Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[jopsuk]

At peak times there will be lots of "extras" from the GN in/out of Kings Cross- though don't get excited and start proposing extra long distance services until you can find funding for a second viaduct and associated tunnels at Welwyn!

 

[swt_passenger]

The ECML ITT published in March already does allow for a nearly 25% increase in ECML services following Thameslink and IEP full roll out by 2020, as we discussed in this thread at the time:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98239

So I'd suggest the DfT already have a bit of an idea how they are going to use the platform space freed up by the loss of most GN services over the course of the day.

Then if the 'GN peak extras' are all 12 car trains, (which I think is a reasonable assumption at this stage), then perhaps the suburban platforms will become dedicated to the open access operators?

 

[Class377/5]

I spend 40 minutes every morning going to work and 40 minutes going back on these trains - I'd like to be able to use that time productively doing emails (work and personal) or spreadsheets etc. In the new trains I cannot see my self being able to open a computer to do that and thus the journey becomes time wasting.

You don't need a table to do that. I can do all that on a handheld tablet.

The alternative is to match the trains to the route and the 700's are not match to Cambridge to London or Haywards Heath to London requirements. If they are needed to be short distance metro services because of the core then that's what they should be.

They aren't short distance metro trains.

Then how did GOVIA win with such a bad bid??? If the service was inappropriate then surely the DfT should have binned it.

Bad bid is purely your opinion.

The long distance aspect of Thameslink has been there from it's first proposals of Thameslink even before it was Thameslink 2000. Somewhere along the line it was turned into a metro railway using technology in the core which wasn't imagined when it was first proposed. The impact of this should be though through.

Really? I disagree as BR planned 24tph from these destinations so your points false.

You probably know better than me, but even so the load factor surely is such that the bulk load (i.e. to/from London) should prevail in the design.

The problem is your suggestion is too simple. You don't have one single overriding passenger group, hence you need to address the needs of multiple groups.

Then why do I and others have to do it for 40 minutes from Victoria to Redhill quite often. Although I am wise to that now and get to Victoria early to get a seat, and when I do I watch a Gatwick/Brighton train leave 7 minutes earlier from the next platform and see the empty seats every day.

Doesn't change the fact that you called Brighton trains lightly loaded when they have standing passengers from Haywards Heath. Tye Gatwick peak trains often have some long standing time plus the express nature making them seem less appealing. I'm assuming from your post you believe the Brighton trains are lightly loaded because you've looked at the GatEx trains leaving Victoria to inform your opinion?

To be honest I hope I am proved wrong but I dislike the design of the standard class seating immensely as I know I will be crushed up to the guy next to me in a very uncomfortable way - yes we will fit just but we will be touching each other and be effected by every movement of each other for 40 minutes, and personally I don't find that nice!

Hopefully you'll find a spot on the finished units that satisfies your needs.

Who knows though I may get a big pay rise and go in first class

Good luck with that!

 

[southern442]

Who knows though I may get a big pay rise and go in first class

Luckily for me I normally only use FCC on the Sutton loop so I should get a seat in first class anyway (providing they will still declassify it)

 

[AM9]

Luckily for me I normally only use FCC on the Sutton loop so I should get a seat in first class anyway (providing they will still declassify it)

Will the 8-car units have a first class area?

 

[Minstral25]

You don't need a table to do that. I can do all that on a handheld tablet.

You can input and copy data to a spreadsheet one handed as you use your second hand to hold the tablet up. I salute your skills but I am a bit more ordinary and can't do that.

By the way where do you hold your coffee whilst you do that? I like a coffee on the train whilst I work too.

They aren't short distance metro trains.

Exactly my point, they are not short distance metro trains so why do they have short distance metro style interiors.

Bad bid is purely your opinion.

I was being flippant, I thoroughly respect what Southern has done and am looking forward to more of the same from Govia. It's a shame they have been handicapped by a probably excellent train that has an interior designed by time and motion experts rather than designers.

Have you also noticed that the Windows cannot be looked out of if you are standing up (not that there is many of them either) - another design fault from the passenger perspective

Really? I disagree as BR planned 24tph from these destinations so your points false.

I don't think my point is false as you said yourself that the design constraints are for 32 trains per hour in case of disruption. So at some point the plan became to squeeze more trains in for this purpose and then the need for Metro style interiors became paramount. I doubt that the engineers in the 1980's thought that.

It is a great concept that has been brought together over many years and it is one small part that I disagree with. The train interiors designed badly for the passengers who will be on the trains the most.

The problem is your suggestion is too simple. You don't have one single overriding passenger group, hence you need to address the needs of multiple groups.

In the peak I'd disagree with you from my observations.

Doesn't change the fact that you called Brighton trains lightly loaded when they have standing passengers from Haywards Heath. Tye Gatwick peak trains often have some long standing time plus the express nature making them seem less appealing. I'm assuming from your post you believe the Brighton trains are lightly loaded because you've looked at the GatEx trains leaving Victoria to inform your opinion?

This evening I caught the 18:51 Victoria to Redhill from platform 15 at Victoria. Next to us on Platform 14 was the 18:44 Gatwick Express to Brighton. I could see that most coaches on the Brighton trains had about 60% of seats full. (well not the two nearest the barriers as they past me at high speed so hard to judge)

When the 18:51 departed in my coach, there were so many people standing they spread down the aisle - at Clapham Junction more got on. I counted the people standing as we pulled into Redhill and there was 20 people still standing, having reduced standees at East Croydon, Coulsdon South and Merstham.

The 18:44 takes 42 minutes to Haywards Heath, the 18:51 takes 9 minutes less to Redhill but the 18:19 and 17:49 take 39 minutes so only a few minutes less.

Between 6 and 7 Haywards Heath gets 7 trains whereas Redhill gets 2. Redhill passenger numbers (including transfers) are only slightly less than Haywards Heath according to NR's station usage charts yet only a third of the trains.

All adds up to my point that the BML fast trains are a lot less loaded than Redhill trains and the standing time is pretty comparable.

Hopefully you'll find a spot on the finished units that satisfies your needs.

Good luck with that!

That's why I need to get a pay rise.

In any case it's not a competition we obviously disagree on these trains. I'm very happy with the 377's to Victoria as long as I am in the Driving vehicles (please please please send 377 120-139 to South Eastern, that would make me so happy)

I'd have loved to see the 377/6 style seats on the Desiro City's, which although a little hard on my butt they allow room to move and a bit of personal space.

 

[Marklund]

You don't need a table to do that. I can do all that on a handheld tablet.

And all IT departments issue staff with tablets now?
My wife's prehistoric laptop would say otherwise!

 

[swt_passenger]

Will the 8-car units have a first class area?

Yes they will now - and this will reinstate first class to some shorter distance stopping services, such as the Wimbledon/Sutton loop, unless like Southern do now they'll be declassified in some defined operating areas.

The first areas are at either end of the train, both sides of the first set of doors.

 

[jon0844]

The large displays on the 700s could easily convey a message to passengers to say when first class is actually in use (or, more sensibly, when it isn't). Then it could be easily declassified without having to do it on what is effectively a permanent basis with the 377/5s.

 

[Class377/5]

You can input and copy data to a spreadsheet one handed as you use your second hand to hold the tablet up. I salute your skills but I am a bit more ordinary and can't do that.

My tablet works same as a laptop so requires no special skills.

By the way where do you hold your coffee whilst you do that? I like a coffee on the train whilst I work too.

I don't generally drink anything you can't seal as it ends up all over the place on tables on the 377s as they don't give a good enough ride.

Exactly my point, they are not short distance metro trains so why do they have short distance metro style interiors.

I don't agree they are.

I was being flippant, I thoroughly respect what Southern has done and am looking forward to more of the same from Govia. It's a shame they have been handicapped by a probably excellent train that has an interior designed by time and motion experts rather than designers.

The main point of a train is to transport people. The class 700 does this.

Have you also noticed that the Windows cannot be looked out of if you are standing up (not that there is many of them either) - another design fault from the passenger perspective

Same applies to a 377 so no change there.

I don't think my point is false as you said yourself that the design constraints are for 32 trains per hour in case of disruption. So at some point the plan became to squeeze more trains in for this purpose and then the need for Metro style interiors became paramount. I doubt that the engineers in the 1980's thought that.

Well BR started to plan for 20tph in the 80s then upped it to 24tph in the early 90's with an all new fleet. Your doubts don't change that.

32tph is the maximum you can do and it makes sense to have extra room as disruption will occur at some point.

It is a great concept that has been brought together over many years and it is one small part that I disagree with. The train interiors designed badly for the passengers who will be on the trains the most.

I completely disagree that they are badly designed. The simple fact is commuters may have the longest journey but they are only one of the many different types of travelers that make the current set up unsuitable.

[/quote]In the peak I'd disagree with you from my observations[/quote]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that you've never seen the heavy loadings at Gatwick (which are all day) conflict with commuters at Gatwick? On Thameslink Services (admittly rare for Redhill commuters) its always an issue.

[/quote]This evening I caught the 18:51 Victoria to Redhill from platform 15 at Victoria. Next to us on Platform 14 was the 18:44 Gatwick Express to Brighton. I could see that most coaches on the Brighton trains had about 60% of seats full. (well not the two nearest the barriers as they past me at high speed so hard to judge)

When the 18:51 departed in my coach, there were so many people standing they spread down the aisle - at Clapham Junction more got on. I counted the people standing as we pulled into Redhill and there was 20 people still standing, having reduced standees at East Croydon, Coulsdon South and Merstham.

The 18:44 takes 42 minutes to Haywards Heath, the 18:51 takes 9 minutes less to Redhill but the 18:19 and 17:49 take 39 minutes so only a few minutes less.

Between 6 and 7 Haywards Heath gets 7 trains whereas Redhill gets 2. Redhill passenger numbers (including transfers) are only slightly less than Haywards Heath according to NR's station usage charts yet only a third of the trains.

All adds up to my point that the BML fast trains are a lot less loaded than Redhill trains and the standing time is pretty comparable.[/quote]

When people are standing between Haywards Heath and London I will always suggest your claims of lightly loaded are false as you clamed. Perhaps the source of our differering views is I'm talking about BML services via London Bridge.

That's why I need to get a pay rise.

In any case it's not a competition we obviously disagree on these trains. I'm very happy with the 377's to Victoria as long as I am in the Driving vehicles (please please please send 377 120-139 to South Eastern, that would make me so happy)

I'd have loved to see the 377/6 style seats on the Desiro City's, which although a little hard on my butt they allow room to move and a bit of personal space.

I don't see it as a competition but a debate . Nothing wrong with that.

As your happy with 377s to Victoria, you must be happy to hear most BML will be 12 cars to Victoria in peak from 2018.

The seats on the class 700 are similar to the 377/6 but with padding so not sure I understand you there.

And all IT departments issue staff with tablets now?
My wife's prehistoric laptop would say otherwise!

I never said anything about what IT departments issue just what I do.

Will the 8-car units have a first class area?

Yes they will now - and this will reinstate first class to some shorter distance stopping services, such as the Wimbledon/Sutton loop, unless like Southern do now they'll be declassified in some defined operating areas.

The first areas are at either end of the train, both sides of the first set of doors.

What Govia do should be interesting as First had plans for the first class areas which are at both ends of all Class 700s. Sutton services would have been automatically declassified as would other routes.

 

[Marklund]

I never said anything about what IT departments issue just what I do.

Crikey, the trains are being built for you? How nice...

 

[Class377/5]

Crikey, the trains are being built for you? How nice...

Wait so me saying that a tablet can replace a laptop secretly means a train is being built for me? Nice way to warp a comment rather than actually provide a valid reply.

 

[Marklund]

Well, your comment that tablets are a reason tables aren't needed is highly indicative of someone who is only thinking about their own needs, rather than the reality of life, so you got the answer you deserved.

 

[jon0844]

Microsoft is hoping its latest Surface Pro 3 with the magnetic keyboard cover, designed to be usable when perched on a lap, will sell well.

I'm not sure it will (mostly because of the cost) but perhaps trains like this will help boost the sale of these devices. I can just about use my MacBook Air on an airline seat on a FGW HST, but they have the fold down seat back tables.

Thus it would seem that if you wish to work on a modern train, you'll have to get the right equipment to allow you to do so or be forced to do nothing but moan - or pay for first class.

 

[Class377/5]

Well, your comment that tablets are a reason tables aren't needed is highly indicative of someone who is only thinking about their own needs, rather than the reality of life, so you got the answer you deserved.

No I didn't ever say they weren't needed. Reality of life is, if you want to go don that route, is the class 700s don't have seatback tables. Perhaps drop the aggressive attitude and actually reply to hat people say rather then making it up?

Microsoft is hoping its latest Surface Pro 3 with the magnetic keyboard cover, designed to be usable when perched on a lap, will sell well.

I'm not sure it will (mostly because of the cost) but perhaps trains like this will help boost the sale of these devices. I can just about use my MacBook Air on an airline seat on a FGW HST, but they have the fold down seat back tables.

Thus it would seem that if you wish to work on a modern train, you'll have to get the right equipment to allow you to do so or be forced to do nothing but moan - or pay for first class.

I use a Surface Pro 1 myself.

 

[Marklund]

No I didn't ever say they weren't needed. Reality of life is, if you want to go don that route, is the class 700s don't have seatback tables. Perhaps drop the aggressive attitude and actually reply to hat people say rather then making it up?

If it comes across as aggressive, then I apologise. I feel your initial reaction to a very reasonable situation was very self centred, and ignored the real issue of a failing in this multi-million pound unit.

Users will still need tables for all manor of things, not just devices and lattes and the whole concentration of I'm alright Jack, I use a tablet, is getting away from the real issue of poor design.

 

[Class377/5]

If it comes across as aggressive, then I apologise. I feel your initial reaction to a very reasonable situation was very self centred, and ignored the real issue of a failing in this multi-million pound unit.

Users will still need tables for all manor of things, not just devices and lattes and the whole concentration of I'm alright Jack, I use a tablet, is getting away from the real issue of poor design.

I was trying to show my comments were based purely on my actual observations on Thameslink over the years than anything else. Which the majorly don't use the tables that much, so its less of an issue than I believe some feel it is.

I'm trying to show that its not so much a failing in the design but a design choice forced on the spec issued by the DfT.

Perhaps if the TOC/ROSCO had ordered the units things may have been different.

The while tablet thing was supposed to be just my personal experience in reply to a comment by another poster, rather than a suggestion what other computer users should do. Hopefully you see my posts aren't trying to suggest what all users can do, but just a mix of my personal experiences and observations over the years.

 

[DJL]

Just a small observation but aren't most "laptops" designed to be used while they are resting on one's lap?

 

[jon0844]

I expect many people will be able to 'work around' the lack of a seat back table, but I still think the trains should have them fitted.

When I've been on c2c, I've felt that having nowhere to put anything is not a great experience. The first time I travelled, I stupidly bought lunch to eat on the train (to save time) and then realised I had nowhere to put anything. I had a sandwich, packet of crisps and a drink, and had to use a mix of the floor and my lap to balance things.

Suffice to say, the crumbs from the sandwich ended up on the floor as I couldn't eat over the container that might otherwise be on the seat back table.

Some might argue that people shouldn't eat or drink on a train, especially hot and smelly food. But I doubt the train design will stop people doing it - it will just lead to more mess.

 

[Minstral25]

When people are standing between Haywards Heath and London I will always suggest your claims of lightly loaded are false as you claimed. Perhaps the source of our differing views is I'm talking about BML services via London Bridge.

.

Well these two graphics from FCC might go a long way to seeing which trains are overloaded and which are not.

First Haywards Heath

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/static/filemanager/0988_FCC_HaywardsHeath_1.pdf

Then Redhill

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/static/filemanager/0988_FCC_Redhill_1.pdf


Notice also that Haywards Heath gets significantly more trains and again I will point out that Redhill has a very similar customer base as Haywards Heath so less trains means more dense overloading.

I never said that Haywards Heath (or other BML) trains were not overloaded but that Redhill trains are significantly more overloaded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Same applies to a 377 so no change there.

The 377 was not designed primarily as a train that takes standing passengers whereas the "Spacious new interior" of the 700 is very much so designed.

 

[Class377/5]

I often change onto coast trains at East Croydon having come off trains so rammed from Redhill that people are lining the aisles against each other - there is always plenty of space to stand on the Brighton trains in comparison. On odd occasions I have gone via Gatwick there have always been lots of seats available on the extended trains.

So whilst they are far from empty compared to my local trains they seem pretty lightly loaded.

Well these two graphics from FCC might go a long way to seeing which trains are overloaded and which are not.

First Haywards Heath

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/static/filemanager/0988_FCC_HaywardsHeath_1.pdf

Then Redhill

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/static/filemanager/0988_FCC_Redhill_1.pdf

Notice also that Haywards Heath gets significantly more trains and again I will point out that Redhill has a very similar customer base as Haywards Heath so less trains means more dense overloading.

I never said that Haywards Heath (or other BML) trains were not overloaded but that Redhill trains are significantly more overloaded.

No, you stated lightly loaded.

Will point out I never said trains at Haywards Heath are overloaded but have standing passengers to London. There a significant different between the two. I've stood to Haywards Heath from London before in high peak on a few times.

 

[Minstral25]

The seats on the class 700 are similar to the 377/6 but with padding so not sure I understand you there.

The 377/6 and /7 both have seat back tables, ordinary tables, arm rests etc. I'm talking about the whole environment not the padding on the seat.

The 700 has none of the above but the seat maybe padded the same

 

[Class377/5]

The 377 was not designed primarily as a train that takes standing passengers whereas the "Spacious new interior" of the 700 is very much so designed.

That's the basic problem of the 377s, it doesn't cope with the current loadings where there are large numbers of people who can't get a seat and it deals poorly with luggage.

Again it comes down to conflicting requirements where the commuters are just one group so the internal requirements need to try to suit everyone. It can be argued that you can never achieve this but just accommodating for commuters only would be a bad idea.

The 377/6 and /7 both have seat back tables, ordinary tables, arm rests etc. I'm talking about the whole environment not the padding on the seat.

The 700 has none of the above but the seat maybe padded the same

The 377/6 and /7s aren't designed to operate in high frequency Core section, nor the weight loading specified by DfT to reduce track damage and reduce Core track closures. Note the newer Electrostars are hardly good at allowing passengers to move through the train compared the Class 700s. Something that is useful to balance loadings.

 

[southern442]

I expect many people will be able to 'work around' the lack of a seat back table, but I still think the trains should have them fitted.

When I've been on c2c, I've felt that having nowhere to put anything is not a great experience. The first time I travelled, I stupidly bought lunch to eat on the train (to save time) and then realised I had nowhere to put anything. I had a sandwich, packet of crisps and a drink, and had to use a mix of the floor and my lap to balance things.

Suffice to say, the crumbs from the sandwich ended up on the floor as I couldn't eat over the container that might otherwise be on the seat back table.

Some might argue that people shouldn't eat or drink on a train, especially hot and smelly food. But I doubt the train design will stop people doing it - it will just lead to more mess.

C2C trains do have tables at each end of the train-perhaps a provision for first class?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yes they will now - and this will reinstate first class to some shorter distance stopping services, such as the Wimbledon/Sutton loop, unless like Southern do now they'll be declassified in some defined operating areas.

The first areas are at either end of the train, both sides of the first set of doors.

FCC also declassify first class on the Sutton loop whenever 319/2s or /4s are used.

 

[Minstral25]

No, you stated lightly loaded.

Will point out I never said trains at Haywards Heath are overloaded but have standing passengers to London. There a significant different between the two. I've stood to Haywards Heath from London before in high peak on a few times.

I said "compared to my local trains they seem pretty lightly loaded" and I prefaced that with "So whilst they are far from empty". I am not saying there is no standing from Haywards Heath but that they are less full than trains operating through Redhill. The standing from Redhill is intense (i.e. lots of people in very close proximity).

This is from personal experience of both travelling on and seeing the South Coast trains and can be backed up by FCC's own graphics which I provided links to.

The standing times from Hayward Heath to London are comparable to those from Redhill as most trains from Redhill have a denser stopping pattern and thus are only a few minutes less travelling time than Haywards Heath (as I also showed before)

I'd also contend that the 377 does very well in these situations and can unload and reload at Clapham Junction normally in under a minute (noted daily by me). It may not be as efficient as a Class 700 in unloading and loading but it also does a lot of things for passengers that the 700 can't like give the passengers a good journey.

Also the 377 is a 15 year old design now and the 700's brand new - The new wide doors and extended standing areas on the 700's will do more for unloading speed than removing arm rests and tray tables. Hence I can't see why this removal of tables on the 700's and was necessary. Computer modelling in time and motion studies is not going to convince me.

I'll also contend that most travelers in the core will terminate there having come from a much longer distance (Excepting Wimbledon services). There will be relatively little "core" only end to end travelers but there will be plenty of room for them in the extended door areas anyway. So the point of dealing with many different types of passengers doesn't hold true to me.

 

[jon0844]

I too think some form of seat back table could have been used, but others know better...

 

[deltic08]

No I didn't ever say they weren't needed. Reality of life is, if you want to go don that route, is the class 700s don't have seatback tables. Perhaps drop the aggressive attitude and actually reply to hat people say rather then making it up?

Are there milliners on this Forum?

I have a solution to this problem of Class 700 seats not having seatback tables. Don't have any seats. Make everybody stand and whilst you are at it take out all the windows and take off the roof except where the pantograph is. This should reduce overcrowding especially on wet days when the chances of being electrocuted are higher. This worked in the 1830s, why not now. What's that you say, the passengers needs must come first? Whatever gave you that impression. (Source. DfT)

 

[AM9]

No I didn't ever say they weren't needed. Reality of life is, if you want to go don that route, is the class 700s don't have seatback tables. Perhaps drop the aggressive attitude and actually reply to hat people say rather then making it up?

Are there milliners on this Forum?

I have a solution to this problem of Class 700 seats not having seatback tables. Don't have any seats. Make everybody stand and whilst you are at it take out all the windows and take off the roof except where the pantograph is. This should reduce overcrowding especially on wet days when the chances of being electrocuted are higher. This worked in the 1830s, why not now.

Did they have OHLE in the 1830s?

What's that you say, the passengers needs must come first? Whatever gave you that impression. (Source. DfT)

Well there are needs and desires that are often confused as needs. The real need is to transport a very large number of passengers safely and in conditions that are for the most, healthy. The 2x2 seating allowing wider gangways and rapid ingress and egress together with adequate ventilation and heating cooling does just that. Armrests, deep seat padding and end doors are minor comfort improvements which seem important to some but do not actually contribute to the efficiency of what will be a highly stressed service. Seat back tables, cup stands, power outlets and USB jacks are all very nice for some to have but cannot be considered to be a genuine need, so Thameslink users will have to get over that. If their employers want them to work on the train, they should pay for a first class upgrade.
I regard wi-fi now however, as almost a necessity on DOO trains on very heavily loaded routes. It's relatively low cost probably gives a net benefit to the TOC as a means to inform and direct passengers in times of problems, if the twitter trolling and flaming is ignored.

 

[Minstral25]

What's that you say, the passengers needs must come first? Whatever gave you that impression. (Source. DfT)

Yep - that sums it up really. Excellent comment
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well there are needs and desires that are often confused as needs. The real need is to transport a very large number of passengers safely and in conditions that are for the most, healthy. The 2x2 seating allowing wider gangways and rapid ingress and egress together with adequate ventilation and heating cooling does just that. Armrests, deep seat padding and end doors are minor comfort improvements which seem important to some but do not actually contribute to the efficiency of what will be a highly stressed service. Seat back tables, cup stands, power outlets and USB jacks are all very nice for some to have but cannot be considered to be a genuine need, so Thameslink users will have to get over that. If their employers want them to work on the train, they should pay for a first class upgrade.
I regard wi-fi now however, as almost a necessity on DOO trains on very heavily loaded routes. It's relatively low cost probably gives a net benefit to the TOC as a means to inform and direct passengers in times of problems, if the twitter trolling and flaming is ignored.

Now there is a comment I accept as very valid but don't like.

However it is me who wants to use my commute time effectively not my employer - they do not require me to work on the train and I already spend 1/8th of my take home pay on travelling I can't afford first class.

Personally hate commuting but there are no local jobs for my skills so I am forced onto the commute. It makes me quite angry when people suggest I should be pushed into a cattle wagon for 3 hours a day and do nothing.

That's 30 days every year of my life on the commute - I'd prefer a bit more thought given to me by the DfT

 

[jon0844]

I'm not sure Wi-Fi is any more necessary than the other things discussed that are being discounted as unnecessary luxuries. If you are just going to break it down to simply providing a means of shifting a LOT of people around every day, Wi-Fi isn't needed either.

Having the train itself connected in order to receive real-time information to convey to passengers, as well as connecting the train for other things beneficial to the driver/train operator is essential.. but why then extend that facility to passengers? A service that must then be far more robust to avoid complaints when it goes down, or just runs slow, and just adds the cost?

Now, personally, I think there should be Wi-Fi, power sockets, seat back tables and some other 'luxuries', but the DfT and/or Siemens obviously thought differently.

The risk then, for the train operator, is that people who might wish to make long trips will be put off and seek another method of transport. It might still be a train, but another route, or it might be a car. I'm obviously talking more about the leisure market here, but I assume that all of these very nice, very long, trains running almost 24 hours will want to be filled as much as possible outside the peaks so attracting them is going to be vitally important.

Is the balance right on the 700s? We've seen the carriage layouts for both 8 and 12 car configurations, and maybe the seats with tables will be enough for the leisure travellers off-peak, or people who want more WILL pay for first class. I guess we'll have to wait and see.