For example being caught last yr with freedom pass, i haven’t admitted i used the freedom pass for this offence

 

[skyhigh]

Thanks for responding
I think this is what im being charged with. My question is will they look at my previous history and decide if they will make the fine more because of my past convictions. For example being caught last yr with freedom pass, i haven’t admitted i used the freedom pass for this offence

As far as can be seen they are only considering the offence on the day you were stopped.

To be quite honest, if you've been caught using a freedom pass twice before I'm not at all surprised they are prosecuting. What was the outcome on the last 2 occasions you were stopped?

Just a fuller answer (in my understanding) -
to overturn the guilty plea, you would have to prove that being found guilty would be unjust. This could potentially be proved here, as you did present a card on boarding. However - by doing this you'd have to argue that the pass you used was a Freedom pass that you had no entitlement to use and had previously been caught with, so would likely just result in a different or potentially worse prosecution.

 

[Lilo]

As far as can be seen they are only considering the offence on the day you were stopped.

To be quite honest, if you've been caught using a freedom pass twice before I'm not at all surprised they are prosecuting. What was the outcome on the last 2 occasions you were stopped?

first time was 2018 i paid £40 on the spot and he didnt take the freedom pass

Second time last yr they took the card and i paid £40

Third time round i didnt show it or revealed that i used the freedom pass, i maintained i used my bank card

I haven’t used the freedom pass since then i use my contactless for the days i go into work

 

[skyhigh]

first time was 2018 i paid £40 on the spot and he didnt take the freedom pass

Second time last yr they took the card and i paid £40

Third time round i didnt show it or revealed that i used the freedom pass, i maintained i used my bank card

I haven’t used the freedom pass since then i use my contactless for the days i go into work

The first two times you paid a penalty fare - they will have records of this against your name and may be why they decided not to issue a penalty fare this time. It looks like they are just prosecuting the single offence so will pay a fine and compensation relative to that.

Just to be very clear - you obviously hadn't learnt your lesson the first two times you were caught and you will now have a conviction that you may be required to declare to your employer as you are a Nurse - if so, penalty for failing to do so could be dismissal. You must not carry on using the Freedom Pass. It will go very badly for you if you're caught again.

You've evaded 5 years of fares so to be honest you've got off fairly lightly here.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

You say that you are a nurse, I would strongly advise seeking advice from your union over this matter, it may be better to alert hour employer about the matter sooner rather than being discovered at a latter date, I am aware that sometimes nurses contracts have a clause about informing the employer when you have been charged with a criminal offence even before convicted

I would also anonimise the photo you posted as it includes personal information which could be used to identify you by tfl

 

[Lilo]

As far as can be seen they are only considering the offence on the day you were stopped.

To be quite honest, if you've been caught using a freedom pass twice before I'm not at all surprised they are prosecuting. What was the outcome on the last 2 occasions you were stopped?

Just a fuller answer (in my understanding) -
to overturn the guilty plea, you would have to prove that being found guilty would be unjust. This could potentially be proved here, as you did present a card on boarding. However - by doing this you'd have to argue that the pass you used was a Freedom pass that you had no entitlement to use and had previously been caught with, so would likely just result in a different or potentially worse prosecution.

Honestly im not asking for them to be kind to

As far as can be seen they are only considering the offence on the day you were stopped.

To be quite honest, if you've been caught using a freedom pass twice before I'm not at all surprised they are prosecuting. What was the outcome on the last 2 occasions you were stopped?

Just a fuller answer (in my understanding) -
to overturn the guilty plea, you would have to prove that being found guilty would be unjust. This could potentially be proved here, as you did present a card on boarding. However - by doing this you'd have to argue that the pass you used was a Freedom pass that you had no entitlement to use and had previously been caught with, so would likely just result in a different or potentially worse prosecution.

im happy to pleade guilty and pay off whatever they ask me im just scared they ask what card i have uses that day and because of my previous history they will know that it was the freedom

The first two times you paid a penalty fare - they will have records of this against your name and may be why they decided not to issue a penalty fare this time. It looks like they are just prosecuting the single offence so will pay a fine and compensation relative to that.

Just to be very clear - you obviously hadn't learnt your lesson the first two times you were caught and you will now have a conviction that you may be required to declare to your employer as you are a Nurse - if so, penalty for failing to do so could be dismissal. You must not carry on using the Freedom Pass. It will go very badly for you if you're caught again.

You've evaded 5 years of fares so to be honest you've got off fairly lightly here.

i havent used it since that day if you r read my response. Is it an actual criminal offence like it will appear on my dbs?

 

[30907]

As the letter says, you are being prosecuted for a criminal offence. It appears to be heing dealt with by the Regulations so is "non-recordable" but it may nevertheless appear on your Enhanced DBS.
You will be able to find your professional body's guidance, you would do well to speak to your union, and you will definitely need to inform your employer once convicted.
Fortunately, this sort of offence is not likely to concern your employer too much - whereas repeated dishonesty certainly ought to, so you should consider yourself lucky.

 

[AlterEgo]

if you are a nurse, you should read the Nursing and Midwifery Council Code, which states you MUST:

23.2 tell both us and any employers as soon as you can about any caution or charge against you, or if you have received a conditional discharge in relation to, or have been found guilty of, a criminal offence (other than a protected caution or conviction)

This offence is not protected for the purposes of the code:

Convictions​

A conviction in England, Wales or Northern Ireland is protected if all of the below bullet points apply:

• eleven years have passed since the date of conviction (or five and a half years if the person was under 18 at the date of conviction),
• it did not result in a custodial sentence (including a suspended sentence) or service detention, and
• it is not for a ‘listed’ offence.

Inform your employer and the NMC immediately or you will risk your career.

 

[JGurney]

if you are a nurse, you should read the Nursing and Midwifery Council Code, which states you MUST:

23.2 tell both us and any employers as soon as you can about any caution or charge against you, or if you have received a conditional discharge in relation to, or have been found guilty of, a criminal offence (other than a protected caution or conviction)

This offence is not protected for the purposes of the code:

Convictions​

A conviction in England, Wales or Northern Ireland is protected if all of the below bullet points apply:

• eleven years have passed since the date of conviction (or five and a half years if the person was under 18 at the date of conviction),
• it did not result in a custodial sentence (including a suspended sentence) or service detention, and
• it is not for a ‘listed’ offence.

Inform your employer and the NMC immediately or you will risk your career.

I am afraid AlterEgo is right. You have got yourself into a serious situation here. You must disclose it to the NMC or risk things getting worse if they learn of this first from another source.
If you are a member of RCN, consult your local RCN rep. first - and urgently.

 

[island]

My situation is slightly complicated because i was caught in 2018 for using my dads card, then again last yr june basically iv been using it since 2018 but this time round I insisted i used my bank card. I am really worried if they will use that against me. If they ask me in court what ticket i used in May and i say the freedom pass im really scared of the outcome as this might turn out to be something bigger than they expected as I have been evading for more than 5 years. Will they check me the cctv cameras

It is unlikely. They normally only charge the offence that you were caught for.

The court paperwork will say whether they are alleging other violations. You might see terms such as “the court will be asked to take <something> into consideration”. Feel free to upload the paperwork from the court (blocking any personal details) if you would like advice.

Also when i filled out the plea online I couldn’t give an exact number for my monthly salary as each month is different due to shift work. I gave my basic salary before enhancement are added on,Will they say im lying in regards to that

They will if they find out. In that respect I would advise you to write (a letter, in the post, not a call, not a text, not an email) to the court quoting the reference number of the case and saying something to the effect that you rushed when filling out the online plea and you wish to update the income amount you entered. I would suggest that you provide the total amount you were paid over the last 12 months. The court will then average it down to a week.

My question now is will they only charge for the offence that occurred this yr or will they reconsider my previous history?

Magistrates courts can only hear this type of case where the court process was started within six months of the alleged offence. It is likely you will only be answering one charge for the day you were caught.

Is it an actual criminal offence like it will appear on my dbs?

Yes, it is an “actual criminal offence”. Without seeing details of the offence you have been charged with, I cannot say whether it will appear on a DBS certificate. But that is irrelevant. As AlterEgo says above, you must inform your employer and the nursing council that you have been charged. If you decide to layer more dishonesty over the dishonesty you have shown so far, and are caught, that will certainly put your career in jeopardy.

 

[skyhigh]

i havent used it since that day if you r read my response.

But at the same time you've been caught twice before and have evaded fares for 5 years. I think it's reasonable to make entirely clear that despite the fact you're not being prosecuted for use of the Freedom Pass on this occasion that it's a very bad idea to continue evading fares - as your history indicates you might be tempted to do.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Oh dear

Yes, as AlterEgo has already stated above, you are obliged to tell your employer and your regulatory body (i.e. the NMC).

How they deal with this is up to them but probably at best, the NMC may impose a sanction on your file that expires after a period of time (maybe 1 year). And you know, the NMC register can be seen by the public. If you do not inform them, then the next time your DBS comes around, you could be summarily dismissed for dishonesty and gross misconduct + failing to inform them of a conviction

 

[UserM]

Oh dear

Yes, as AlterEgo has already stated above, you are obliged to tell your employer and your regulatory body (i.e. the NMC).

How they deal with this is up to them but probably at best, the NMC may impose a sanction on your file that expires after a period of time (maybe 1 year). And you know, the NMC register can be seen by the public. If you do not inform them, then the next time your DBS comes around, you could be summarily dismissed for dishonesty and gross misconduct + failing to inform them of a conviction

Indeed further to the above it indeed remains a high possibility of you being struck off by the NMC, with the sanction on file being very much a best case scenario.

Indeed being instantly dismissed from your current position on the grounds of gross misconduct would then be the least of your worries. A fitness to practice hearing is not out of the question, with the prior sanction of being struck off being available to the panel.

Start your reading here at: https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...isplaying discriminatory views and behaviours

Indeed having been struck off by the NMC and this being a matter of public record you wound find it extremely hard to be accepted by any other regulatory body for any such regulated profession. As well as I suspect finding it very hard to find any other job, with the top google search of your name by any potential employer, likely to be the results of any sanction against yourself.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Indeed further to the above it indeed remains a high possibility of you being struck off by the NMC, with the sanction on file being very much a best case scenario.

Indeed being instantly dismissed from your current position on the grounds of gross misconduct would then be the least of your worries. A fitness to practice hearing is not out of the question, with the prior sanction of being struck off being available to the panel.

Start your reading here at: https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/understanding-fitness-to-practise/fitness-to-practise-allegations/misconduct/#:~:text=This will usually only happen,displaying discriminatory views and behaviours

Indeed having been struck off by the NMC and this being a matter of public record you wound find it extremely hard to be accepted by any other regulatory body for any such regulated profession. As well as I suspect finding it very hard to find any other job, with the top google search of your name by any potential employer, likely to be the results of any sanction against yourself.

And https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/...llegations/criminal-convictions-and-cautions/ may also be of use. In part, it says

Assessing the seriousness of convictions and cautions​

If the criminal offending was directly linked to the nurse, midwife or nursing associate’s professional practice, it’s very likely this would be serious enough to affect their fitness to practise.

(...)

If the criminal offending took place in the nurse, midwife or nursing associate’s private life, and there’s no clear risk to patients or members of the public, then it is unlikely that we’ll need to take regulatory action to uphold confidence in nurses, midwives or nursing associates, or professional standards.

We’d only need to do that if the nurse, midwife or nursing associate was given a custodial sentence (this includes suspended sentences), or the conviction was for a specified offence.

(my italics and bold for emphasis)

The advice to the OP to let their employer and regulator know is good - but the consequences may not be as dreadful as we are suggesting.

 

[island]

Indeed further to the above it indeed remains a high possibility of you being struck off by the NMC, with the sanction on file being very much a best case scenario.

Indeed being instantly dismissed from your current position on the grounds of gross misconduct would then be the least of your worries. A fitness to practice hearing is not out of the question, with the prior sanction of being struck off being available to the panel.

Start your reading here at: https://www.nmc.org.uk/ftp-library/understanding-fitness-to-practise/fitness-to-practise-allegations/misconduct/#:~:text=This will usually only happen,displaying discriminatory views and behaviours

Indeed having been struck off by the NMC and this being a matter of public record you wound find it extremely hard to be accepted by any other regulatory body for any such regulated profession. As well as I suspect finding it very hard to find any other job, with the top google search of your name by any potential employer, likely to be the results of any sanction against yourself.

To be clear, these dire warnings refer to the consequences of trying to conceal the conviction, not the conviction itself.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The reality of the situation is they have been caught three times now & been fraudulently avoiding fares for 5 years. It doesn't really say a high level of integrity and honesty. The best case scenario is that they just prosecute this one instance. And the OP pays every fare in full from now on.

 

[Titfield]

I wonder if the court informs the NMC of any convictions sustained by Nurses etc and thus if you do not advise the NMC within a set period of time, you will be called to account not only for the conviction but also for the failure to declare.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder if the court informs the NMC of any convictions sustained by Nurses etc and thus if you do not advise the NMC within a set period of time, you will be called to account not only for the conviction but also for the failure to declare.

The NMC does maintain intelligence about its registered members through legal databases, and they will be notified in time of any convictions.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I don't see that the OP has suggested that they weren't intending to tell their regulator and employer.

So perhaps we should draw the tangent about what happens if they don't to a close? We're beginning to drift away from what might actually be relevant advice to them.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I wonder if the court informs the NMC of any convictions sustained by Nurses etc and thus if you do not advise the NMC within a set period of time, you will be called to account not only for the conviction but also for the failure to declare.

This will depend on the seriousness of the case/conviction. If the OP is prosecuted for this one event alone, I doubt very much it will be reported to the NMC. They will just rely on the honesty and integrity of the OP to disclose the conviction (if he is convicted of course)

We won't know what will happen until the OP comes back with more information

 

[Brissle Girl]

I don't see that the OP has suggested that they weren't intending to tell their regulator and employer.

So perhaps we should draw the tangent about what happens if they don't to a close? We're beginning to drift away from what might actually be relevant advice to them.

I'm inclined to agree. I think we have potentially laboured this point unduly, and as you say it's tangential to the main discussion.

 

[UserM]

To be clear, these dire warnings refer to the consequences of trying to conceal the conviction, not the conviction itself.

Indeed, I should have made this more clear in my post!!

Although I feel given the OP’s somewhat questionable attitude to paying train fares, it is not too much of a stretch to say they may consider attempting to conceal such a conviction.

Although in relation to people saying the point has been been laboured unduly, I say that being in such a position of trust comes with huge responsibility, that being the very reason the profession is regulated and thus people must comply with such conditions.

 

[AlterEgo]

This will depend on the seriousness of the case/conviction. If the OP is prosecuted for this one event alone, I doubt very much it will be reported to the NMC. They will just rely on the honesty and integrity of the OP to disclose the conviction (if he is convicted of course)

That is categorically not correct. Regulated professions have access to information about their members and will receive information direct from legal databases about convictions, no matter how minor and no matter whether they are recorded on the PNC or appear on a DBS. The NMC will receive a certificate of its member's conviction as it is entitled to do so.

The OP should have declared this to both her employer and the NMC the moment they received the summons. It is imperative and in the OP's best interests to disclose this matter immediately to both parties if they have not done so, and their concern it "would appear on their DBS" is what has prompted the discussion, because this is after the fact. The NMC will be informed upon conviction anyway, something they seem very unaware of.

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't see that the OP has suggested that they weren't intending to tell their regulator and employer.

So perhaps we should draw the tangent about what happens if they don't to a close? We're beginning to drift away from what might actually be relevant advice to them.

I do tend to agree - and we need to be mindful that whilst it is helpful to the OP to ensure they are aware of this aspect of things, the advice they came here for related to the fares and ticketing evasion issue - and we should probably be mindful of that.

Ref the wider issue - the best bit of advice on that was up thread fairly early on for @Lilo - ie speak to your RCN or other union rep at work, for specialist advice on declaring any conviction for ticketing offences to your employer and regulatory organisation - as they will have dealt with that sort of thing on many occasions I am sure, and they will have specialist expertise that they can draw on to help - probably more easily come by within eg RCN or Unison say, than specialist advice on ticket evasion come to think of it!

 

[yorkie]

I do tend to agree - and we need to be mindful that whilst it is helpful to the OP to ensure they are aware of this aspect of things, the advice they came here for related to the fares and ticketing evasion issue - and we should probably be mindful of that.

Agreed (our guidelines do allude to this, though if anyone can think of how we can tweak the wording, please send me a message as we are looking at reviewing the wording in due course)

Ref the wider issue - the best bit of advice on that was up thread fairly early on for @Lilo - ie speak to your RCN or other union rep at work, for specialist advice on declaring any conviction for ticketing offences to your employer and regulatory organisation - as they will have dealt with that sort of thing on many occasions I am sure, and they will have specialist expertise that they can draw on to help - probably more easily come by within eg RCN or Unison say, than specialist advice on ticket evasion come to think of it!

I'll leave this thread locked for the time being; @Lilo please click the report button on this post, to let us know when you either have an update (or outcome) of this case and/or if you wish to seek any further advice.