• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Thameslink City station - slopes at either side; any others? (trivia)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Howardh

Established Member
Joined
17 May 2011
Messages
9,111
On Tuesday I was standing at the platform there and noticed how steep the gradients were into and out of the station including the far ends of the platforms, the majority of the platform (central) is flat of course. So the long trains - what they lose on trying to leave they gain from the push going down at the other end!

Are there any other stations where there's a slope in and out with the flat bit in the middle, so the platforms have to slope at both sides?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

vic-rijrode

Member
Joined
31 Aug 2016
Messages
340
On Tuesday I was standing at the platform there and noticed how steep the gradients were into and out of the station including the far ends of the platforms, the majority of the platform (central) is flat of course. So the long trains - what they lose on trying to leave they gain from the push going down at the other end!

Are there any other stations where there's a slope in and out with the flat bit in the middle, so the platforms have to slope at both sides?
The Central London Railway (now the Central Line) was built with an upward slope into the platforms and a downward slope out of them to assist with braking and accelerating.
 

Eskimo

Member
Joined
14 Jul 2020
Messages
93
Location
Leicester
Stratford International platforms.

Pretty surreal watching passing trains ‘come up for air’.
 

snowball

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2013
Messages
8,111
Location
Leeds
I thought a lot of stations on the London underground were deliberately designed to be on summits, to help trains to slow down on the approach to the station and accelerate away again while reducing electricity consumption and brake wear.
 

D365

Veteran Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
12,144
I thought a lot of stations on the London underground were deliberately designed to be on summits, to help trains to slow down on the approach to the station and accelerate away again while reducing electricity consumption and brake wear.
Yes. The Victoria line probably being most famous for it.
 

Bald Rick

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Sep 2010
Messages
32,012
I thought a lot of stations on the London underground were deliberately designed to be on summits, to help trains to slow down on the approach to the station and accelerate away again while reducing electricity consumption and brake wear.

the cofiguration is also so the running tunnels were deep enough to keep out of the way of other built ‘obstructions’, but that the stations are closer to the surface to minimise the amount of excavation to get to them and also reduce the time it takes passengers to get to/from street level.

Crossrail2 was largely designed on the same basis.
 

John Webb

Established Member
Joined
5 Jun 2010
Messages
3,443
Location
St Albans
Stratford International platforms.

Pretty surreal watching passing trains ‘come up for air’.
The older Central Line platforms at Stratford do something similar to achieve level platforms between them and the local Liverpool St services
 

172007

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2021
Messages
877
Location
West Mids
Birmingham Snow Hill slopes up on entry into the platforms, most noticeable on platform 3. Central 100 meters is flat.
 

A0

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,751
Farringdon - very noticeable at the north end.
 

iphone76

Member
Joined
6 Nov 2010
Messages
963
Location
South Essex
On Tuesday I was standing at the platform there and noticed how steep the gradients were into and out of the station including the far ends of the platforms, the majority of the platform (central) is flat of course. So the long trains - what they lose on trying to leave they gain from the push going down at the other end!

Are there any other stations where there's a slope in and out with the flat bit in the middle, so the platforms have to slope at both sides?
Most of the new crossrail platforms
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
3,200
Location
Lancashire
Most tube lines were designed that way (sawtooth) for the reasons already m3ntioned ( reduced brake wear and free assistance with acceleration out of the platform.
 

DerekC

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2015
Messages
2,287
Location
Hampshire (nearly a Hog)
Farringdon - very noticeable at the north end.
The reason for the gradient on the Thameslink route at Farringdon, though, is to get underneath the Met and Circle at the Ray Street Gridiron. Presumably built that way so that the City Widened Lines could be on the north side of the Circle at Kings Cross and St Pancras, enabling the links to the Great Northern and Midland to run in.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
15,220
Location
St Albans
Yes. The Victoria line probably being most famous for it.
I think most of the Central line stations in Zone 1 have arrival and departure incline assitance, I remember seeing an article decades ago that described it as a first on the deep tubes.
 

AlbertBeale

Established Member
Joined
16 Jun 2019
Messages
3,188
Location
London
I think most of the Central line stations in Zone 1 have arrival and departure incline assitance, I remember seeing an article decades ago that described it as a first on the deep tubes.

Except Holborn, where the station was added 25 years or so after the line was opened - the station originally having been a few hundred yards further west (British Museum); the site of the latter still has the rise and fall of the tunnel as you go through.
 

Ken H

Established Member
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,584
Location
N Yorks
When the lengthened the platforms on the Central Line the gradients in and out of the plarforms was a problem. They had to make level platform tracks and steeper gradients i think. Central line is 8 cars. The other old tubes are 7.
 

MarkyT

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2012
Messages
6,899
Location
Torbay
The steep gradient between Blackfriars and City Thameslink was necessary to reroute the line beneath Ludgate Hill. It had previously passed over the road on a bridge, blocking the view of St Pauls Cathedral. Putting the station underground allowed lucrative new developments above it.
 

stuu

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2011
Messages
3,403
When the lengthened the platforms on the Central Line the gradients in and out of the plarforms was a problem. They had to make level platform tracks and steeper gradients i think. Central line is 8 cars. The other old tubes are 7.
There is at least 1 station with a notable gradient at the end of the platform, possibly Notting Hill Gate
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
15,220
Location
St Albans
There is at least 1 station with a notable gradient at the end of the platform, possibly Notting Hill Gate
I used to use Tottenham Court Road station a lot and there the extended platform at the western end of the eastbound platform showed a clear drop. Trains approaching could not be seen from the opposite end until they are nearly in the station.
 

Brooke

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2020
Messages
287
Location
Switzerland
Don’t most Tube stations work the opposite way to City Thameslink?

Unless I mis-remember, at City Thameslink, the back of the train ‘pushes’ the rest of the train as it sets off up the hill. Whereas on most Tube stations, the front of the train ‘pulls’ the rest away down the hill as it sets off.

(Obviously the Tube setup is more efficient and the Thameslink one only comes about by coincidence due to the geography and need to get down for buildings to be built on top)

Are there other stations with a steep down into the station and then back up the other side to get away?
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
11,101
The reason for the gradient on the Thameslink route at Farringdon, though, is to get underneath the Met and Circle at the Ray Street Gridiron. Presumably built that way so that the City Widened Lines could be on the north side of the Circle at Kings Cross and St Pancras, enabling the links to the Great Northern and Midland to run in.
The surprising thing at Farringdon is there used to be, in freight train days, a banking loco to help push southbound freights up the hill to Ludgate Hill. But the banking loco spur, the site of which is still visible, was immediately beyond the west end of the Farringdon platforms, so the climb up from Ray Street was not covered. I would think if the freight loco could manage that climb up (which looks about 1 in 30), then it could manage the continuation to Ludgate Hill.

This long climb is only to get up to the level of the river bridge. Is Farringdon (or Ray Street) below river level? I did read that Ray Street, quite apart from the recent water main burst there, was a regular point for flooding; the Underground kept one of their old steam locos on long term, fitted with a steam pump, to come and pump out floodwater, principally there.

Long ago, possibly Victorian times, the promoters of a notably undulating railway scheme argued in Parliament that the ups and the downs just cancelled each other out, so the effort required was the same as if level. The committee chairman then observed dryly that therefore the Scottish Highlands must be excellent territory to build a railway across.

Are there other stations with a steep down into the station and then back up the other side to get away?
Totnes sort of qualifies, steeply down Dainton Bank into the station, then equally steeply up Rattery Bank the other side. Inevitably, for non-stop trains, both are quite notably curved. Apparently on a Warship taking this at speed it was something like a Disneyland ride.
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
32,815
This long climb is only to get up to the level of the river bridge. Is Farringdon (or Ray Street) below river level? I did read that Ray Street, quite apart from the recent water main burst there, was a regular point for flooding; the Underground kept one of their old steam locos on long term, fitted with a steam pump, to come and pump out floodwater, principally there.
Farringdon platforms are about 4m below local street level of 11m, so about 7m above sea level, so the bottom of the Ray Street diveunder could be getting pretty near sea level.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
20,541
Location
Airedale
The surprising thing at Farringdon is there used to be, in freight train days, a banking loco to help push southbound freights up the hill to Ludgate Hill. But the banking loco spur, the site of which is still visible, was immediately beyond the west end of the Farringdon platforms, so the climb up from Ray Street was not covered. I would think if the freight loco could manage that climb up (which looks about 1 in 30), then it could manage the continuation to Ludgate Hill.
My guess is that momentum helped with Ray Street, but I doubt if it would have been enough to get to Holborn even with an unchecked run through Farringdon - and you'd want the road right through to beyond Ludgate Hill so as not to risk getting stopped on the bank.
 

181

Member
Joined
12 Feb 2013
Messages
865
Farringdon platforms are about 4m below local street level of 11m, so about 7m above sea level, so the bottom of the Ray Street diveunder could be getting pretty near sea level.
That's probably mean sea level; high tide level in the Thames will be somewhat higher (and the Fleet at Farringdon may be higher still).
 

edwin_m

Veteran Member
Joined
21 Apr 2013
Messages
26,612
Location
Nottingham
Don’t most Tube stations work the opposite way to City Thameslink?

Unless I mis-remember, at City Thameslink, the back of the train ‘pushes’ the rest of the train as it sets off up the hill. Whereas on most Tube stations, the front of the train ‘pulls’ the rest away down the hill as it sets off.

(Obviously the Tube setup is more efficient and the Thameslink one only comes about by coincidence due to the geography and need to get down for buildings to be built on top)

Are there other stations with a steep down into the station and then back up the other side to get away?
A train starting out from City Thameslink might get a bit of help from the back being on the descending gradient, as long as it was occupying the whole platform length. Assuming the gradients at each end are the same, it would be like starting on level track. However, once it had gone a couple of coach lengths, the rear of the train would be onto the level(ish) part of the platforms so any such assistance would disappear and it would face an increasingly hard slog as more of it got onto the gradient at the departure end. Also worth noting that a train arriving would have to brake earlier, so as to control its speed on the descent to the platforms.

By contrast, a level platform with gradients up on the approach and down on departure helps the train decelerate better on approach and accelerate better on departure.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top