Thameslink Class 700 - lack of USB/power facilities

[Goldfish62]

cant charge a laptop off USB. Well not mine.

Apparently some you can, but I assume they're only low spec ones. I've certainly never come across USB chargeable laptops myself. They must take ages to charge.

 

[Failed Unit]

cant charge a laptop off USB. Well not mine.

A lot are USB-C now. But I think the 3 pin plug will remain king. Unless USB-C doesn’t break as much.

 

[Bletchleyite]

cant charge a laptop off USB. Well not mine.

Newer ones you can, provided it's powerful enough (these probably aren't). Not just cheap ones, premium ones too - just having several USB-C ports for multiple purposes is now the way. My Dell XPS-13 (not cheap) just has 3 of these and no other ports.

A lot are USB-C now. But I think the 3 pin plug will remain king. Unless USB-C doesn’t break as much.

The thing about the 3-pin plug is that it's futureproof - it is in so many homes it will not go away.

 

[Failed Unit]

Apparently some you can, but I assume they're only low spec ones. I've certainly never come across USB chargeable laptops myself. They must take ages to charge.

The MacBooks are, this one is as well. USB-C can deliver 45W (apparently)

 

[Ken H]

Newer ones you can, provided it's powerful enough (these probably aren't). Not just cheap ones, premium ones too - just having several USB-C ports for multiple purposes is now the way.



The thing about the 3-pin plug is that it's futureproof - it is in so many homes it will not go away.

I would install twin 13a sockets with incorporated usb outlets. Every possibility covered. But more expensive than just USB.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The MacBooks are, this one is as well. USB-C can deliver 45W (apparently)

45W on my Dell XPS13 via USB-C. Though if you want to distribute that to every seat you're going to need some hefty wiring, there's a reason mains is not distributed at 5VDC.

I've not tried plugging the PSU into my phone but I bet it'd get a quick charge if I did!

I guess the thing about a 3-pin socket and no USBs is that a 3-pin charger is no easier to carry than a power bank. So might as well carry the latter which is usable anywhere.

 

[supervc-10]

USB-C can do more than just 45W- up to 100W is in the spec for USB-PD.
My phone charger will put out 65W to my phone, and up to 45W to any USB Power Delivery device, so it can charge my laptop too, although not as fast as the 65W power brick my laptop came with. It's very handy for when on the go as one charger can charge everything.

However- I can't see high-power USB-PD sockets becoming common just now on trains. I'd imagine standard 3-pin sockets, possibly with USB-A or USB-C sockets, are the best way to go just now.

 

[Mikey C]

I got the argument about the fear of tables getting people all tangled up when travelling in the core. I am not sure it turned out to be such a problem after all, but there was logic to it. In the core, the train is more like a tube train and having someone on the aisle seat setup with a laptop on a table (potentially plugged in too!) could make it hard for the person with the window seat to get out.

You'd imagine that the number of people going through the core working away on a laptop will be minimal. The vast majority of people will be getting off at/between St Pancras and London Bridge, so would be happy to start packing away before those stations are reached.

 

[AM9]

45W on my Dell XPS13 via USB-C. Though if you want to distribute that to every seat you're going to need some hefty wiring, there's a reason mains is not distributed at 5VDC.

Actually the latest USB power spec allows up to 100W but in providing that, the recipient device needs to accept up to 5A at 20V. I presume that the Dell devices don't expect to get 45W as a 22.5A 5V supply, the pins and the USB cable would be pretty thick if it did. Your point about wiring every seat with a 45W (or 100W) supply still holds. It would be ridiculously expensive and heavy on cable providing 3.6kW (or 8kW for 100A) per car just so that the few who wanted to charge their laptop would be gauranteed it at any available seat.
The whole thing could get quite expensive for those who just want to use the train to get from A to B.

You'd imagine that the number of people going through the core working away on a laptop will be minimal. The vast majority of people will be getting off at/between St Pancras and London Bridge, so would be happy to start packing away before those stations are reached.

In my experience it doesn't always work like that. Just as in the days of everybody reading their newspaper when there was frequently one who insisted on finishing the article of crossword before they folded things up, especially if they weren't getting off at that stop. There's going to the those who haven't disconnected their charging cable as the doors open. People (including commuters) aren't all well organised or considerate of others.

 

[jon0844]

Apparently some you can, but I assume they're only low spec ones. I've certainly never come across USB chargeable laptops myself. They must take ages to charge.

You can put 65W and 100W through USB-C today, and 200+ Watts soon. The spec is always evolving, but remains backwardly compatible. All manufacturers, including Apple, will support USB-PD which really needs to become the one true standard (which is slowly happening as phone makers in particular continue with their own proprietary standards but also include USB-PD too, perhaps at a lower power rating but still what many would consider fast).

You really don't need to carry a bulky power adapter to transform the power from 240V down to 12V (or 5V or whatever the device negotiates) when it can be integrated within the train instead. There's no reason it couldn't be capped at 45 or 65W, which will be perfectly quick for most people (a phone charged from ZERO in about 30 minutes) and a laptop given a pretty substantial boost if not fully charged.

You'd imagine that the number of people going through the core working away on a laptop will be minimal. The vast majority of people will be getting off at/between St Pancras and London Bridge, so would be happy to start packing away before those stations are reached.

I agree, but I think the DfT was preparing for the worse case scenario. It's also pretty hard to predict exact usage patterns, especially as more people are drawn to Thameslink as a nicer way to get through London than using the alternative Tube options.

The service frequency was planned to be pretty intense compared to any other rail service, with everything designed to minimise delays and grind everything to a halt with huge impacts on the mainlines the core then goes on to serve. The pandemic means we may be waiting some years to actually implement the full service as once pictured, if it happens at all.

Aren't the LO trains with power points designed to have them in locations where they won't cause issues when in use?

 

[43096]

45W on my Dell XPS13 via USB-C. Though if you want to distribute that to every seat you're going to need some hefty wiring, there's a reason mains is not distributed at 5VDC.

I've not tried plugging the PSU into my phone but I bet it'd get a quick charge if I did!

I guess the thing about a 3-pin socket and no USBs is that a 3-pin charger is no easier to carry than a power bank. So might as well carry the latter which is usable anywhere.

The thing about USBs though is that the standard keeps changing, with different connectors. So for users it would be a case of carrying multiple cables for whichever train/socket combination you're on. The 3-pin is standard and isn't going anywhere any time soon - far easier for the TOCs to avoid the obsolescence issue by going with the 3-pin standard socket, and everyone who has a phone that needs charging will have a 3-pin charger.

 

[AM9]

You can put 65W and 100W through USB-C today, and 200+ Watts soon. The spec is always evolving, but remains backwardly compatible. All manufacturers, including Apple, will support USB-PD which really needs to become the one true standard (which is slowly happening as phone makers in particular continue with their own proprietary standards but also include USB-PD too, perhaps at a lower power rating but still what many would consider fast).

You really don't need to carry a bulky power adapter to transform the power from 240V down to 12V (or 5V or whatever the device negotiates) when it can be integrated within the train instead. There's no reason it couldn't be capped at 45 or 65W, which will be perfectly quick for most people (a phone charged from ZERO in about 30 minutes) and a laptop given a pretty substantial boost if not fully charged.





I agree, but I think the DfT was preparing for the worse case scenario. It's also pretty hard to predict exact usage patterns, especially as more people are drawn to Thameslink as a nicer way to get through London than using the alternative Tube options.

The service frequency was planned to be pretty intense compared to any other rail service, with everything designed to minimise delays and grind everything to a halt with huge impacts on the mainlines the core then goes on to serve. The pandemic means we may be waiting some years to actually implement the full service as once pictured, if it happens at all.

Aren't the LO trains with power points designed to have them in locations where they won't cause issues when in use?

There was the case when a passenger on a class 378 plugged a charger into a socket marked 'Not for public use' (or somethging like that). Apart from being in a hazardous location almost at floor level by the doors, the socket used wasn't on a protected 230V source but tapped off the main transformer. It was intended to be used by cleaners and workers whilst the trains were stabled, but if used whilst on the move, there could have been surges way outside the limits that consumer producte were designed to handle. Which LO trains are you referring to?

 

[JonathanH]

Which LO trains are you referring to?

Class 710s have USB sockets at the carriage ends but they are very underpowered and make the battery go down rather than up when I have tried to use them.

 

[AM9]

Class 710s have USB sockets at the carriage ends but they are very underpowered and make the battery go down rather than up when I have tried to use them.

Ah, OK. That would imply that they are drawing power from the phone battery.

 

[Envy123]

I agree, but I think the DfT was preparing for the worse case scenario. It's also pretty hard to predict exact usage patterns, especially as more people are drawn to Thameslink as a nicer way to get through London than using the alternative Tube options.

Also, it encouraged me and a few others to move to places like Biggleswade and Huntingdon, because of the new direct services to our workplace near Farringdon.

 

[Steve Harris]

I find the 700s adequate on a Cambridge - London jaunt and would pick one (assuming I can nab a seat in the declassified first class) over the 387s they operate alongside simply as they ride so much better.

Well that's a contradiction. If "they" were adequate why would you need to nab a seat in declassified first class ?? If you "need" to nab a seat in declassified first class then clearly their not "adequate" !!!

 

[CBlue]

Well that's a contradiction. If "they" were adequate why would you need to nab a seat in declassified first class ?? If you "need" to nab a seat in declassified first class then clearly their not "adequate" !!!

They are adequate assuming you can get a better seat in the declassified first class - which is better when compared to the 387s they run alongside. I'm not sure what part of that wasn't clear, with all respect - I guess I have a tendancy to go on a bit.

 

[jfowkes]

They are adequate assuming you can get a better seat in the declassified first class - which is better when compared to the 387s they run alongside. I'm not sure what part of that wasn't clear but I make no apology for your inability to read my post properly. The addition of the exclamation marks at the end of your response doesn't give your point further weight, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to convey here.

"Adequate as long as you get one of the few seats that are actually adequate" is a pretty long winded way of saying "mostly inadequate".

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah, OK. That would imply that they are drawing power from the phone battery.

Well, sometimes the units need a bit of a boost.

 

[CBlue]

"Adequate as long as you get one of the few seats that are actually adequate" is a pretty long winded way of saying "mostly inadequate".

My apologies, I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to get across here. If it's that you don't like the way I write posts, that's completely fine - please feel free to ignore them in future.

Anyway, we're getting a little outwith the subject matter here, no?


I agree one glaring omission with the 700s is definitely the lack of seatback tables. I don't really fancy having to balance a red hot coffee cup in between my legs or on the seat next to me if i've also bought, say, a sandwich from the platform shops.

 

[Steve Harris]

Slightly OT but - the reason why Kings Lynn was a branch is as I recall the majority of Liverpool St services terminated at Cambridge (there may have been a couple of 'peak hours' extensions to Kings Lynn) but the bulk of it was DMU shuttle. In those days Cambridge wasn't wired from either Bishops Stortford or Royston, so there was also DMU shuttles between Cambridge and those two - and there were no through Cambridge - Kings X services.

On your second point about "downgrade" - not sure I agree with 2 of those. Can't really comment on Portsmouth.

In Kings Lynn's case it received a couple of loco hauled services a day plus DMUs. When it was wired it then received Class 317s doing through runs to Kings Cross, then 365s and now Electrostars. So it's gone from old Mk2s, to 3+2 EMU, to two 2+2 EMUs.

@AOwen, can you tell me what years your talking about here please ??

As my recollection is vastly different from yours.. For instance there used to be direct Kings Cross - Cambridge service before the GN suburban electrification scheme (Toffee Apple Class 31's), then it went to 312's KX - Royston and a Craven's DMU (Class 105) Royston - Cambridge. Then 105's being upgraded to Met Camm 101's in the early/mid 80's (typically 2tph apart from Sundays). Followed by electrification and through services with Class 317's.

As for Liverpool Street - Kings Lynn.. in the 80's Kings Lynn had a lot more than "a couple of peak hour extensions", in fact, in the evening there used to be 2 services in 1 hour direct from Liv St to Lynn!

Typically there was a Cambridge - Lynn service every other hour, with it being a 105 or 101 DMU or more typically the Mark 2's running through from London Liv St. (If memory serves me right there was approx 3 DMU services each to Lynn, the rest loco hauled. Which is polar opposite from your statment. And just for clarity I used to literally live on Cambridge station in the 80's, and have seen the above services with my own eyes, and can literally tell you what electric heated and non heated Stratford 47's hauled them!!)

On Sunday mornings we used to get Air Conditioned Mark 2's (e's or f's I think) between Liv St and Ely (thence onto Norwich).

When eletrification reached Cambridge from Stortford we had Class 86's between Liv St and Cambridge (Calling Audley End and Tottenham Hale Only), with alternate hour services changing to a Class 47 onward to Kings Lynn, and that was just off peak !!

With Class 305 and Class 308 EMU's starting to cover the slower all stations service between Liv St and Cambridge. The local rag wrote a story on how the local commuters were in uproar of the downgrading of the service from Mark 2 coaches with tables and 2 toilets to each coach to 3+2 seating and 2 toilets for 4 coach's.

Of course what followed was the eletrification to Lynn and the swapping of the off peak services to Kings Cross with a handleful of extensions from Liv St to Lynn. All Class 317's of course.

They are adequate assuming you can get a better seat in the declassified first class - which is better when compared to the 387s they run alongside. I'm not sure what part of that wasn't clear but I make no apology for your inability to read my post properly. The addition of the exclamation marks at the end of your response doesn't give your point further weight, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to convey here.

Nope, I don't suffer from any inabilities and I read your post properly. It contradicts itself !!

 

[bramling]

My apologies, I'm not quite sure what point you're trying to get across here. If it's that you don't like the way I write posts, that's completely fine - please feel free to ignore them in future.

Anyway, we're getting a little outwith the subject matter here, no?


I agree one glaring omission with the 700s is definitely the lack of seatback tables. I don't really fancy having to balance a red hot coffee cup in between my legs or on the seat next to me if i've also bought, say, a sandwich from the platform shops.

You said that you’d pick a 700 over a 387 so long as you could bag a seat in declassified first. By implication it seems to, therefore, follow that if you were unable to get in declassified first then you’d prefer to use a 387 instead.

 

[jon0844]

You said that you’d pick a 700 over a 387 so long as you could bag a seat in declassified first. By implication it seems to, therefore, follow that if you were unable to get in declassified first then you’d prefer to use a 387 instead.

If you can get a seat on a 387, it's better than a 700. However, it's not a nice environment when busy compared to a 700.

When 387s were running many of the Cambridge stoppers before May, they were extremely busy and uncomfortable between London and Stevenage (more so to Hatfield). 700s are much better for social distancing, but could possibly be overkill when things properly open up.

That said, even 700s are getting busy at certain times of the day - especially weekends when the sun is out!

 

[gallafent]

45W on my Dell XPS13 via USB-C. Though if you want to distribute that to every seat you're going to need some hefty wiring, there's a reason mains is not distributed at 5VDC.

These days USB will go up to 20V for the higher-powered modes though [1], so I reckon that the 45W for your notebook is delivered at 15V or 20V DC, not 5V — but yes, definitely not sensible to wire coaches with USB … definitely better just to wire them for 230V 50Hz AC, with standard BS 1363 sockets, as a start.

USB-C as the main/only charging port has definitely been a standard for quite a while now for decent notebook computers in my experience, one that I was using in a recent role (ThinkPad P52s) which came to market in the first half of 2018 I think, already charged through one of its USB-C ports (meaning that you could have just the one cable between the computer and the dock when using it at your desk, carrying power and also video for external monitor, USB for mouse and big keyboard, etc. … really neat).

[1] https://www.androidauthority.com/usb-power-delivery-806266/

 

[Recessio]

There was the case when a passenger on a class 378 plugged a charger into a socket marked 'Not for public use' (or somethging like that). Apart from being in a hazardous location almost at floor level by the doors, the socket used wasn't on a protected 230V source but tapped off the main transformer. It was intended to be used by cleaners and workers whilst the trains were stabled, but if used whilst on the move, there could have been surges way outside the limits that consumer producte were designed to handle. Which LO trains are you referring to?

I remember being warned by a guard on Southern that they didn't mind me using the socket (it was a late service on a quiet line) by the doors on an Electrostar, but not to be plugged in for too long, as the sockets were designed for hoovers, not charging.

Anyway more on topic, would it really be hard to retrofit a 3-Pin in the dual facing seats (where tables would be on other units), and put at least a USB-A for every seat? I've seen buses with USBs in the seats for years for christ's sakes, surely a modern train running off a power supply (c.f. the diesel engine on the bus) could handle USB sockets in the seat backs.

 

[AM9]

I remember being warned by a guard on Southern that they didn't mind me using the socket (it was a late service on a quiet line) by the doors on an Electrostar, but not to be plugged in for too long, as the sockets were designed for hoovers, not charging.

Anyway more on topic, would it really be hard to retrofit a 3-Pin in the dual facing seats (where tables would be on other units), and put at least a USB-A for every seat? I've seen buses with USBs in the seats for years for christ's sakes, surely a modern train running off a power supply (c.f. the diesel engine on the bus) could handle USB sockets in the seat backs.

Would it "really be hard to retrofit a 3-Pin in the dual facing seats etc." well no provided there is a hard mounting point and provision to route wiring across to wherever it would enter the bodyof the cars. But, to retrofit that in every train would involve withdrawing each train from service, accommodating it in a suitable workshop, removing the affected seats, fitting the seat modification, modifying the hotel services wiring, refitting the seats that had been removed including connecting their new wiring, safety testing the new installations, and then returning the train into service. Maybe three days, possibly a week per train, (somebody here probably has a better idea of the time that it would take) so allowing for disruption, that would mean at least two years of managing trains into and out of a workshop alongside keeping the planned high utilitsation of the fleet without disruption to passengers who just want to use the trains to get from A to B (yes I know it's inconsiderate of them ).
If it is decided that giving office power to passengers is worth the cost, it will be done in a major refurb or even a mid-life update, so 2030 onwards it might get done. Until then, all passengers can manage their portable equipment power 'needs' either by ensuring that items are suitably charged for their expected use, or a portable charger (battery) can be carried. No need to disrupt the majority of passengers that way.

 

[Aictos]

Until then, all passengers can manage their portable equipment power 'needs' either by ensuring that items are suitably charged for their expected use, or a portable charger (battery) can be carried. No need to disrupt the majority of passengers that way.

Or simply investing in a mobile phone that has decent battery life like the iPhone 11, Motorola G 5G etc.. phones that actually last a full day without having to visit a power socket.

If that fails then as well as battery packs, you can also get battery cases for your phone which is simply a case that also acts as a battery which are very useful indeed I had one for my iPhone 6S which helped when I wasn't able to use a battery pack or a power socket.

The battery case can often add up to 150% more battery life to the phone at the expense of making the phone a tad more heavier but for some, the extra weight is worth it to have a phone that lasts all day without having to use a power socket.

As to the Class 700s, it's too far in the future to guess what the refurbishment will be like.

 

[AM9]

... As to the Class 700s, it's too far in the future to guess what the refurbishment will be like.

My feeling too but @Recessio seems to think that his access to on-board power was urgent, so I just mentioned the earliest likely time that he could see it if it was to be at all.

 

[Bikeman78]

If it was up to me - it isn’t - commuter trains wouldn’t have ‘charger’ power on them, even at refurb. Nor WiFi. Why? Because it does cost money to provide and maintain, and it’s something else to go wrong - for passengers to think bad of the railway. Keep it simple.

I think you're flogging a dead horse there. Pacers had WiFi, even buses have it now. I signed up for a cheaper phone contract with a small data allowance simply because WiFi is so common. Ironically, the 317s that the 700s partially replaced had WiFi fitted almost as soon as they moved to Greater Anglia.

 

[Ianno87]

I think you're flogging a dead horse there. Pacers had WiFi, even buses have it now. I signed up for a cheaper phone contract with a small data allowance simply because WiFi is so common. Ironically, the 317s that the 700s partially replaced had WiFi fitted almost as soon as they moved to Greater Anglia.

Difference will be the different contractual issues involved with ex-BR fleets, and trains via more recent methods of procurement; it would be, in effect, a contractual scope change to the Class 700 procurement. Which means different £££ cost of fitment and maintenance, for the same level of benefits.