Thames-Clyde Express in the 1970's

[HurdyGurdy]

Could anyone here point me to timetables for the named Thames-Clyde Express, through service from St Pancras to Glasgow and v/v, in the period from 1974 to 1979? What happened to it after that? At what point did the through daytime service (named or otherwise) on that route finally end?

Also, any info about the overnight through service on the same route, which I think was still running in 1974/5 (my old scribbled notebook seems to suggest) would be gratefully received. I remember an overnight trip from St Pancras all the way to Glasgow at around that time (departing on a Sunday, in July, but not sure which year). I would definitely have been seated, but were sleeping cars still conveyed?

Four questions in one.

 

[jfollows]

The 1974 timetable extract attached.
By 1977 it only ran between Nottingham and Glasgow (and wasn't named).
07:15 & 10:20 Nottingham-Glasgow, 16:05 Nottingham-Carlisle.

1974 overnight was 21:30 from Saint Pancras, sleeping cars from Nottingham. 22:50 Glasgow to Nottingham only in the up direction (Presumably the sleeping cars were removed and the seated coaches formed a Nottingham to Saint Pancras service later in the day, it just wasn't a through train in this direction.).

From the 1975-76 working timetable:

1S24 21:30 Saint Pancras to Glasgow, D315 to Nottingham, D455 onward
1S68 08:00 Saint Pancras to Glasgow D315
1M86 10:45 Glasgow to Saint Pancras D385
1M98 22:50 Glasgow to Nottingham D455

These all weekday times, but in 1974 the overnight ran Saturday and Sunday nights at 21:30 from Saint Pancras also, sleepers from Nottingham again, 07:47 into Glasgow except Sunday mornings when it was 08:33.

EDIT I only remember the Nottingham-Glasgow services, since I was too young to be travelling that far in 1974, but by 1997 I used them over the Leeds-Carlisle route.

PS You can buy PDF timetables at https://timetableworld.com/great-britain-railway-series/

 

[Cheshire Scot]

(Presumably the sleeping cars were removed and the seated coaches formed a Nottingham to Saint Pancras service later in the day, it just wasn't a through train in this direction.).

Correct,

I used both day and night services in the mid 70's. Staple motive power was class 45 although occasionally class 47, with loco changes during reversals at both Nottingham and Leeds on all of the trains - as stated the up overnight terminated at Nottingham and reached there via Derby which was not the regular routing for the other trains.

The night train conveyed a lot of mail and parcels traffic in both directions, in the up direction in addition to I think three vans from Glasgow, one was (attached front, by the train engine) at Kilmarnock and I think a further two at Carlisle (I think one of these came from Edinburgh). My recollection is some vans were detached at both Leeds and Sheffield, probably one at each (could be wrong here). In the down direction the vans were detached at Kilmarnock from where they formed a direct train to Salkeld St Parcels depot in Glasgow which would result in an earlier arrival than routing via Central.

Despite WCML electrification in 1974 both day and trains remained routed via GSW at that time although daytime changing at Carlisle provided a faster journey and not long afterwards the day train was diverted to run via Beattock with electric haulage north of Carlisle.

One feature of the daytime train was making a double stop at Settle due to the train being much longer than the platforms.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Thank you @jfollows . That's EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Do you happen to have the intervening pages which show the departure of the overnight service in 1974? It pops up at Derby, northbound conveying sleepers, but I can't see what time it left St P. And I can't see the the overnight southbound at all.

I'm sure I had that (quite thick) 1974 timetable book, but it's long lost.

 

[Roger1973]

From the 1975-76 working timetable:

1S24 21:30 Saint Pancras to Glasgow, D315 to Nottingham, D455 onward

What are the 'Dxxx' numbers in this context? Is it a (non TOPS) locomotive class, or the working / diagram number or something?

 

[HurdyGurdy]

EDIT I only remember the Nottingham-Glasgow services, since I was too young to be travelling that far in 1974, but by 1997 I used them over the Leeds-Carlisle route.

Shows my age then!

A trip on the Thames-Clyde, typically from Carlisle to Settle was a highlight of our NorthWest Rover travels in the 70's. Walk to Giggleswick for the train to Lancaster. I occasionally travelled on it to Nottingham, later in the 70's when I was an Uni, there.

I do remember taking the overnight train from St Pancras to Glasgow when I was a spotty youth on an ALR in 1974/5. Didn't realise the sleepers only attached at Nottingham at that time.

 

[hexagon789]

What are the 'Dxxx' numbers in this context? Is it a (non TOPS) locomotive class, or the working / diagram number or something?

Timing loads -

D for diesel
The figure is the trailing load in tonnes.

A carriage was assumed to be 35 tonnes, except sleepers which were treated as 40.

 

[jfollows]

Thank you @jfollows . That's EXACTLY what I was looking for.

Do you happen to have the intervening pages which show the departure of the overnight service in 1974? It pops up at Derby, northbound conveying sleepers, but I can't see what time it left St P. And I can't see the the overnight southbound at all.

I'm sure I had that (quite thick) 1974 timetable book, but it's long lost.

Attached are the pages covering the overnight services plus the Leeds-Carlisle services.
Dxxx are the timing loads, for the normal type of locomotive they represent the maximum tonnage in order to maintain the schedule, in this case essentially classes 45, 46 & 47, and tables enable conversion for other locomotive types. So, for example, D315 can be 210 tonnes (6 carriages) only with a class 40 but 315 tonnes (9 carriages) with a class 45, 46 or 47. In the case of the sleeper the timing load increases (so the train runs slower) with the addition of the sleepers at Nottingham.

 

[Rover]

In the early 70s I went to secondary school in Sheffield from Chesterfield and travelled back on the Thames-Clyde. I have vivid memories of it arriving on platform 8 by the wall and being "tapped" by the wheel tapper, that's something you don't hear anymore.

 

[Gloster]

I am not entirely sure, but the Dxxx numbers (D for diesel) were not the actual load, but the nominal load upon which the timings were calculated. I have a 1974 WTT covering north Wales which lists various equivalents. To take one partial example: for the Chester-Holyhead line a Class 40 had Timing Tonnages of D.385/.455/.600/.700 and for these all other classes from 20 to 52 were given equivalent tonnages. For D.385 they ran from 190 for a Class 20 to 580 for a Class 52, while the Class 33 was 230 for D.385, 365 for D.455, 480 for D.600 and 560 for D.700.

I think this is roughly correct, although it is not an area I dealt with. Others may know better.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Attached are the pages covering the overnight services plus the Leeds-Carlisle services.

Thanks again.

 

[jfollows]

I am not entirely sure, but the Dxxx numbers (D for diesel) were not the actual load, but the nominal load upon which the timings were calculated. I have a 1974 WTT covering north Wales which lists various equivalents. To take one partial example: for the Chester-Holyhead line a Class 40 had Timing Tonnages of D.385/.455/.600/.700 and for these all other classes from 20 to 52 were given equivalent tonnages. For D.385 they ran from 190 for a Class 20 to 580 for a Class 52, while the Class 33 was 230 for D.385, 365 for D.455, 480 for D.600 and 560 for D.700.

I think this is roughly correct, although it is not an area I dealt with. Others may know better.

I suspect our posts crossed, yes, I agree with you or I explained it badly above. The timing load usually indicated the maximum weight of the train for the schedule using normal motive power for the route - so class 40 for N. Wales route would work. For the WCML, for example, the tables reflected lower weight limits to keep to schedule if classes 81-85 were used instead of 86 or 87.

 

[Magdalia]

Could anyone here point me to timetables for the named Thames-Clyde Express, through service from St Pancras to Glasgow and v/v, in the period from 1974 to 1979?

The history of the daytime train is straightforward. It ran as a named train until May 1975 and then one more year as an un-named through train between St Pancras and Glasgow. The truncated Nottingham-Glasgow via the Settle and Carlisle then ran from May 1976 to May 1982, when it was diverted to run via Manchester.

I remember an overnight trip from St Pancras all the way to Glasgow at around that time (departing on a Sunday, in July, but not sure which year). I would definitely have been seated, but were sleeping cars still conveyed?

The night train is much more complicated. The sleepers ceased to run to/from St Pancras in May 1969, when the London terminus was switched to Euston. From May 1970 the train continued to run to/from Euston but the sleepers were only advertised from/to Northampton. The Euston experiment ended in May 1972 when the sleepers were only advertised between Nottingham and Glasgow. The down train had through seating accommodation from St Pancras but not the up train. The sleeping cars were withdrawn in May 1976. The night trains ran for one more year St Pancras-Glasgow and Glasgow-Nottingham with seats only, these finishing in May 1977.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

I have vivid memories of it arriving on platform 8 by the wall and being "tapped" by the wheel tapper, that's something you don't hear anymore.

Carlisle was a wheel-tapping hotspot.

Thanks for that added info.

From May 1970 the train continued to run to/from Euston but the sleepers were only advertised from/to Northampton.

That's BR marketing genius at play.

 

[Roger1973]

Timing loads -

Thanks. I have an idea I'd seen it before but hadn't given it much thought.

Dxxx are the timing loads, for the normal type of locomotive they represent the maximum tonnage in order to maintain the schedule, in this case essentially classes 45, 46 & 47, and tables enable conversion for other locomotive types. So, for example, D315 can be 210 tonnes (6 carriages) only with a class 40 but 315 tonnes (9 carriages) with a class 45, 46 or 47.

I am not entirely sure, but the Dxxx numbers (D for diesel) were not the actual load, but the nominal load upon which the timings were calculated.

Thanks - I think I understand...

 

[jfollows]

Thanks. I have an idea I'd seen it before but hadn't given it much thought.






Thanks - I think I understand...

Here's the maximum load table for Wellingborough to Clay Cross from the 1975-76 Section CK working timetable:

 

[70014IronDuke]

Correct,

I used both day and night services in the mid 70's. Staple motive power was class 45 although occasionally class 47, with loco changes during reversals at both Nottingham and Leeds on all of the trains - as stated the up overnight terminated at Nottingham and reached there via Derby which was not the regular routing for the other trains.

This was long the practice with the overnights, so providing a sleeper service from both Nottingham and Derby.

Despite WCML electrification in 1974 both day and trains remained routed via GSW at that time although daytime changing at Carlisle provided a faster journey and not long afterwards the day train was diverted to run via Beattock with electric haulage north of Carlisle.

This was probably true even pre-electric haulage via the Caledonian route - depending on the particular timetable in force at the time - but possibly even in steam days. It is a reflection of the genesis of the trains concerned - the Midland Railway teaming up with the Glasgow and South Western back in the 19th century, and the practice continuing into LMS and BR days. No doubt the unions would have fought any transfer to the Caledonian route - but in any case, Kilmarnock, Dumfries etc demanded some sort of service before the days of short, but relatively high-speed sprinters.

One feature of the daytime train was making a double stop at Settle due to the train being much longer than the platforms.

"Drawing up". I think it was regular practice for the (relatively) long TCE and overnight sleepers at both Settle and Appleby.

 

[edwin_m]

Carlisle was a wheel-tapping hotspot.

The only time I recall hearing a wheeltapper was at Carlisle too, must have been after 1978.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The only time I recall hearing a wheeltapper was at Carlisle too, must have been after 1978.

The M&EE staff in the Carlisle area were very good - had a bit to do with them in the late 1980's and their output was excellent - every single train through the main station was thoroughly examined and attention given - and the father / son team at Haredendale were there to deal the lime / stone traffics but kept a close eye on anything passing through and often went well above their job description when neccessary.

 

[Rescars]

The M&EE staff in the Carlisle area were very good - had a bit to do with them in the late 1980's and their output was excellent - every single train through the main station was thoroughly examined and attention given - and the father / son team at Haredendale were there to deal the lime / stone traffics but kept a close eye on anything passing through and often went well above their job description when neccessary.

Takes me back. I too recall hearing and seeing wheeltappers at Carlisle between 1979 and 1982. I don't recall encountering them anywhere else on the WCML.

 

[DarloRich]

The sleepers ceased to run to/from St Pancras in May 1969, when the London terminus was switched to Euston. From May 1970 the train continued to run to/from Euston but the sleepers were only advertised from/to Northampton.

running via the line from Northampton to Wellingborough or straight up the WCML?

 

[RT4038]

running via the line from Northampton to Wellingborough or straight up the WCML?

Northampton-Market Harborough line. Northampton-Wellingborough had been shut and lifted in '64.

 

[DarloRich]

Northampton-Market Harborough line

thanks - apologies - I meant market Market Harborough!

The Wellingborough line went in the 1960's I think

 

[Taunton]

Takes me back. I too recall hearing and seeing wheeltappers at Carlisle between 1979 and 1982. I don't recall encountering them anywhere else on the WCML.

Certainly the C&W Examiner at the station there seemed to do every train from when the Electric Scots started in 1974. Doing both Down and Up services, which stopped on opposite sides of the platform, all would be tested in turn. Has anyone ever heard a cracked tyre "tapped", to know the different sound?

and the father / son team at Haredendale were there to deal the lime / stone traffics but kept a close eye on anything passing through and often went well above their job description when necessary.

I saw a video of a lovely old chap in the USA, long-retired railroad lifer but had kept his trackside house, and still watched all the trains roll past, and gave the Highball (and doubtless occasionally the opposite) to the conductor at the rear, who presumably knew him and were looking out.

 

[jfollows]

Northampton-Market Harborough line. Northampton-Wellingborough had been shut and lifted in '64.

From https://www.branchline.uk/psul/1969-70.pdf

(Euston-Glasgow and return services shown using Market Harborough No. 3 to Northampton Castle No. 5.)

 

[Taunton]

Was there not an issue with the later withdrawal of the sleeper routed Northampton to Market Harborough, that some felt it required the full official closure procedure, although it served no stations anywhere near the line?

 

[RT4038]

Was there not an issue with the later withdrawal of the sleeper routed Northampton to Market Harborough, that some felt it required the full official closure procedure, although it served no stations anywhere near the line?

I certainly recall seeing an official closure notice posted at Market Harborough in the mid 70s, mentioning trains at (out of reach) obscure times of the morning and night!

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Carlisle to Settle was covered by Area 3 Runabout rover ticket. I used to take a pair of what are now called Class 50s, D400 series from Preston to Carlisle and then take the Peak ( Class 45) to Settle, cross over and take the return service. First ever Peak Haulage D60 Latham St Annes.

 

[Tester]

Was there not an issue with the later withdrawal of the sleeper routed Northampton to Market Harborough, that some felt it required the full official closure procedure, although it served no stations anywhere near the line?

Some time in the 70s I can recall seeing a 'Parliamentary' train from Northampton to Market Harborough shown in the LMR timetable book, departing at 00:01, on I think Mondays.

I went for it, to find no sign of it and station staff denying any knowledge. Fortunately I had a plan B!

I have subsequently walked the line, so that counts by my rules!

 

[AY1975]

Correct,

I used both day and night services in the mid 70's. Staple motive power was class 45 although occasionally class 47, with loco changes during reversals at both Nottingham and Leeds on all of the trains - as stated the up overnight terminated at Nottingham and reached there via Derby which was not the regular routing for the other trains.

The night train conveyed a lot of mail and parcels traffic in both directions, in the up direction in addition to I think three vans from Glasgow, one was (attached front, by the train engine) at Kilmarnock and I think a further two at Carlisle (I think one of these came from Edinburgh). My recollection is some vans were detached at both Leeds and Sheffield, probably one at each (could be wrong here). In the down direction the vans were detached at Kilmarnock from where they formed a direct train to Salkeld St Parcels depot in Glasgow which would result in an earlier arrival than routing via Central.

I would guess that at least latterly it was formed mainly of mail and parcels vans with just one or two sleeping cars and a few ordinary seated coaches.

I wonder how the used laundry from the southbound sleeper was dealt with during the period when the sleeping cars only ran north of Nottingham. My guess would be that it would have been bagged up and sent back to Glasgow on the following night's northbound train and then dealt with at Polmadie.