Thameslink/ Class 700 Progress

[FlippyFF]

I rode the slightly late running 19:00 Blackfriars (BFR) to Luton, alighting at St Pancras (STP) yesterday. At BFR for 4/8 car 319/3x7 services I normally board at the rear of the fourth car in order to be in the right place for exit at STP, so I was a little surprised when the train stopped and I was adjacent to the second car (IIRC). Momentarily forgetting about 8 car 700s and thinking it was a 12 car, I started walking down towards the middle to still be in the right place for STP but I then realised my gaff and moved back down inside the train to the second car, figuring that would still put me in the right place at STP but on arrival at STP the 4th/5th cars were aligned with the exit. Therefore not sure if the driver stopped out of place at BFR?

PIS working, including LUL information and audio announcements stating the doors will open automatically.

Still not a fan though of these though, to me they feel claustrophobic, are the ceilings lower than other classes? I don't like the lighting either.


Simon

 

[SpacePhoenix]

are the ceilings lower than other classes?

They've got a load of electronics in the roof space so it's possible that the ceilings might be a little lower to accommodate the electronics in the roof space

 

[Class377/5]

The ceiling is around the same height as other stock with its lower under the pan well just like a lot of other modern rolling stock (377/387 etc).

 

[W230]

...but on arrival at STP the 4th/5th cars were aligned with the exit. Therefore not sure if the driver stopped out of place at BFR?

Nope. They have different stopping points compared to the 387/377/319. Look for the RLU boards and you'll notice they are not in the same place as the "8 car" ones. Southbound in the core they're different at Farringdon and City TL. Northbound they're different at Blackfriars, Farringdon and St Pancras. I think City TL too can't quite remember.

Still not a fan though of these though, to me they feel claustrophobic, are the ceilings lower than other classes?

Claustrophobic?!!! They're about as open as a train can be!

 

[Class377/5]

Nope. They have different stopping points compared to the 387/377/319. Look for the RLU boards and you'll notice they are not in the same place as the "8 car" ones. Southbound in the core they're different at Farringdon and City TL. Northbound they're different at Blackfriars, Farringdon and St Pancras. I think City TL too can't quite remember.

Claustrophobic?!!! They're about as open as a train can be!

There was another poster who claimed due to restrictive window views the trains made him motion sick. Same with claustrophobic on a train where you can see Multiple carriages rather than just one. After all tradional stock it's a box on wheels where the 700s (like the 378/S stock) are 'tunes' on wheels.

Not sure how people think the 700s are small or don't have window space on them. Unless they choose to sit in a place where this can occur but still is more open than anything previous.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Still not a fan though of these though, to me they feel claustrophobic, are the ceilings lower than other classes? Simon

Claustrophobic!!!? On a train open throughout!?? And the windows can't get much bigger! Hope you never get stuck in a tunnel on one! Much rather be stuck on one of these than a 319 or 377/378

Presume the "failures" are few and far between now
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There was another poster who claimed due to restrictive window views the trains made him motion sick.

Motion sickness is specifically where you're sitting in a moving car/train/vehicle and in some people, the brain gets mixed messages where it thinks you are stationary (i.e sitting still) but the eyes are registering that the world is whizzing past outside when you're looking out the window. Nothing to do with restrictive window views - you'd think the less view there was outside the train, the less likely motion sickness was to occur

 

[F Great Eastern]

I can't imagine having motion sickness on a 700, most of the time I can barely tell they are moving!

 

[AM9]

I can't imagine having motion sickness on a 700, most of the time I can barely tell they are moving!

It looks like FlippyFF had decided that he didn't like class 700s and then tried to qualify his view.
So, in effect, his comments are:
Didn't know that 700s have different but very precise stopping positions
PIS screens and PA worked fine
Doors opened as required
The most 'open' train interior on UK tracks made him feel claustrophobic.

The verdict then, nothing wrong with the train and it performed faultlessly.

 

[jon0844]

Besides the seats and problematic PIS, if there's any 'complaint' it's that the interior looks bland.

But it has to be, because of what the service has become - and will become. It doesn't help that it all relies on a two track 'core' that is going to cause no end of problems when things go wrong, as well as the fact that for many it's a busy commuter service - so such long distances travelled will always have problems when things slip behind and everything gets snarled up.

Look at the bigger picture and these trains are exactly what's needed on Thameslink. The argument is, could Thameslink have been done differently? Should the core have been 4 tracked? Should we have made the network so complicated?

These are questions that will no doubt be asked during the time the 700s are in service and one day, let's consider that there will be a need to come up with another new train to replace them. I wonder what they'll end up looking like (not that I'm likely to find out).

 

[F Great Eastern]

Ideally either
The trains would have been delivered several years ago when they were supposed to be but were delayed due to incompetence and the slowest moving contract I've ever seen for new trains
OR
They would have been ordered only a short time ago, and were delivered on time with a more modern specification including the things that we come to expect after the last few years.

Instead we have a train with a specification built in 2008 being delivered in 2016.

Don't blame Siemens or Thameslink.

Blame the DFT.

 

[neilm]

FYI on 18:20 from BFR to BTN and PIS is off and taken along time for the doors to open at each station.

 

[tsr]

FYI on 18:20 from BFR to BTN and PIS is off and taken along time for the doors to open at each station.

As it so happened, the train following was a 12 coach 700 where the doors worked fine but some of the PIS announcements were, shall we say, missing! However, I was impressed that it announced that the doors would open automatically at certain locations, which they did, and quickly. I'd not heard that before, but maybe that's just because I've been on trains with duff PIS equipment. The loading information also seemed accurate tonight on the screens.

I was a bit disappointed that the screens made no mention of the massive disruption on the BML which would have impacted on a number of connecting journeys, but there you go. It seems that is still to come, and I believe it has been promised - it can already be done on the 377s anyway, so proof of concept is there.

Another thing - I did like how smooth the AC->DC changeover was. Other than the odd experience on LO 378s, I don't think I've had such a lack of interruption to my journey.

Ride was poor in a couple of places, such as over the throat just South of East Croydon, sadly. The best description I can give is that it felt like trying to ride a road bike over a particularly nasty speedbump whilst cushioned by a lumpy sock. I know all (yes, all) the BML junctions pretty well and I have every confidence it was down to the train, not anything out of the ordinary with that bit of track.

 

[Bald Rick]

I understand that the software in the train ties together the PIS and SDO, ie in some circumstances the absence of the PIS also explains the door issues.

I also understand that a new software version has been released, presumably being rolled out through the fleet. I heard the 'these doors will open automatically' for the first time last week, and that was on the first unit with the new software. The proportion of trips I take that seem to have faulty PIS or doors is definitely dropping.

 

[Sunset route]

700027 was the latest unit to arrive minutes ago.

 

[Class377/5]

Motion sickness is specifically where you're sitting in a moving car/train/vehicle and in some people, the brain gets mixed messages where it thinks you are stationary (i.e sitting still) but the eyes are registering that the world is whizzing past outside when you're looking out the window. Nothing to do with restrictive window views - you'd think the less view there was outside the train, the less likely motion sickness was to occur

It was the poster stated it was to do with restrictive view windows from the 700s including the four facing seats not me stating that.

Look at the bigger picture and these trains are exactly what's needed on Thameslink. The argument is, could Thameslink have been done differently? Should the core have been 4 tracked? Should we have made the network so complicated?

These are questions that will no doubt be asked during the time the 700s are in service and one day, let's consider that there will be a need to come up with another new train to replace them. I wonder what they'll end up looking like (not that I'm likely to find out).

The cost would have mean the TLP would have never been done. You'd need to build an underground station at Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Farringdon (fitting around Crossrail so it would have to be deep) and St Pancras and still reach Kentish Town and Finsbury Park. Add in everything else and there a project going closer to £10bn mark. Worth noting that Farringdon Crossrail station was over £200m alone.

Ideally either
The trains would have been delivered several years ago when they were supposed to be but were delayed due to incompetence and the slowest moving contract I've ever seen for new trains
OR
They would have been ordered only a short time ago, and were delivered on time with a more modern specification including the things that we come to expect after the last few years.

Instead we have a train with a specification built in 2008 being delivered in 2016.

Don't blame Siemens or Thameslink.

Blame the DFT.

Worth noting that the whole TLP has been delayed by three years from the original December 2015 start date when the project started in 2008.

Had the trains been used as originally planned then the fleet would needed additional stock that would have cost more.

Fact that Siemens have gone on the record saying they asked the DfT if they wanted the spec to change prior to build and were told no says a lot.

I understand that the software in the train ties together the PIS and SDO, ie in some circumstances the absence of the PIS also explains the door issues.

I also understand that a new software version has been released, presumably being rolled out through the fleet. I heard the 'these doors will open automatically' for the first time last week, and that was on the first unit with the new software. The proportion of trips I take that seem to have faulty PIS or doors is definitely dropping.

The PIS software is tied into the location detection. There was one unit going out with the new software that had improved performance. However it worth noting that the way the override works on the 700s is very different from the Electrostars which has caused some issues. On the Electrostar you try door opening then have to do an override. On the 700s you have to do the override before giving door release. Note the 700s will tell you if the doors will open before you give door release so its a different sequence of events.

700027 was the latest unit to arrive minutes ago.

32th unit and the 17th 700/0.

 

[Class 466]

I've now had 18 units in passenger service (700002/003/005/008/014/019 & 700101-104/107-114). Have I missed any?

 

[tsr]

1W25 appears to have experienced a traction defect of some description in the Crystal Palace area and, after a delay of about 15mins, has moved on and been detrained at East Croydon. 5W25 now on the move to Three Bridges depot 31mins down.

I'm not in the area to confirm, but I believe the diagrams on this thread show it as a 700...

 

[Class 466]

1W25 appears to have experienced a traction defect of some description in the Crystal Palace area and, after a delay of about 15mins, has moved on and been detrained at East Croydon. 5W25 now on the move to Three Bridges depot 31mins down.

I'm not in the area to confirm, but I believe the diagrams on this thread show it as a 700...

That would be 700005!

 

[tsr]

That would be 700005!

Thought it would be a 700, thanks!

 

[Class2ldn]

Yes it was 700005, aws fault, no horn on two yellows which caused the brakes to apply as the driver didn't realise it had activated. Did it again outside of crystal palace tunnel but driver managed to hit the button so it didn't get a second brake demand.

 

[Keith Jarrett]

Does anyone know what happened with 700002 this morning on 2V12 at Blackfriars? Driver could not release doors and after 10 minutes or so proceeded on to City Thameslink where the doors opened fine. From where I was on the train, it may have pulled up beyond the RLU stop mark. Did the on board systems throw a hissy fit as a result. And it is rather worrying if the driver cannot release the doors in an emergency.....

 

[physics34]

Does anyone know what happened with 700002 this morning on 2V12 at Blackfriars? Driver could not release doors and after 10 minutes or so proceeded on to City Thameslink where the doors opened fine. From where I was on the train, it may have pulled up beyond the RLU stop mark. Did the on board systems throw a hissy fit as a result. And it is rather worrying if the driver cannot release the doors in an emergency.....

..but the passengers could release the doors in an emergency using the egress.

 

[cyclebytrain]

..but the passengers could release the doors in an emergency using the egress.

A big surprise to me is that this hasn't happened yet (or at least I haven't seen it reported in this thread). Considering how impatient some commuters are, I'm surprised that after several minutes of the doors not opening at "their" station they haven't just used the emergency egress handle in a "don't you know how important I am" kind of way.

 

[westcoaster]

A big surprise to me is that this hasn't happened yet (or at least I haven't seen it reported in this thread). Considering how impatient some commuters are, I'm surprised that after several minutes of the doors not opening at "their" station they haven't just used the emergency egress handle in a "don't you know how important I am" kind of way.

Maybe they have become used to doors taking time to open ala 377/387. Using the emergency egress just creates more problems, and takes the drivers attention away from the door problems at hand.

 

[Stew998]

Is it time for a new thread on the Class 700 in service?

Personally I'm not a fan, I have caught a few to and from London Bridge from Sussex.

They are sparse and antiseptic inside; not very welcoming at all - they remind me of a hospital corridor on wheels.

There aren't many seats relative to the space available, might be okay as suburban stoppers but not for main line commuting on journeys of 45 minutes plus.

 

[Class377/5]

Is it time for a new thread on the Class 700 in service?

Personally I'm not a fan, I have caught a few to and from London Bridge from Sussex.

They are sparse and antiseptic inside; not very welcoming at all - they remind me of a hospital corridor on wheels.

There aren't many seats relative to the space available, might be okay as suburban stoppers but not for main line commuting on journeys of 45 minutes plus.

There is still plenty of testing to go. First 8 car on test on GN soon and that's before we see the units out on traditionally Southern only routes like Horsham and East Grinstead.

 

[Stew998]

There is still plenty of testing to go. First 8 car on test on GN soon and that's before we see the units out on traditionally Southern only routes like Horsham and East Grinstead.

Will this testing improve the interiors of units already in service though?

 

[Class377/5]

Will this testing improve the interiors of units already in service though?

The DfT specified the interior and only they can change them. Please direct any comments to them over the interior as neither TOC nor Siemens wanted the units this way.

 

[Failed Unit]

The DfT specified the interior and only they can change them. Please direct any comments to them over the interior as neither TOC nor Siemens wanted the units this way.

This comment amuses me, one of the few things that isn't the responsibility of the incompetent management at GTR. That list is very short.

 

[redbutton]

Does anyone know what happened with 700002 this morning on 2V12 at Blackfriars? Driver could not release doors and after 10 minutes or so proceeded on to City Thameslink where the doors opened fine. From where I was on the train, it may have pulled up beyond the RLU stop mark. Did the on board systems throw a hissy fit as a result. And it is rather worrying if the driver cannot release the doors in an emergency.....

Yes, this is one of the main operational issues with the units. Missing the stop mark results in being unable to open any doors, unlike the 377 which will still open the minimum number. Also, the SDO system is somehow tied to the PIS code, no PIS code means that the train will only open the front 4 at each station, and the system has a habit of dropping the stored PIS code without warning during the journey.

I've read there's a similar issue with the AC/DC changeover: if the driver isn't exactly on the GPS-defined coordinates the system will refuse to changeover.

In all cases, the egress handles are available for emergency use so there is no danger, just inconvenience.