Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[physics34]

Good post SamuelMorris

 

[MCR247]

I agree, very balanced and fair IMO

 

[TRAX]

Neither 30 minutes on a 700 on two occasions nor 60 minutes on a 387/1 caused me any discomfort in my bottom or back, and I do suffer from back pains, so I think the complaints about the seating are a little over the top. Yes the soft seats on, e.g. 377/1s are a lot more comfortable, but the 'ironing board' seating on modern units does not seem to bother me as much as is regularly suggested that it would.

This is because, contrary to popular belief, harder seats are better for the back/body. Sure, we all like soft seats, and we think of that as a "comfy" standard, but on the long term the body hates that. Body comfort (not psychological comfort) is more about the shape of a seat than its softness. Yes, that does mean that the thickness of a seat cushion has basically nothing to do with body comfort. So it's perhaps time to forget about the stupid "ironing board" name.

 

[Class377/5]

I wonder if regular users have begun to realise it's 12 coaches and spread themselves along the platform more. Also it's been dry this week, wet last week, so people are more likely to move out of shelter when waiting. Having said that, I was one of about 10 people walking through the train from near the back to near the front. Although I suspect I was the only one checking fittings etc!

Looking at the window and seeing the same faces at different points along the platform I agree. On day 2 the minute the unit arrived, people boarded where as on the first they were a little more hesitant.

I think there were some light green carriages on departure from Redhill on Monday. I'll have to have another ride to see what the full colour distribution is.

Rear 8 were green

Had a go on 700114 today, twice in fact - once deliberately and again by pure coincidence that it was operating the service I needed. In true GTR form, both services were around 20 minutes late.

The 'new train smell' is not exactly unpleasant but quite strong nonetheless - I wonder how long that will last

It was 700114 first day yesterday which properly meant it was a fair bit stronger.

PIS - arguably the weakest part of the system, its design is fairly well thought out, the audio quality is excellent, the text is quite clear to read as it's very high resolution, the scrolling rate is correct, the LUL information is useful when relevant, the loading indicators and toilet availability indicators seemed to work well enough, however there are some clear issues with this system, as one might expect for the first of its kind:
1. the system was rebooted 3 times prior to the train leaving London Bridge - not sure if this is normal behaviour, but it's a bit messy, you're reading the info then the screens go blank
2. the displays are unstable - on both legs of my journey in different carriages, some screens intermittently went blank when others did not (only the right portion in some cases, both in others), and one spent a minute or so cycling through each screen several times a second making it impossible to read any of it. The software for these is clearly still quite buggy and while fortunately each screen seems to operate independently of each other (as you can observe them all changing at different times), not sure why that should be the case and I suspect it will lead to a 'de rigeur' of at least two or three displays not behaving properly on each 700 in perpetuity unless they can improve the stability of them.
3. the LUL information needs not be displayed once outside the London area when travelling away from London in my opinion.

The PIS system is still in its early days and can/will be changed as time changes. The reset you mention aren't normal. Will pass that on, can you tell me what service you were on?

4. when the 'the next station is' message comes up, surely the second line could be used to continue to reel off the next stations, rather than you having to wait until the next station to be reminded of the calling pattern?

Interesting suggestion.

5. The loading and toilet indicators were only used after the train had departed the terminus. While that may be less an issue when the terminus is Bedford or Brighton, for services starting at busier stations I would argue that should be ready a lot sooner - giving people the opportunity to relocate before arriving at further stations that exacerbate the situation.

The loadings takes a few minutes to work out (after all people moving down the train means the weight can change from departure of a train from one station to the next.

The train has a professional finish and appears well-suited to the job. It will be unfortunate to lose the cosy style of the 387s during the hour long slog negotiating the diversion via Crystal Palace, but I won't be complaining too much if a 700 turns up in place of one. I honestly look forward to travelling on one again.

Glad you liked it.

 

[Class 466]

Anyone know which 700 is out in pax service today? Trust is being as useful as ever!

 

[samuelmorris]

TRAX - I quite agree, since suffering back issues I prefer firm and upright seats. That still means I find solid wood / plastic chairs uncomfortable, but I prefer say, an office chair, to a soft leather sofa for example.

Yes with regard to the loading indicators, 3 were dark green initially, 4 latterly, the remaining 8 or 9 were light green.

Class377/5: The service where the reset happened was the 0942 from London Bridge to Brighton (1B15).

As far as the upcoming stations idea goes, it's obviously not something you get on existing stock, but given the occasional minor annoyance of reading the calling list and having it cut off with 'the next station is x' and having it sit there at that on Electrostars is a little irritating when stations are close together, e.g. in the core. You may not always be able to gleam what the full calling pattern of the service is until after it's left the following station. Arguably of course you should always check what the calling pattern is before you board, and don't get on if not sure, but in extremely busy times if your view of the platform indicator is obstructed, or the platform display isn't working, sometimes I can totally understand boarding the train anyway and hoping for the best. Not usually an issue for me as I can normally get onto RTT to check for myself, but for the 'average user' having that second line blank seemed a bit of a waste.

On the loading indicators, I was aware of that, however given the train was sitting at London Bridge for almost 10 minutes I thought that might be long enough - the fact that all the other screens (not just the loading indicator, but the TfL service status and toilet availability) only came up after the train departed suggested to me that these don't activate until the train leaves. All that was on the display while sitting at LBG (again, when not being reset) was the destination and calling points.


I rather suspected it was the first day for 700114 as I hadn't seen any mention of it in this thread beforehand, so you can imagine my dismay when travelling on it at 10am to see a coffee stain on the floor!

 

[TRAX]

That still means I find solid wood / plastic chairs uncomfortable

Yes, too hard isn't good either. But as I said, shape is more important than softness. It's the posture that matters in the long term.

 

[physics34]

This is because, contrary to popular belief, harder seats are better for the back/body. Sure, we all like soft seats, and we think of that as a "comfy" standard, but on the long term the body hates that. Body comfort (not psychological comfort) is more about the shape of a seat than its softness. Yes, that does mean that the thickness of a seat cushion has basically nothing to do with body comfort. So it's perhaps time to forget about the stupid "ironing board" name.

Iam talking about a couple of inches extra cushioning on the seat base, especially for us "bigger people".. (you could tell me to go on a diet, but then you'd find that a large quantity of commuters are overweight.).
Im not talking about having a beanbag style of comfort

The hard "ironing board" seat back isnt an issue, it is the base. INfact they are upright and thin which helps in squeezing in more seats.
The ironing board name is more an affectionate observation of the shape ofthe seat back.

YOu have to ask really why first class seats have more cushioning for most other units...... All seats would be hard everywhere if they were that comfortable, because they would be demanded as such.

Even standard bus seats have about 6 inches of sponge/cushioning.

Then we come to sprung seats which were used in most pre-90s stock, not only for comfort but for "secondary suspension". Im not sure modern train suspension has improved that much to completely throw away the idea that a cushioned but supported seat base (with springs) is good for comfort.

IMO the current wave of hard seats are nothing more than a combination of cost cutting, over the top fire regulations and lack of thought by train designers.

 

[jon0844]

IMO the current wave of hard seats are nothing more than a combination of cost cutting, over the top fire regulations and lack of thought by train designers.

Not sure it's about cost cutting so much, rather the need to get in more seats but STILL comply with safety regulations.

Airlines are also seeking to make thinner seats to get in more rows (although there are rules on the passenger to crew ratio, although who is to say they won't amend the rules in future years?) and it makes sense.

People are moaning the 700s don't have enough seats. I think most people acknowledge 3+2 seating isn't good (it certainly would reduce standing room considerably, and slow boarding and alighting massively) so what's the solution. 16 carriage trains and every station upgraded?

First class offers better seating, tables and power. It's not exactly akin to first class on a long-haul flight, but there are benefits there and anyone wanting that extra comfort has at least got the option to pay for it.

 

[AM9]

... YOu have to ask really why first class seats have more cushioning for most other units...... All seats would be hard everywhere if they were that comfortable, because they would be demanded as such. ...

The first class seats are quite firm and what looks like thicker padding is an illusion. I travelled form East Croydon to Bedford on them and they weren't any more comfortable than the standard class ones that I used back to Blackfriars.

YOu have to ask really why first class seats have more cushioning for most other units...... All seats would be hard everywhere if they were that comfortable, because they would be demanded as such. ...

The class 700 seats are slightly wider, have armrests and more legroom, but the real selling point as for most London commuter routes is the exclusivity/availability of seats issue where journeys are generally not long enough to make seat 'sumputousness' a major attraction.

 

[physics34]

Not sure it's about cost cutting so much, rather the need to get in more seats but STILL comply with safety regulations.

Airlines are also seeking to make thinner seats to get in more rows (although there are rules on the passenger to crew ratio, although who is to say they won't amend the rules in future years?) and it makes sense.

People are moaning the 700s don't have enough seats. I think most people acknowledge 3+2 seating isn't good (it certainly would reduce standing room considerably, and slow boarding and alighting massively) so what's the solution. 16 carriage trains and every station upgraded?

First class offers better seating, tables and power. It's not exactly akin to first class on a long-haul flight, but there are benefits there and anyone wanting that extra comfort has at least got the option to pay for it.

yes, 3 + 2 seating isnt suitable especially for longer journeys.

It just doesnt seem right in modern britain to expect people to pay SUBSTANTIALLY more for a extra 2 inches of cushioning and a table...especially if you have a 90min journey.

These are a perfect metro unit (barring a couple of issues with set spacing against the coach sides) in my opinion. Just not for the longer distance services.

Basically the 12 cars should be better for the longer commute.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The first class seats are quite firm and what looks like thicker padding is an illusion. I travelled form East Croydon to Bedford on them and they weren't any more comfortable than the standard class ones that I used back to Blackfriars.



The class 700 seats are slightly wider, have armrests and more legroom, but the real selling point as for most London commuter routes is the exclusivity/availability of seats issue where journeys are generally not long enough to make seat 'sumputousness' a major attraction.

That seems to be the overall view of the 700s first class yes.

i fully get the london commuter route point but its the THOUSANDS that will use these for journeys of 90mins or possibly more that are getting a poorer deal.

 

[Domh245]

i fully get the london commuter route point but its the THOUSANDS that will use these for journeys of 90mins or possibly more that are getting a poorer deal.

And what about the millions who use them on shorter journeys?

 

[physics34]

And what about the millions who use them on shorter journeys?

Im talking on a daily basis!

Thats why i said the 8 car versions are fine!

 

[Nic Robinson]

And what about the millions who use them on shorter journeys?

I think he just said he fully gets that.

 

[asylumxl]

I think the number of users who use Thameslink for shorter journeys is greatly overstated...

 

[387star]

The 319 seats were good if you slouch and it's quiet. Easy enough to fall asleep on after a long day at work.

Not when the springs are coming through lol

 

[Nic Robinson]

I'm certainly not one of them and thoroughly resent the cretins who think airline seats are only for those below 5'8"!

 

[physics34]

Not when the springs are coming through lol

Maybe it's down to poor maintenance of the seats then rather than they are too low.

 

[Blamethrower]

Soft seats on buses help with the bouncy nature of the suspension over bumpy roads.

On a train, the movement is mostly side-to-side. This means that softer seats are often more uncomfortable as you have to tighten your bum muscles more, causing more discomfort.

 

[Class377/5]

As promised, next week's 700 workings

TB501
5Y91 02+14 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
2W91 02.40 Bedford to Brighton
1B00 05.47 Brighton to London Bridge
1B05 07.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B10 08.27 Brighton to London Bridge
1B15 09.42 London Bridge to Brighton
1B22 11.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B25 12.12 London Bridge to Brighton
5B25 13+29 Brighton to Down Yard
5B38 14+42 Down Yard to Brighton
1B38 15.02 Brighton to London Bridge
1B41 16.12 London Bridge to Brighton
1B48 17.32 Brighton to London Bridge
1B51 18.42 London Bridge to Brighton
5W51 20+06 Brighton to Three Bridges Depot

TB502
5W93 05+10 Three Bridges Depot to Three Bridges
2W94 05.20 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W13 07.34 Bedford to Brighton
1W24 10.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W41 13.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
1W92 15.59 Three Bridges to Bedford
2W61 18.24 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W66 20.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y68 23+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

TB503
5Y11 06+32 Jowett Sidings to Bedford
1W11 06.58 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W22 09.11 Three Bridges to Bedford
1W29 11.40 Bedford to Brighton
1W40 14.35 Brighton to Bedford
2W57 17.20 Bedford to Three Bridges
2W62 19.43 Three Bridges to Bedford
5Y62 22+00 Bedford to Jowett Sidings

 

[The Box Photter]

Many thanks for the advanced notice.

Will the trains operating to/from Bedford be 12 or 8 car?

 

[AM9]

Many thanks for the advanced notice.

Will the trains operating to/from Bedford be 12 or 8 car?

Judging by their peak journeys I would say that they are definitely 12-car. AIUI, the Bedford to Three Bridges/Brighton full services will be all 12-car M-F anyway. I'm sure we will all want to know how they fare with full loads through the core.

 

[Bald Rick]

Good grief.

1W11 (12 car) and 1W13 (normally 8 car) both routinely leave people behind at St Albans today, Lord only knows what it will be like on Monday with lots of anoraks on board!

Having said that, a 12 car on W13 will be most welcome.

 

[jon0844]

Surely all anoraks have been on the train by now? Running them off peak at first had multiple benefits, not just the obvious one about during chaos if one broke down.

 

[Class377/5]

Many thanks for the advanced notice.

Will the trains operating to/from Bedford be 12 or 8 car?

All 12 cars. The 8 cars are going through their testing phase just like the 12 cars did.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

What unit is doing the honours today please?

 

[Class 466]

What unit is doing the honours today please?

700114 again today

 

[Islineclear3_1]

700114 again today

Oh good, a new one, will try and get out later for it. Thank you

 

[jamie_]

Signalling problems at London Bridge (unshocker) means the 12:12 was cancelled, guess it may run later....

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Signalling problems at London Bridge (unshocker) means the 12:12 was cancelled, guess it may run later....

Has IB25 left yet (i.e. 12.12 departure)? I know RTT is not reliable but nothing is showing re departure/cancellation yet