Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[TheKnightWho]

But what if the P.I.S. 'problem' is not on the train at all ?
The fact traincrew (driver) diagrams have been published with the codes for the driver to input into the system missing so at train time the driver has to phone the service 'delivery' centre SDC to request a code, often to get the engaged tone so the trin is incorrectly set up on departure.
Service goes up the wall, terminating short, disruption and unplanned moves same happens no PIS code to enter

Why is delivery done using an extremely archaic technology like 2G?

 

[Class2ldn]

Unfortunately they've been rushed into service, the star car markers are all over the place but they've put no notices up telling us of the changes to stop boards etc. Where you'd expect the rlu board by the 8 car for example to then pull up and find its actually at the end of the platform and vice versa.
It's poor planning and us drivers who've had to deal with the issues have been chucked right in the deep end.
It's quite obvious they haven't tested all situations and I guess it's impossible to oversee every problem before it happens but to me and a lot of other drivers they just are not ready yet. Great trains when they work but a hell of a nightmare when they don't.
The issues with doors not opening is getting a bit monotonous now.
One driver the other day stopped bang on the mark and had no option to release the doors, no fasdo or msdo and had to shut it all down and only got the option once his key had been put back on.
Seems there's also an issue which we were not told about with rebooting.
It seems when we aux back on we have to wait for the lights to go off then back on again before you key on otherwise computer just says no and won't boot up. That why one was stuck at city thameslink the other week as the driver kept rebooting but didn't know about the lights etc.
To me the training has been pretty poor and not many people have much confidence in doing 1 trip without an issue let alone a whole shift in one.

 

[Blamethrower]

Are all these issues electrical then?

Do they seem OK mechanically?

 

[AlexNL]

Why is delivery done using an extremely archaic technology like 2G?

Why not? 2G might be old, but that doens't mean it's bad. 2G has a few advantages over 3G and 4G: equipment price and coverage. The costs for 2G equipment are lower due to licensing, patents and all that being expired (although that's just small change when compared to the price of a train set) but the main benefit of 2G is that it's got tremendous coverage!

A few years ago I was on a MyFerryLink ferry from Calais to Dover. I had 2G coverage all the way through, there was only a brief interruption when my phone hopped from the SFR network to the EE one.

Furthermore, the amount of information that has to be provided to the trains should be small: "You are train XYZ123, you are a fast Thameslink service, and today you will be stopping at stations A, B, C and your service will terminate at D." You don't need 3G or 4G technologies to relay that.

 

[Alteran Ancient]

Are all these issues electrical then?

Do they seem OK mechanically?

Electrical, no. Software is the most likely guess.

A lot of teething problems caused by new rolling stock is usually a result of software stubbornness - things that do not always rear their head during programming, software unit testing, emulation or even on the test track, and only start to show up during early runs in revenue service.

It can be things like unknown sensor readings, or overly-aggressive safety checks that do not always have an override or immediate solution. Or it could be because your integrated computer tried to divide by zero.

Mechanically, the 700s are well built - decent acceleration, smooth suspension and impressive sound insulation, among other things. It just seems to be the software that is letting it down somewhat. Being from a software development background myself, I can relate to this.

 

[jon0844]

Why not? 2G might be old, but that doens't mean it's bad. 2G has a few advantages over 3G and 4G: equipment price and coverage. The costs for 2G equipment are lower due to licensing, patents and all that being expired (although that's just small change when compared to the price of a train set) but the main benefit of 2G is that it's got tremendous coverage!

A few years ago I was on a MyFerryLink ferry from Calais to Dover. I had 2G coverage all the way through, there was only a brief interruption when my phone hopped from the SFR network to the EE one.

Furthermore, the amount of information that has to be provided to the trains should be small: "You are train XYZ123, you are a fast Thameslink service, and today you will be stopping at stations A, B, C and your service will terminate at D." You don't need 3G or 4G technologies to relay that.

2G is bad because in so many places it's near useless for data. Especially on O2 and Vodafone, or using old Orange sites get to be brought into MBNL. Usually with copper backhaul or microwave links with woefully inadequate capacity to cope. Besides sometimes having no data flow, you can often have speeds so slow that things timeout.

Ironically, once a site is upgraded and gets fast 3G and/or 4G, then GPRS and EDGE can become quite good but until all sites are done, I wouldn't recommend using 2G at all.

3G is also flawed due to cell breathing, so you really want 4G, which even with a poor signal can maintain a usable, low latency, connection that is fine for small bursts of data. Suffice to say many M2M systems, like smart meters, are going to 4/4.5G. Especially important when 3G will be turned off in many places by 2020.

2G is fine for the railway with a private network, but otherwise a no no.

Does anyone know what network is used?

 

[AM9]

Does is make any difference to the passenger?

One way of the other, a facility has failed to be provided. Whether it's the fault of the train, or Thameslink's management, either way it's a failure.

This is a discussion between insiders, experts and enthusiasts/passengers that are (generally) a lot more informed than the average media source or TOC's twitter account clients. Given that the thread now has over 5600 posts, most of the potential problems are known and the only contentious issues are whether the ones to fix them are the DfT, the train manufacturers, the individual equipment manufacturers, the TOC, Network Rail, telecomms operators, the unions (rail and others), the police, passenger groups and maybe even the passengers - or of course which combinations of the above would be involved jointly.

 

[bramling]

This is a discussion between insiders, experts and enthusiasts/passengers that are (generally) a lot more informed than the average media source or TOC's twitter account clients. Given that the thread now has over 5600 posts, most of the potential problems are known and the only contentious issues are whether the ones to fix them are the DfT, the train manufacturers, the individual equipment manufacturers, the TOC, Network Rail, telecomms operators, the unions (rail and others), the police, passenger groups and maybe even the passengers - or of course which combinations of the above would be involved jointly.

The point is that it's down to the industry one way or another. There are times when this forum seems to forget that the point of the railway is to run trains from A to B in accordance with an advertised timetable. Those associated with providing Thameslink services would do well to grasp this.

 

[asylumxl]

The point is that it's down to the industry one way or another. There are times when this forum seems to forget that the point of the railway is to run trains from A to B in accordance with an advertised timetable. Those associated with providing Thameslink services would do well to grasp this.

I'm afraid GTR's management do not communicate verbally as we would, rather they communicate with numbers. Experts believe lower numbers to have positive conitations, while higher numbers are considered vulgar.

 

[AM9]

The point is that it's down to the industry one way or another. There are times when this forum seems to forget that the point of the railway is to run trains from A to B in accordance with an advertised timetable. Those associated with providing Thameslink services would do well to grasp this.

And some seem to think that these forums are an extension of a TOC's passenger complaints department. Some feel the need to regularly repeat their misgivings about aspects of these trains. That's there opinion which they are entitled to express freely, but when it becomes a broken record it a) loses any impact on other's views and b) just gets in the way of actually discussing the issues.

 

[Nic Robinson]

Unfortunately they've been rushed into service, the star car markers are all over the place but they've put no notices up telling us of the changes to stop boards etc. Where you'd expect the rlu board by the 8 car for example to then pull up and find its actually at the end of the platform and vice versa.
It's poor planning and us drivers who've had to deal with the issues have been chucked right in the deep end.
It's quite obvious they haven't tested all situations and I guess it's impossible to oversee every problem before it happens but to me and a lot of other drivers they just are not ready yet. Great trains when they work but a hell of a nightmare when they don't.
The issues with doors not opening is getting a bit monotonous now.
One driver the other day stopped bang on the mark and had no option to release the doors, no fasdo or msdo and had to shut it all down and only got the option once his key had been put back on.
Seems there's also an issue which we were not told about with rebooting.
It seems when we aux back on we have to wait for the lights to go off then back on again before you key on otherwise computer just says no and won't boot up. That why one was stuck at city thameslink the other week as the driver kept rebooting but didn't know about the lights etc.
To me the training has been pretty poor and not many people have much confidence in doing 1 trip without an issue let alone a whole shift in one.

A most telling post.

 

[bramling]

And some seem to think that these forums are an extension of a TOC's passenger complaints department. Some feel the need to regularly repeat their misgivings about aspects of these trains. That's there opinion which they are entitled to express freely, but when it becomes a broken record it a) loses any impact on other's views and b) just gets in the way of actually discussing the issues.

Well, the issue seems to be gaining salience .. this week's edition of my local paper contains a two-page spread which is heavily critical of the new trains, and the proposed timetable. This is followed up by a number of letters in the letters page, all of which are critical.

 

[jon0844]

People don't often write in to say good things about something, but get something off their chest.

The feelings on a local FB group talking about the forthcoming 387s and 700s haven't been that positive either.

There's a belief that there will be less seats on the new trains, ignoring longer trains and potentially more trains per hour for many people (including the 717s, which frankly people will have to use rather than ignore because they get you to London 10 minutes slower - ditto for those at St Albans that let slow trains pass near empty).

Also, some people are moaning that the 387s are hand me downs. Trains about a year old aren't good enough for some people! And these aren't people who are moaning about the seats or who made them - people who seem to demand a brand new train that has never been used anywhere else!

I am sure that when GN gets the 700s, there will be similar comments about how they're not new anymore.

 

[asylumxl]

ditto for those at St Albans that let slow trains pass near empty).

I agree on everything but I'm not entirely sure I agree with this part.

As a user of TL further north, I generally let the trains that run fast between St Albans and St Pancras pass, as I much prefer to use the slower trains (that usually only call additionally at Radlett, Borehamwood and West Hampstead Thameslink in peak).

They're anything but empty, with a healthy number of people getting on at St Albans. Having said that some idiots do insist on trying to squish themselves on already full "fast" trains.

I feel the entire MML timetable needs a serious rewrite to separate flows.

 

[Bald Rick]

I agree on everything but I'm not entirely sure I agree with this part.

As a user of TL further north, I generally let the trains that run fast between St Albans and St Pancras pass, as I much prefer to use the slower trains (that usually only call additionally at Radlett, Borehamwood and West Hampstead Thameslink in peak).

They're anything but empty, with a healthy number of people getting on at St Albans. Having said that some idiots do insist on trying to squish themselves on already full "fast" trains.

I feel the entire MML timetable needs a serious rewrite to separate flows.

In the morning peak at St Albans around 200-300 people will board each semi fast (calling Radlett, Elstree, Mill Hill and West Hampstead), and around 150 will board the all stations. Departing St Albans, the semis will be around 70% full, such that on departure from Radlett it will be standing room only. The stoppers only fill up at Elstree or Mill Hill.

Incidentally, most of the people boarding these at St Albans are heading to West Hampstead for the Jubilee (many of which are heading for Canary Wharf) or LO. The Wharf lot will undoubtedly swap to fast trains for Crossrail at Farringdon post 2018, as it will be at least 10 mins quicker.

 

[4-COR 3142]

Why is delivery done using an extremely archaic technology like 2G?

I have to say the why, should be why does it HAVE to be a system where a driver has to contact a hub somewhere to download the info in the first place?

Surely even a ZX81 could be programmed with all the potential Thameslink routes (there cannot be that many normal services all) and the driver just hits say option 21 if he's doing a Brighton to St.Albans for example?

That would be archaic, simple and effective, but wouldn't impress the geeks though.

 

[asylumxl]

I have to say the why, should be why does it HAVE to be a system where a driver has to contact a hub somewhere to download the info in the first place?

Surely even a ZX81 could be programmed with all the potential Thameslink routes (there cannot be that many normal services all) and the driver just hits say option 21 if he's doing a Brighton to St.Albans for example?

That would be archaic, simple and effective, but wouldn't impress the geeks though.

I don't know about that. The base model had 1KB of RAM...

 

[jon0844]

I don't know about that. The base model had 1KB of RAM...

Don't knock it, I'm sure Bombardier are using these quite effectively even today.

 

[AM9]

I don't know about that. The base model had 1KB of RAM...

and one version of the ROM insisted that the square of 0.5 was 1.35.

 

[asylumxl]

Don't knock it, I'm sure Bombardier are using these quite effectively even today.

I heard they're upgrading to the ZX Spectrum for the Aventra. Cutting edge technology.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

and one version of the ROM insisted that the square of 0.5 was 1.35.

Perhaps the same programmers who programmed the ROM also programmed the TMS for the 700s? Would explain a lot.

 

[carriageline]

I have to say the why, should be why does it HAVE to be a system where a driver has to contact a hub somewhere to download the info in the first place?



Surely even a ZX81 could be programmed with all the potential Thameslink routes (there cannot be that many normal services all) and the driver just hits say option 21 if he's doing a Brighton to St.Albans for example?



That would be archaic, simple and effective, but wouldn't impress the geeks though.

Because part of all this Thameslink project is about improving customer information. As I said previously in the thread, AIUI once Traffic Management gets rolled out, any stopping pattern changes will then be updated live and automatically across trains and stations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AlexNL]

Dutch intercity trains have that functionality, and overall it works quite well. It's happened several times to me that the trains knew more about a disruption impacting the journey than the on-board staff.

Display: "This train terminates here."
Staff over PA: "Ladies and gentlemen, the next stop is <terminus>, you're on board the intercity to <original destination>."
Staff over PA, 30 seconds later: "Ladies and gentlemen, we've just received the news that this train will terminate at <next station>. This is due to <disruption cause>."

The technology on board NS trains has been supplied by Nomad Digital, it has been designed to be a generic platform called OBIS (On Board Information Services). Future NS rolling stock will also use the OBIS platform for the PIS.

 

[Class377/5]

I have to say the why, should be why does it HAVE to be a system where a driver has to contact a hub somewhere to download the info in the first place?

Surely even a ZX81 could be programmed with all the potential Thameslink routes (there cannot be that many normal services all) and the driver just hits say option 21 if he's doing a Brighton to St.Albans for example?

That would be archaic, simple and effective, but wouldn't impress the geeks though.

That's kinda what the system does. However there is so many variations the list goes into eight figures as a result.

However you are all judging the Base system not the final system.

 

[SAPhil]

Does anyone know why the doors separating first class from standard have a big gap all the way around them? Why not have doors that fit!

 

[jon0844]

Does anyone know why the doors separating first class from standard have a big gap all the way around them? Why not have doors that fit!

The answer is further back in here. It wasn't an oversight!

 

[W230]

Does anyone know why the doors separating first class from standard have a big gap all the way around them? Why not have doors that fit!

Fire!

The high powered aircon is designed to suck the smoke outside to ventilate the train. Without the big gap round the 1st class doors it can't ventilate the air from that part of the train.

 

[SAPhil]

The answer is further back in here. It wasn't an oversight!

I thought it might be but the search I tried didn't help me to find it - much like your reply
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The high powered aircon is designed to suck the smoke outside to ventilate the train. Without the big gap round the 1st class doors it can't ventilate the air from that part of the train.

So is this because of the walk through design or are first class compartments in other train stocks dangerous? (Serious if possibly ignorant question )

 

[TheKnightWho]

Why not? 2G might be old, but that doens't mean it's bad. 2G has a few advantages over 3G and 4G: equipment price and coverage. The costs for 2G equipment are lower due to licensing, patents and all that being expired (although that's just small change when compared to the price of a train set) but the main benefit of 2G is that it's got tremendous coverage!

A few years ago I was on a MyFerryLink ferry from Calais to Dover. I had 2G coverage all the way through, there was only a brief interruption when my phone hopped from the SFR network to the EE one.

Furthermore, the amount of information that has to be provided to the trains should be small: "You are train XYZ123, you are a fast Thameslink service, and today you will be stopping at stations A, B, C and your service will terminate at D." You don't need 3G or 4G technologies to relay that.

It's bad if it means the phone line is engaged half the time!

 

[Class 466]

700019 entered service on Friday, having only been delivered on the 7th September, that's probably the quickest turnaround yet...

 

[AM9]

It's interesting to note how few class 700 rolling stock* failures there have been since their introduction. Whilst any failure of a train to run to its published timetable can affect passengers, there doesn't appear to be any intrinsic defects in either the design or manufacture of the hardware itself. Once the operational/training/ancillary equipment issues are fixed, the service looks like being up to the demands that will be put on it. The only other thing apart from other less-reliable trains getting in the way then is the heavily used core infrastructure.

* as opposed to in-service trains.