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Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

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Bald Rick

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That being said, I'm going to be having a go on one tomorrow morning from East Croydon to wherever takes my fancy in Zone 1. I must be mad trying to get one during peak time, but it's also a good opportunity to get ahead of Kite159 on the class ;)

I wouldn't say that 0918 at East Croydon is peak time.
 
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jon0844

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It will be a good sign when we hear of the 700s being allowed to work in the peaks, and through the core. Once there's that level of trust, we should be good to go with them.

I wonder how the commuters will take to them, as I assume hardly any will have seen one yet (bar seeing them parked up) let alone been on one given the current diagrams.
 

Class377/5

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Do you know which 2 class 700s are moving up to Jowett Sdgs tomorrow to enter service on Monday?

109/114 were the two units that went up. However due to some driver issues, 109 went off diagram and and 501 diagram is now 387s today.

It will be a good sign when we hear of the 700s being allowed to work in the peaks, and through the core. Once there's that level of trust, we should be good to go with them.

I wonder how the commuters will take to them, as I assume hardly any will have seen one yet (bar seeing them parked up) let alone been on one given the current diagrams.

They've been working peaks for a while already. Just because they don't use the Core doesn't mean the 700s haven't seen peak action yet.
 

87015

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Do none of the 8 cars work yet or haven't they found a way to stop them at Tulse Hill yet? Be of far more use on the Suttons now seeing as almost the entire Peckham Rue route peak service into London Bridge has been withdrawn and most told to use 319s that already leave people behind, rather than playing nice to have on Brightons.
 
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Class377/5

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Do none of the 8 cars work yet or haven't they found a way to stop them at Tulse Hill yet? Be of far more use on the Suttons now seeing as almost the entire Peckham Rue route peak service into London Bridge has been withdrawn and most told to use 319s that already leave people behind, rather than playing nice to have on Brightons.

8 cars are subject to a separate testing which is a few months later (as planned) behind the 12 cars. So there's no playing to on the BML as it's seeing 12 cars only.
 

alexandali

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Got a couple of rides on 700's this morning - thanks to Class377/5 for posting the diagram info. I thought that the train itself makes a good high density people mover - not sure I'd want to do long commutes on it though.. The screens in my part of the train were stuck on 'please keep your feet off the seats', and later were still showing 'arriving at Farringdon' when we got to City Thameslink.
With all the disruption on Southern - it was very disappointing to have to wait 4 or 5 minutes for the doors to be released arriving at St Pancras - there were many annoyed baggage-toting travellers banging on the doors! I read in an earlier post that this problem will be fixed when ATO is introduced. However the southbound 700 service I got from there didn't have the problem. Certainly needs to be sorted out.
 

AM9

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Got a couple of rides on 700's this morning - thanks to Class377/5 for posting the diagram info. I thought that the train itself makes a good high density people mover - not sure I'd want to do long commutes on it though.. The screens in my part of the train were stuck on 'please keep your feet off the seats', and later were still showing 'arriving at Farringdon' when we got to City Thameslink.
With all the disruption on Southern - it was very disappointing to have to wait 4 or 5 minutes for the doors to be released arriving at St Pancras - there were many annoyed baggage-toting travellers banging on the doors! I read in an earlier post that this problem will be fixed when ATO is introduced. However the southbound 700 service I got from there didn't have the problem. Certainly needs to be sorted out.

I don't think it's a problem with the trains themselves. More an issue with stopping points being quite critical. ATO will stop them where it thinks is correct so the problem won't be there.
 

mrmatt

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With all the disruption on Southern - it was very disappointing to have to wait 4 or 5 minutes for the doors to be released arriving at St Pancras - there were many annoyed baggage-toting travellers banging on the doors! I read in an earlier post that this problem will be fixed when ATO is introduced. However the southbound 700 service I got from there didn't have the problem. Certainly needs to be sorted out.

Had similar issues on the train this morning at Farringdon - took a good 1.5-2 mins to get the doors open which was a surprise as it has been said here the override is meant to be quite quick.

Nice overall though - very quick to move away and the door opening (when they do!) is super speedy. Without wanting to bring the topic up again but I found the seats uncomfortable on my hour long journey, but I find the 387 seats fine all the way from Flitwick to Brighton. The PIS seems a bit over cautious though - it said the carriage was full when actually there was plenty of space (much more so than on the service when it was run with 387s).

Last thing I noticed is the destination screen on the front didn't seem very bright - was quite hard to read.

Overall though a good train - be glad to see the back of the 319s personally!
 

Bald Rick

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Had similar issues on the train this morning at Farringdon - took a good 1.5-2 mins to get the doors open which was a surprise as it has been said here the override is meant to be quite quick.

Nice overall though - very quick to move away and the door opening (when they do!) is super speedy. Without wanting to bring the topic up again but I found the seats uncomfortable on my hour long journey, but I find the 387 seats fine all the way from Flitwick to Brighton. The PIS seems a bit over cautious though - it said the carriage was full when actually there was plenty of space (much more so than on the service when it was run with 387s).

Last thing I noticed is the destination screen on the front didn't seem very bright - was quite hard to read.

Overall though a good train - be glad to see the back of the 319s personally!

I was on the same train - it didn't know it was at Farringdon. The AC> DC changeover took a long time as well.

Teething troubles no doubt.
 

adamedwards

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Likewise a lot of 6 car services still run on the Kings Cross - Welwyn GC peak services.

I really hoping that the cascade will start by replacing these 6 cars with 8. Indeed I would assume freeing up 313s to act as Xmas trees for spares to keep the others going would be a reason too.

Once the 313s go from all but Moorgates, the next target should be the 317s as the 321s are much better.

Adam
 

D365

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I really hoping that the cascade will start by replacing these 6 cars with 8. Indeed I would assume freeing up 313s to act as Xmas trees for spares to keep the others going would be a reason too.

You can hope as much as you want, but as far as I'm aware, the 313s are only going to be replaced when the Class 700/717 fleets start operating on the GN side.
 
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I was on the 0744 from Flitwick into London this morning. Unfortunately, the train was severely baulked by congestion caused by passenger illness on a preceding train. We were 25 mins late into Blackfriars.

First impressions:

Seats - too hard on the old posterior I'm afraid. My rear was protesting by the time we reached West Hampstead. Lack of foot room when seated next to the windows. Spacing of seats was OK.

Smell - like a leak at a chemical factory. Probably due to the lack of soft surfaces. A number of passengers commented about it.

Ride Quality - better than a 377, but it did thump quite loudly over switches & crossings.

Acceleration - the unit (700107) seemed very slow off the mark. I wonder whether any traction motors had been isolated.

Doors - long delays between arriving at stations and the doors being released. This was particularly noticeable at Luton (where the driver seemed unable to release the doors). There was a long delay at St Pancras and Farringdon. The doors do open quickly once released though. I'm disappointed at the placement of the door open buttons inside the train, only at one side of the door. They're also quite low down (presumable for DDA compliance).

CIS - Not operational except for randomly telling people not to put their feet on the seats (difficult as most of the seats are airline!).

General ambiance was ... non-existent. Like travelling in a hospital waiting room. I also found the train to be quite noisy and things like the luggage racks & toilets seemed to have been scattered haphazardly throughout the train.

D minus - could do better.
 

Hadders

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I really hoping that the cascade will start by replacing these 6 cars with 8. Indeed I would assume freeing up 313s to act as Xmas trees for spares to keep the others going would be a reason too.

Once the 313s go from all but Moorgates, the next target should be the 317s as the 321s are much better.

Adam

I didn't think there was much between KGX and WGC that was run with 313s.
 
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samuelmorris

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Do you know, the door controls only being on one side didn't even occur to me - that is inexcusable for stock that's fundamentally designed for DOO operation.
I'm not sure I agree with 'new train smell' being a big minus, yes it was very strong and not exactly a pleasant odor, but since it is likely to fade within weeks, I wouldn't really 'dock marks' for it. It seems like my issues with the PIS were pretty minor compared to many people's. Likewise it's disappointing that nothing can be done about the multiple-minute door opening times in the core. I understand why it happens, but for how many instances of that I've seen, it's little surprise they still haven't deployed many units at once yet.
 

Class377/5

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Anyone though the door button on one side is a way to control passenger loadings so people exit from one set of doors allowing on/off boarding at the same time?

Not sure how spacing toilets out is haphazard. If you check the diagram on the PIS you'll find it's a balanced spacing.
 
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Your seems like the first [generally] negative experience that has been had here - interesting.

Possibly because the train could have been so much better, but DfT became obsessed with provision for carrying crush-loads through the core. They're a step backwards in terms of passenger comfort and ambiance from the Electrostar - no carpets, no armrests, no seat cushions, no room for feet, no tables, no power points, no style.

I was prepared to be won-over, but given the door niggles, apparent inability of the driver to handle the train properly and the sheer lack of fit & finish inside the unit, the whole experience was disappointing. Exposed screw heads, boxes stuck to the walls & floors. STI clinic flooring and bare magnolia walls. Despite the lack of carriage ends, passengers resolutely refused to move far from the door areas. The driver passcom was loud, but the attention chime was ridiculously loud. Unfortunately the driver clearly had received no training on how to use the device.

I'm looking at the train from the point of view of someone who will be consigned to suffer these ghastly abominations from now until I retire. I'm not reviewing it from a railway enthusiast standpoint.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyone though the door button on one side is a way to control passenger loadings so people exit from one set of doors allowing on/off boarding at the same time?

Not sure how spacing toilets out is haphazard. If you check the diagram on the PIS you'll find it's a balanced spacing.

Do you really think passengers will exit only from one side of the door? If you do, you clearly have no experience of how real people (not computer simulations) behave.

I was unable to check spacing of the toilets because the PIS was non-functional. What I assumed were the toilets (and possibly electrical cubicles) were spaced as though a range of IKEA kitchen units had been thrown in by some Teutonic kitchen fitter.
 

jon0844

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I think the way everything is bolted together looks pretty clean and stylish, compared to the weird stuff used on so much Bombardier kit - especially stock with rubber to stop vibrations, which ends up hanging out after any routine maintenance.

I wonder how the 387s will look after a few years compared to the 700s. I remember the 377/5s getting shabby quite quick, and likewise the 379s.

I expect the clinical look will actually be an advantage in the long run.

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Bald Rick

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Possibly because the train could have been so much better, but DfT became obsessed with provision for carrying crush-loads through the core. They're a step backwards in terms of passenger comfort and ambiance from the Electrostar - no carpets, no armrests, no seat cushions, no room for feet, no tables, no power points, no style.

I was prepared to be won-over, but given the door niggles, apparent inability of the driver to handle the train properly and the sheer lack of fit & finish inside the unit, the whole experience was disappointing. Exposed screw heads, boxes stuck to the walls & floors. STI clinic flooring and bare magnolia walls. Despite the lack of carriage ends, passengers resolutely refused to move far from the door areas. The driver passcom was loud, but the attention chime was ridiculously loud. Unfortunately the driver clearly had received no training on how to use the device.

I'm looking at the train from the point of view of someone who will be consigned to suffer these ghastly abominations from now until I retire. I'm not reviewing it from a railway enthusiast standpoint.

The door opening niggles are that - niggles - and will get sorted. The train I got had 2-3 minutes at Farringdon unable to open the doors, however at all other stations it was immediate. It is also a fair assumption that it was the drivers first trip driving one in passenger service, so he (or she) would have been understandably handling it with some caution. I found the seats comfortable for the 40 minutes I was on board. Finally, I haven't seen the flooring in an STI clinic so will have to take your word for it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Do you know, the door controls only being on one side didn't even occur to me - that is inexcusable for stock that's fundamentally designed for DOO operation.

Why does being DOO stock make any difference re door buttons?

Besides, as has been said before, by 2018, at all stations in the core the doors will open automatically as soon as the train has stopped in the platform, without driver intervention. Outside the core the dwell times are not so critical.
 

Class377/5

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Do you really think passengers will exit only from one side of the door? If you do, you clearly have no experience of how real people (not computer simulations) behave.

Yeah, many years of frontline dealing with passengers in the Core means no experience. And yes I do think this is possible (didn't actually say it would happen) but on my peak commutes it was making a difference. Remember I've been using them in peak for awhile now so using real world experience here to back up my point not an personal attack.

I was unable to check spacing of the toilets because the PIS was non-functional. What I assumed were the toilets (and possibly electrical cubicles) were spaced as though a range of IKEA kitchen units had been thrown in by some Teutonic kitchen fitter.

Wow, you really don't like these units do you? Seems your too busy hating to make any valid point so I'm going to stop bothering as your only getting personal.
 

55003

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Do you not think class377/5 that passengers hate being told what to do and they will revert to what they have been used to or what they want to do? The missing items will be a niggle which on a daily basis will become bloody annoying.
My biggest niggle is the buttons on internal doors on pendolinos which are so high that you have to put the bag you are carrying down so that you can press the button. This I find hugely annoying and I curse the designer every time I travel on one.
Your attitude reminds me of the architect of a millenium clock where I live which everybody detests, but the architect just gets petulant and tells us that we do not understand his artwork.
 
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Yeah, many years of frontline dealing with passengers in the Core means no experience. And yes I do think this is possible (didn't actually say it would happen) but on my peak commutes it was making a difference. Remember I've been using them in peak for awhile now so using real world experience here to back up my point not an personal attack.



Wow, you really don't like these units do you? Seems your too busy hating to make any valid point so I'm going to stop bothering as your only getting personal.

Not getting personal. The trains are the railway equivalent of a horse that's been designed by committee.

But, your attitude sums up the current way that train designers and operators think of their customers. The Class 700 is designed down to the lowest common denominator. It assumes we're willing to stand rather than sit and that we're so slovenly that the trains need to have a wipe-clean/hose-out interior. The fare-paying passenger has been reduced to so much self-loading cargo.

No, I don't like the train and I'm entitled to my opinion, but I'll put up with it.
 

Class377/5

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Do you not think class377/5 that passengers hate being told what to do and they will revert to what they have been used to or what they want to do? The missing items will be a niggle which on a daily basis will become bloody annoying.
My biggest niggle is the buttons on internal doors on pendolinos which are so high that you have to put the bag you are carrying down so that you can press the button. This I find hugely annoying and I curse the designer every time I travel on one.
Your attitude reminds me of the architect of a millenium clock where I live which everybody detests, but the architect just gets petulant and tells us that we do not understand his artwork.

I honestly think the regular passengers don't really give a crap. The 377s don't have buttons either side so won't really miss them on certain routes. Too much opinion on forums like this is from those who care about the train. Most passengers want a seat and to get from a to b. Things like working wifi are far higher priorities for the modern commuter.

No passenger has been told what to do but basic psychology used to help direct passenger flows. Every single supermarket you've ever been applies the same technique to get you to buy things but I don't see the out cry so why here when the actual point is to deal with large passenger flows?
 

physics34

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Not getting personal. The trains are the railway equivalent of a horse that's been designed by committee.

But, your attitude sums up the current way that train designers and operators think of their customers. The Class 700 is designed down to the lowest common denominator. It assumes we're willing to stand rather than sit and that we're so slovenly that the trains need to have a wipe-clean/hose-out interior. The fare-paying passenger has been reduced to so much self-loading cargo.

No, I don't like the train and I'm entitled to my opinion, but I'll put up with it.

have to agree..........although i think the units are fine for short journeys. They are not up to scratch for hour-plus journeys.
 

AM9

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I think part of the criticism is down to them being compared to 377/387s. They were designed to replace the 319s and in that context, most would agree that they are a considerable improvement. If they had been ordered on time, the Electrostar experience would at most have been the use of a few 'top-up' trains to remove the 4-car peak services.
In practice, the full service just wouldn't work with Electrostars with their longer dwell requirements and inadequate total capacity. The 700s will be the only viable solution to traffic levels in less than 10 years, (unless Brexit causes large reductions in London employment levels).
 

asylumxl

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I think part of the criticism is down to them being compared to 377/387s. They were designed to replace the 319s and in that context, most would agree that they are a considerable improvement.

That's not really saying much. Given there's almost three decades between them, you'd damn well expect them to be a considerable improvement...
 

jon0844

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have to agree..........although i think the units are fine for short journeys. They are not up to scratch for hour-plus journeys.

I managed a return trip to Brighton from London Bridge without any problems (didn't even step off the train) and given most people are going to be doing something, like reading or using their phone (sadly, using a laptop isn't quite so easy outside of first class) I doubt they'll care as long as they're reasonably comfortable, and can also get to/from the toilets easily.

Or maybe people still look out the window (do people do that still? ;) ) and, again, not really care about the look of the train.

If the trains get fold down tables, Wi-Fi or power sockets throughout, that will surely make them near perfect? As in near perfect on a line that is always going to be a compromise.

In an ideal world, the core would have been made four tracks from the start, so you'd have the potential to run fast and slow services, and could perhaps have then specified two different interior layouts.

But it isn't, and won't ever be (in our lifetime I'd say) so this is about the best you can get.
 

387star

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Is it upholstery or, flat cloth like southern on the seats?

Someone mentioned rubber is used to ease vibrations is that the reasoj for the rubber strips inbetween heater grill sections and other plastic pannelling on 377s then
 

Abpj17

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I was on the 0744 from Flitwick into London this morning. Unfortunately, the train was severely baulked by congestion caused by passenger illness on a preceding train. We were 25 mins late into Blackfriars.

First impressions:

Seats - too hard on the old posterior I'm afraid. My rear was protesting by the time we reached West Hampstead. Lack of foot room when seated next to the windows. Spacing of seats was OK.

Smell - like a leak at a chemical factory. Probably due to the lack of soft surfaces. A number of passengers commented about it.

Ride Quality - better than a 377, but it did thump quite loudly over switches & crossings.

Acceleration - the unit (700107) seemed very slow off the mark. I wonder whether any traction motors had been isolated.

Doors - long delays between arriving at stations and the doors being released. This was particularly noticeable at Luton (where the driver seemed unable to release the doors). There was a long delay at St Pancras and Farringdon. The doors do open quickly once released though. I'm disappointed at the placement of the door open buttons inside the train, only at one side of the door. They're also quite low down (presumable for DDA compliance).

CIS - Not operational except for randomly telling people not to put their feet on the seats (difficult as most of the seats are airline!).

General ambiance was ... non-existent. Like travelling in a hospital waiting room. I also found the train to be quite noisy and things like the luggage racks & toilets seemed to have been scattered haphazardly throughout the train.

D minus - could do better.

I was on the same train/carriage and can echo that experience. The increasingly uncomfortable seats and lack of tables I knew to expect. Tables are important when there are delays because I can capture a bit of my working day / life back.

I was surprised at how jolting it was switching across lines. I liked that the heater thing was flat so I could rest a foot on it...some of them are sloped which makes that impossible (on the more cramped trains it helps with leg room).

Another silver lining is I dread to think about packed the train would have been with old style and only 8 carriages. As it was people were left behind at St Albans. Wipe-clean is good for these trains - they are regularly gross on Friday and Saturday nights.

I was intrigued with the seat supports as well - just a single supporting bar, not proper legs.

(Only slightly off-topic - lost 25 mins this morning; 20 on Friday night; 55 on way home tonight - all annoying just short of the next level delay repay!)
 
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