TFW Advance Tickets - South Wales to Manchester

[Jez]

Why have TFW advance tickets on the South Wales to Manchester route got so expensive all of a sudden?

I have just priced up a journey from Neath to Manchester for 2 advance singles for the last weekend in May, which is within the 6 week window when TFW advances go on sale. I was surprised when the price of an advance was £57.10 each which makes the total return trip £114.20. Just 20p short of the anytime return from Neath to Manchester which is priced at £114.40. A ticket I could purchase on the morning of the journey and not several weeks in advance and would have 1 month to return on any train and any permitted route.

Its not that im not prepared to pay £114 for my tickets if I have to, its just that I thought the point of advance tickets was you got them for a far cheaper price but were restricted to the date and time and if plans changed subject to a £10 admin fee per ticket to change them. There is no point in purchasing advances at that price when you only save 20p! And if circumstances changed and they needed to be changed paying the £10 admin fee per ticket would actually work out more expensive then an on the day anytime return.

I even tried splitting the journey at both Cardiff and Shrewsbury but a combination of tickets still gave me roughly the same total price. Why are fares so expensive on the marches? I remember the days when you could get the 2 advance single tickets about half the price of the standard anytime return. It seems only when there is a sale on (like in February when i got a return for £67 and the return journey was in 1st class) that you get a decent discount now.

 

[Wandering Pom]

As I understood it, the point of Advance tickets was for the railway to sell seats that would otherwise go unfilled, with the low prices being an incentive for passengers to accept the loss of flexibility. Since trains on many regional routes are now very busy (judging by many other threads here), there's no benefit to the railway in selling cheap Advance tickets any more.

 

[Watershed]

There is absolutely no point buying Advances from a site that charges you £10 to change your Advance. There are several sites that don't charge admin fees at all, or at least not for Advance ticket amendments. But your point stands - it certainly seems a lot more expensive than the usually reasonable value TfW Advances. Perhaps they are also hiking up Advances to make up for some of the losses that are leading to the timetable cutbacks in December?

 

[CyrusWuff]

As I understood it, the point of Advance tickets was for the railway to sell seats that would otherwise go unfilled, with the low prices being an incentive for passengers to accept the loss of flexibility. Since trains on many regional routes are now very busy (judging by many other threads here), there's no benefit to the railway in selling cheap Advance tickets any more.

Also the last weekend in May is a bank holiday weekend, which will likely put further pressure on loadings.

 

[Envoy]

Are you sure that the direct line between Shrewsbury and Crewe is open on the chosen date(s). If closed, they might have raised the prices to discourage customers who would be crammed onto alternative routes such as via Chester?

If someone could give you a lift to Pontarddulais, is the Heart of Wales line a cheaper alternative - if you can put up with a sprinter?

 

[Jez]

Thank you for your replies.

I did wonder if it being a Bank Holiday weekend would have some impact. I am looking to travel on the Friday which doesnt have a diversion via Chester yet still has very expensive advance tickets. Return on the Sunday which does have the diversion via Chester. But even so why penalise customers with not only a longer journey but a more expensive ticket also!

I did a random search on a different weekday and tried mid week and still came up with mostly advance singles of £57 and one i found for £51.20 but even that isnt a hugely massive discount considering you have to pay so far in advance and are restricted to the set times. Ive noticed for a while that unless a sale is on prices seem to have increased a lot on this route.

I have used the HOWL before and I found an advance for £30 from Shrewsbury to Neath via HOWL but by the time i add the Shrewsbury to Manchester ticket on top it wouldnt really work out much cheaper. I dont mind a 153 on the HOWL as they tend to be quieter and i think the slow stop start journey suits them better.

if I have to pay £114 i will buy the ticket on arrival at the station that morning, At least I have the flexibility to travel on any train i choose.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Purely demand based. No need to sell cheap Advance tickets as the trains will still easily fill up at the higher price tiers / flexible fares anyway. Moreso compounded by the bank holiday.

TfW have finally realised that they don't need super-cheap tickets on most of their services now that leisure demand is healthy.

Most of their Off Peak (essentially Anytime) fares are fairly competitively priced too.

Some of the Welsh rangers/rovers also undercut their own Off Peak fares, may be worth looking at them.

 

[Envoy]

Another factor could be that they are still not in a position to provide 5 coach 197’s on that route. Perhaps, once that is the case, they will offer lower fares to attract custom and get bums on seats? It is also not a good idea to travel on the Friday prior to a bank holiday weekend as trains are likely to be crowded - hence high prices.

 

[Jez]

Purely demand based. No need to sell cheap Advance tickets as the trains will still easily fill up at the higher price tiers / flexible fares anyway. Moreso compounded by the bank holiday.

TfW have finally realised that they don't need super-cheap tickets on most of their services now that leisure demand is healthy.

Most of their Off Peak (essentially Anytime) fares are fairly competitively priced too.

Some of the Welsh rangers/rovers also undercut their own Off Peak fares, may be worth looking at them.

There is little point offering advance singles that work out less than £1 cheaper for the out and return journey than the off peak return. The only way it would work out well is if someone was just making a single journey and using alternative transport back. Or if a cheap advance could be found on one of the journeys. Otherwise nobody is going to buy 2 advances price £57.10 when its only £114.40 for the off peak return.

Fair enough if demand is so high they dont need to offer cheap tickets as they will fill the trains anyway but they might as well scrap the advances on this route in that case.

Another factor could be that they are still not in a position to provide 5 coach 197’s on that route. Perhaps, once that is the case, they will offer lower fares to attract custom and get bums on seats? It is also not a good idea to travel on the Friday prior to a bank holiday weekend as trains are likely to be crowded - hence high prices.

Thats a good point. They also have sales where advances are usually half price - so you pay £29 per single ticket for example. However it all depends when these are and if its a convenient time to travel.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

There is little point offering advance singles that work out less than £1 cheaper for the out and return journey than the off peak return. The only way it would work out well is if someone was just making a single journey and using alternative transport back. Or if a cheap advance could be found on one of the journeys. Otherwise nobody is going to buy 2 advances price £57.10 when its only £114.40 for the off peak return.

Fair enough if demand is so high they dont need to offer cheap tickets as they will fill the trains anyway but they might as well scrap the advances on this route in that case.


Thats a good point. They also have sales where advances are usually half price - so you pay £29 per single ticket for example. However it all depends when these are and if its a convenient time to travel.

It makes a lot of sense, and commercially it is extremely successful for TOCs to offer Advance fares only pence less than the flexible ticket.

It means that they get to keep 100% of the revenue, rather than potentially share it with other operators if you were to buy a flexible/Any Permitted ticket.

If you're buying a single and catching that specific train, you may as well save £1.

Given most retailers now show cheapest Advance ticket combinations by default, it's unlikely many customers will manually select the slightly more expensive flexible fare.

It's also extremely successful from a revenue protection perspective, less risk of dubious refunds / ticket re-use etc.

 

[Jez]

It makes a lot of sense, and commercially it is extremely successful for TOCs to offer Advance fares only pence less than the flexible ticket.

It means that they get to keep 100% of the revenue, rather than potentially share it with other operators if you were to buy a flexible/Any Permitted ticket.

If you're buying a single and catching that specific train, you may as well save £1.

Given most retailers now show cheapest Advance ticket combinations by default, it's unlikely many customers will manually select the slightly more expensive flexible fare.

It's also extremely successful from a revenue protection perspective, less risk of dubious refunds / ticket re-use etc.

Its good for the TOC but not so good for customers.

When you have to spend over £100 on a ticket saving £1 is neither here or there really. Especially as you still have massive restrictions with advance tickets. if my plans were to change between now and the end of May and for some reason I had to cancel my trip I would have to pay an admin fee to change the day and time. I tend to book my tickets online using the TFW website or app. Occasionally use the ticket office especially if i have delay repay vouchers to use.

Unless an advance is around £20 cheaper than the off peak/anytime return or i book it very close to the day of travel its not worth it really. Ive booked some very cheap advances from Neath or PT to Cardiff for example and sometimes booked less than an hour before travel. Its worth it then to save say £4 when you know you are getting that train.

Anyway unless some cheap advances appear i think for this journey i will just be paying at the ticket office or on the app on the day of travel.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Any chance that the train up to Manchester could be full and standing if tickets are bought on the day of travel and no reservations are held?

 

[Jez]

Any chance that the train up to Manchester could be full and standing if tickets are bought on the day of travel and no reservations are held?

there are no reservations anyway. So its possible even with an advance ticket to be standing. Its happened to me. Not for a while though.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Any chance that the train up to Manchester could be full and standing if tickets are bought on the day of travel and no reservations are held?

There's no seat reservations on TfW these days, counted place only.

And yes, TfW trains from South Wales to the North West are absolutely heaving even without a bank holiday. If a 2 car Class 197 turns up at the wrong time, people are either standing for an hour or left behind.

 

[Hadders]

It makes a lot of sense, and commercially it is extremely successful for TOCs to offer Advance fares only pence less than the flexible ticket.

I'm afraid this just sums up the attitude of many in the rail industry.

What about passengers? Who is thinking about them and looking after their interests?

It is not in passengers interests to offer TOC specific Advance fares that are pennies cheaper than a flexible ticket. A savvy passenger might decide to trade flexibility for a few pennies but there's a huge risk for the majority, who already think rail ticketing is far too complex, of getting caught out by the rail industry's often awful attitute to customer service and punitive response to ticketing mistakes.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The "Anytime" fare you quote (£115.40) is actually an Off Peak return fare, but like most TfW "8A" fares is valid on any train/route.
The "Via Llandovery" version of this ticket is actually dearer at £118.30.
There are good value day return fares via the Central Wales line to Shrewsbury and from there to Manchester, but presumably you are not doing a day trip.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'm afraid this just sums up the attitude of many in the rail industry.

What about passengers? Who is thinking about them and looking after their interests?

It is not in passengers interests to offer TOC specific Advance fares that are pennies cheaper than a flexible ticket. A savvy passenger might decide to trade flexibility for a few pennies but there's a huge risk for the majority, who already think rail ticketing is far too complex, of getting caught out by the rail industry's often awful attitute to customer service and punitive response to ticketing mistakes.

Similarly to the LNER fare restructuring, who actually cares, or indeed, even notices?

TfW isn't awash with complaints about this, neither are LNER. This situation exists across all the operators with a yield management strategy.

The only people who are complaining about the fare reforms / commercial policies are generally not your average passenger. Members of this forum have unusually strong views about issues that the vast majority of 'normal' customers couldn't care less about.

Airline style demand based pricing, particularly easyJet/Ryanair style, is an increasingly accepted (and expected) part of culture within the UK and most of Europe, and not just within transport.

Largely, customers just want a guaranteed seat at a price point they can live with, even if it means they need to sacrifice flexibility.

 

[Jez]

The "Anytime" fare you quote (£115.40) is actually an Off Peak return fare, but like most TfW "8A" fares is valid on any train/route.
The "Via Llandovery" version of this ticket is actually dearer at £118.30.
There are good value day return fares via the Central Wales line to Shrewsbury and from there to Manchester, but presumably you are not doing a day trip.

Off peak but still valid before 930am and between 4pm-630pm unlike when i travel to Neath or PT to Cardiff on a weekday and have to pay extra to travel before 9.30am and between 4pm-6.30pm.

I dont get why they call it off peak not anytime as you can travel on any train I assume?

i wouldnt go via Llandovery as it adds over an hour to the journey. if it was ridiculously cheaper for an advance from Shrewsbury-Neath via Llandovery only then id consider it.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Off peak but still valid before 930am and between 4pm-630pm unlike when i travel to Neath or PT to Cardiff on a weekday and have to pay extra to travel before 9.30am and between 4pm-6.30pm.

Difference between the validity of Off Peak Returns and Off Peak Day Returns, presumably?

 

[Jez]

Similarly to the LNER fare restructuring, who actually cares, or indeed, even notices?

TfW isn't awash with complaints about this, neither are LNER. This situation exists across all the operators with a yield management strategy.

The only people who are complaining about the fare reforms / commercial policies are generally not your average passenger. Members of this forum have unusually strong views about issues that the vast majority of 'normal' customers couldn't care less about.

Airline style demand based pricing, particularly easyJet/Ryanair style, is an increasingly accepted (and expected) part of culture within the UK and most of Europe, and not just within transport.

Largely, customers just want a guaranteed seat at a price point they can live with, even if it means they need to sacrifice flexibility.

Im pretty sure passengers who are not members of this forum/enthusiasts would notice fares being so expensive if they travelled regularly or even a few times a year.

Also the fares are not in proportion to the length of journey - e.g. i could get a day return from Neath to Cardiff for around £14 (anytime not off peak) a journey of around 40 minutes. Yet a return journey to Manchester which would be roughly 6 times longer than a journey to Cardiff is a lot more than 6 x £14. This is just one example off the top of my head.

Difference between the validity of Off Peak Returns and Off Peak Day Returns, presumably?

Yes in fairness it is a day return to Cardiff. but i still think there is a massive gap in prices between different routes.

Look how cheap tickets are on the HOWL for example and some Cardiff local routes.

I'm afraid this just sums up the attitude of many in the rail industry.

What about passengers? Who is thinking about them and looking after their interests?

It is not in passengers interests to offer TOC specific Advance fares that are pennies cheaper than a flexible ticket. A savvy passenger might decide to trade flexibility for a few pennies but there's a huge risk for the majority, who already think rail ticketing is far too complex, of getting caught out by the rail industry's often awful attitute to customer service and punitive response to ticketing mistakes.

Well said and I totally agree with you.

I suppose at least if i buy a flexible anytime ticket the money is shared between XC and TFW (and possibly others?). Why should TFW get all of the money if they cant provide a decent discount their customers with cheaper advance tickets.

 

[mangyiscute]

Airline style demand based pricing, particularly easyJet/Ryanair style, is an increasingly accepted (and expected) part of culture within the UK and most of Europe, and not just within transport.

I'd love to hear your examples for anything that has changed to demand based pricing without a load of complaints and without being bad for consumers - iirc when some large music artists have done that recently there has been massive backlash since the price for some tickets have massively increased.

Furthermore, since for a lot of people travelling by train is a necessity, not an optional pleasure (that something like a flight usually is) it is absolutely key that we keep prices within reach of everyone and at a maximum set price so people don't get caught out by crazy prices.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

I'd love to hear your examples for anything that has changed to demand based pricing without a load of complaints and without being bad for consumers - iirc when some large music artists have done that recently there has been massive backlash since the price for some tickets have massively increased.

Furthermore, since for a lot of people travelling by train is a necessity, not an optional pleasure (that something like a flight usually is) it is absolutely key that we keep prices within reach of everyone and at a maximum set price so people don't get caught out by crazy prices.

Did/do the music venues still sell out, even with the so-called backlash? If so, seems to suggest that they were underpriced to start with.

Market forces generally equalise the price at the correct level - it's in nobody's interest to have a product or service at a price point that is unachievable.

Transport for Wales already requires huge amounts of public subsidy as it is - possibly even unsustainable levels of subsidy, hence proposals to cut services across their network. I'd rather the operator tried to extract as much cash as possible from customers at the maximum price points the market can tolerate than see even further cuts to services.

 

[mangyiscute]

Did/do the music venues still sell out, even with the so-called backlash? If so, seems to suggest that they were underpriced to start with.

Market forces generally equalise the price at the correct level - it's in nobody's interest to have a product or service at a price point that is unachievable.

Transport for Wales already requires huge amounts of public subsidy as it is - possibly even unsustainable levels of subsidy, hence proposals to cut services across their network. I'd rather the operator tried to extract as much cash as possible from customers at the maximum price points the market can tolerate than see even further cuts to services.

I wouldn't say that just because something sells out means it was at the correct price. Market price is not always the best thing in a lot of markets, that is just basic economics, and for something like a train service which is crucial as a way to transport people, services need to be affordable and reliable in order to provide huge benefits to the rest of the country in economic, social and environmental terms - pure profit/loss should never define whether the railways are a success.

 

[Kite159]

I've noticed it as well on the Crewe - Manchester flow. Previously you could get tickets for £4-£5 each way. But looking at the first Sunday in June where tickets have been released and it's £10 each way* (so for anybody making a return they will be better off buying an off-peak day return so TfW gets less money, as whom will pay 10p less than any permitted for a 'TfW only ticket' when the saving was more like £5 it was worth restricting yourself to the hourly TfW service.

Prices like that will just push passengers to using the Northern stopper, longer journey time but a bigger saving.

*Even on the first train of the day from Crewe which in my experience is quite lightly loaded

(Looking at BR Fares, the £10 on offer seems to be the highest tier, I know that day the service is split at Crewe due to the line towards Shrewsbury being closed with South Wales - Crewe via Chester and a separate Crewe - Manchester shuttle but it's still quite expensive compared to normal, however looking at other weeks everything is either £10 or not available. Great for anybody doing a one-way journey and doesn't want the extended journey time on the Northern service but they are simply shooting themselves in the foot)

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Talking about Crewe -> Manchester journeys, walk up TOC restricted tickets which are sometimes priced at just 10p or 20p less than the Any Permitted alternative, or are sometimes exactly the same, such as the £16.50 "route Avanti" Off Peak Day Return, are, IMHO, a scam.

 

[Envoy]

I see that on Sundays, you can go from Neath (dep 10.44) to Manchester on a Mk4 train with 5 coaches.

Here is the service today:> https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P64611/2024-04-21/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[Hadders]

Similarly to the LNER fare restructuring, who actually cares, or indeed, even notices?

TfW isn't awash with complaints about this, neither are LNER. This situation exists across all the operators with a yield management strategy.

The only people who are complaining about the fare reforms / commercial policies are generally not your average passenger. Members of this forum have unusually strong views about issues that the vast majority of 'normal' customers couldn't care less about.

Airline style demand based pricing, particularly easyJet/Ryanair style, is an increasingly accepted (and expected) part of culture within the UK and most of Europe, and not just within transport.

Largely, customers just want a guaranteed seat at a price point they can live with, even if it means they need to sacrifice flexibility.

You make it sound as though the public are calling for this sort of thing. They’re not.

Selling a TOC specific ticket, whether Advance or walk on, a few pence cheaper than a flexible ticket is absolutely bonkers, and nothing to do with fares reform. It’s just an example of the railway at its lack of customer service best.

I’m not against fares reform. But history has told us that the kack-handed way it’ll be implemented by the rail industry will result in more complication and higher prices, dressed up as simplification. The LNER trial is an excellent example of this.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

You make it sound as though the public are calling for this sort of thing. They’re not.

Selling a TOC specific ticket, whether Advance or walk on, a few pence cheaper than a flexible ticket is absolutely bonkers, and nothing to do with fares reform. It’s just an example of the railway at its lack of customer service best.

I’m not against fares reform. But history has told us that the kack-handed way it’ll be implemented by the rail industry will result in more complication and higher prices, dressed up as simplification. The LNER trial is an excellent example of this.

They're also not complaining about it - i.e. most people have absolutely no opinion / are completely neutral to these fares. Most just want the cheapest fare for the journey they have in mind.

People are happy to save anything at all - whether it's pence or pounds.

If I'm buying a single ticket, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a particular train, why wouldn't I want to select the cheapest ticket, even if it's just a few pence?

 

[mangyiscute]

They're also not complaining about it - i.e. most people have absolutely no opinion / are completely neutral to these fares. Most just want the cheapest fare for the journey they have in mind.

People are happy to save anything at all - whether it's pence or pounds.

If I'm buying a single ticket, and I'm pretty sure I'm going to get a particular train, why wouldn't I want to select the cheapest ticket, even if it's just a few pence?

The public would certainly be complaining if they understood what was going on, unfortunately, most of them don't care enough to dive into the details of it, and obviously the DfT is publishing their fancy advertisement about how great the changes are without any actual details.
We are seeing more and more new people on the forum saying "why is this advance ticket so high, usually they cost half of this" and I see similar posts elsewhere, for example on reddit. People are also usually happy to pay a little more to have flexibility, just once again, most are unaware of the different ticket types and what they mean.
I don't understand why you are trying to defend the government making train fares way more expensive (which is what every fare simplification scheme so far has been), it is clearly a bad thing and a stupid idea. The general election can't come soon enough.

 

[Dai Corner]

don't understand why you are trying to defend the government making train fares way more expensive (which is what every fare simplification scheme so far has been), it is clearly a bad thing and a stupid idea. The general election can't come soon enough.

Were talking about the left wing Welsh Labour Government here, of course. Do you feel a Labour UK Government would do anything different?