Thameslink - how naive can I be?

[c52]

There was a broken rail just south of St Pancras on the northbound line today. It had the effect that trains had to cross it at 5 mph, according to our driver.

As a knock-on effect, half the trains were cancelled for hours and hours, including the entire service between Rainham and Blackfriars which plainly goes nowhere near St Pancras.

I'm inclined to think that a bit of railway that cost £6.5 billion should be able to last for decades without a rail breaking, and that if trains have to slow down a bit for a quarter of a mile, the service should remain complete.

 

[westcoaster]

Unfortunately the broken rail was just in the platform.
Trains were doing 5mph from before the platform, thru the full length of the platform, station dwell time and until the rear cleared the termination board.
Due to the location and type of break it had to be a 5mph emergency speed restriction.

That soon means massive delays.

 

[JonathanH]

Unfortunately the broken rail was just in the platform.
Trains were doing 5mph from before the platform, thru the full length of the platform, station dwell time and until the rear cleared the termination board.
Due to the location and type of break it had to be a 5mph emergency speed restriction.

That soon means massive delays.

One of the issues with this kind of disruption on Thameslink is what happens each side of the issue - eg the 0758 and 0828 services from Rainham terminated at Dartford and then no trains ran between Rainham and London Bridge for the rest of the day. The OP's issue to some extent seems to be that no shuttle can be set up to run part of the service when the disruption is in the centre of London.

Similarly, the southern end of Bedford to Gatwick services didn't run at all.

Part of the issue seems to be the balance of resources on each side of London - eg all the units are at Cricklewood or Bedford and staff on the wrong side of London - and it is apparent that there wasn't the opportunity to get them past the issue.

 

[MCSHF007]

It was painful to watch 12 car trains creep in and out of the station at little more than walking pace during a brief visit (en route from Sheffield to West Brompton via Wakefield, Kings Cross, St Pancras and West Hampstead) this afternoon. Well done to all concerned for keeping (at least some of the) trains moving (just...) in the circumstances.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm inclined to think that a bit of railway that cost £6.5 billion should be able to last for decades without a rail breaking, and that if trains have to slow down a bit for a quarter of a mile, the service should remain complete.

This is one of those things you just have to watch happen once in a control room to understand how quickly things turn bad when there’s an incident like this.

The amount of snowballing time an incident like this creates in one of the most intensively used bottlenecks in the country has to be seen to be believed. There really is very little slack, by design.

 

[riceuten]

I once had a long chat with a customer services manager about "control" and service recovery. This manager said

i) control valued putting trains back in the right place over passengers
ii) control are "too busy" doing i) to actually inform CS staff as to what is happening

I do recognise that there are multiple perspectives from this and "putting trains back in the right place" can occasionally benefit passengers, but this CSM spoke with a great deal of frustration that they were often unable to pass any information on to passengers because "control" wouldn't let them know what was happening, and that control would often take utterly ridiculous decisions leaving passengers stranded at unstaffed stations for hours on end, with no hope of alternative transport.

 

[Snow1964]

Given that Thameslink doesn’t have heavy freight locos or heavy freight wagons, and lots of it is on slab track which doesn’t bend like that on ballast wet spots, I am slightly surprised that rails are cracking.

Out of interest as it is a bottleneck, does it get more frequent visits of ultrasonic rail testing trains to early detect any potential rail flaws

 

[Class2ldn]

The problem with the Rainham is heading towards london they can only use the high level at London bridge, its not feasible to be turning them back there as its too busy and will cause more delays, its a shame that in the redesign of blackfriars no-one in their wisdom deemed it suitable to put points in to be able to terminate in the bays there from London bridge.

 

[JonathanH]

The problem with the Rainham is heading towards london they can only use the high level at London bridge, its not feasible to be turning them back there as its too busy and will cause more delays, its a shame that in the redesign of blackfriars no-one in their wisdom deemed it suitable to put points in to be able to terminate in the bays there from London bridge.

Is it really that difficult? If Cannon Street services use platform 2 up and platform 1 down at London Bridge, does it not leave platform 3 for reversals or for southbound Thameslink services to avoid a reversal in platform 4?

 

[Class2ldn]

London bridge is already a bottleneck, if you start taking out platform 3 you then knock on to the SE services.

 

[ComUtoR]

The problem with the Rainham is heading towards london they can only use the high level at London bridge, its not feasible to be turning them back there as its too busy and will cause more delays, its a shame that in the redesign of blackfriars no-one in their wisdom deemed it suitable to put points in to be able to terminate in the bays there from London bridge.

Come across on the Southwark reversible signal and then take two lefts ? *edit* yes, just checked, you can get into 10 and 11 via 9 rev *edit*

 

[DelayRepay]

Every time there's a problem on the Thameslink Core we have a thread like this.

I'm not sure there's an easy solution though - if there was it would have been implemented by now. I think this kind of disruption is the price of having a very intensive service from many locations through the core. The only way to avoid this kind of problem would be to significantly cut back services/destinations to provide much more slack in the timetable. Not sure that would be ideal when you consider that most days the service runs without a problem.

 

[Surreytraveller]

I once had a long chat with a customer services manager about "control" and service recovery. This manager said

i) control valued putting trains back in the right place over passengers
ii) control are "too busy" doing i) to actually inform CS staff as to what is happening

I do recognise that there are multiple perspectives from this and "putting trains back in the right place" can occasionally benefit passengers, but this CSM spoke with a great deal of frustration that they were often unable to pass any information on to passengers because "control" wouldn't let them know what was happening, and that control would often take utterly ridiculous decisions leaving passengers stranded at unstaffed stations for hours on end, with no hope of alternative transport.

Trouble is, if the trains aren't put back in the right place, the disruption goes on and on. And if they don't sort it out, it can cause cancellations days into the future as trains miss their maintenance slots
I thought the CS staff were in the same room? If so, they become aware of what's going on at the same time as control, don't they?

 

[DanNCL]

I think the bigger issue with not running the Rainham service is that it leaves Higham completely unserved.

 

[Mikey C]

Can't they reverse trains at City Thameslink, using the sidings there?

Either way, it's really frustrating how every time there's an issue with the core or NORTH of London (scheduled or not), the Rainham service bites the dust

 

[Class2ldn]

Come across on the Southwark reversible signal and then take two lefts ? *edit* yes, just checked, you can get into 10 and 11 via 9 rev *edit*

Not if they don't sign the low level lol, im pretty sure there's no route back towards Kent either

 

[c52]

I lived in Frankfurt for years and don't recall the S-Bahn ever being disrupted in this manner. (Nearly every suburban train is sent through the city in a two-track tunnel (the first station in the tunnel has four tracks)). For many of those years a 24 tph service was reversing in a two-track terminus. I thought it an incredible achievement at the time. It no doubt helped that the S-Bahn shared its tracks with few other trains.

 

[Deepgreen]

It's an extremely intensively-used section (and all 8 and 12 car trains) and I imagine flaws can exist in rails even if ultrasonically-tested before laying, and in use (is there a threshold for detected flaws below which it is considered OK?), so a broken rail is inevitable at some point. The service pattern and resource distribution leads to service problems and always will in any system involving legacy and new infrastructure.

 

[Minstral25]

Can't they reverse trains at City Thameslink, using the sidings there?

Either way, it's really frustrating how every time there's an issue with the core or NORTH of London (scheduled or not), the Rainham service bites the dust

Along with the Bedford to Gatwick's which provide the only service to certain stations south of the river. Occasionally they add calls to the Horsham services but hardly yesterday as they were disrupted too. Two gaps over 3 hours without the half-hourly service expected. Happens far to regular.

 

[westcoaster]

Can't they reverse trains at City Thameslink, using the sidings there?

Either way, it's really frustrating how every time there's an issue with the core or NORTH of London (scheduled or not), the Rainham service bites the dust

We saw the issues that caused previously, plus the change end time would block the core up even more.

With the way units are diagramed northbound at Bedford 9T's become 9R's and Vis versa. So major disruption spreads across multiple service patterns.

 

[whoosh]

You should hear the screeching as trains enter St Pancras - I'm not surprised a rail has cracked.

Can't they reverse trains at City Thameslink, using the sidings there?

You have to hold up the Northbound service to make sure the train is clear of passengers, before sending it on its way to the sidings.

Then you have to hold up the Northbound service again to let the train out of the sidings, and through the northbound platform, before it crosses over to the southbound line.

That would've added even more delay to a line already suffering from a 5mph snail's pace speed restriction.

 

[JonathanH]

With the way units are diagramed northbound at Bedford 9T's become 9R's and Vis versa. So major disruption spreads across multiple service patterns.

In major disruption '9R' gets cancelled and '9T' turns back at Bedford as '9T'.

9R = Bedford to Gatwick
9T = Bedford to Brighton

 

[Deepgreen]

You should hear the screeching as trains enter St Pancras - I'm not surprised a rail has cracked.


You have to hold up the Northbound service to make sure the train is clear of passengers, before sending it on its way to the sidings.

Then you have to hold up the Northbound service again to let the train out of the sidings, and through the northbound platform, before it crosses over to the southbound line.

That would've added even more delay to a line already suffering from a 5mph snail's pace speed restriction.

Yes - is there a flange lubricator there?

 

[zwk500]

Can't they reverse trains at City Thameslink, using the sidings there?

The sidings would make problems worse, as they are only accessible from the northbound platform and are only 8-cars long. There is a scissors crossover south of City TL to permit turning back in either platform. However turning back at City TL would need to consider the risk of the platforms becoming crowded as they are quite narrow in comparison to Blackfriars and St Pancras.

 

[Class2ldn]

Also don't forget the time it takes to clear the trains out , its just not feasible unfortunately. Part of the reason blackfriars depot closed was because of delays if a driver was late or missing and the effect it had on the core, even if you get a fault in the core they will try to move you out of it if possible as the knock on is huge.

 

[Edsmith]

I think the bigger issue with not running the Rainham service is that it leaves Higham completely unserved.

Don't HS trains call there if Thameslink isn't running?

Is it really that difficult? If Cannon Street services use platform 2 up and platform 1 down at London Bridge, does it not leave platform 3 for reversals or for southbound Thameslink services to avoid a reversal in platform 4?

Yes I would have thought so, platform's 1-3 aren't particularly busy most of the time.

 

[choochoochoo]

It's an extremely intensively-used section (and all 8 and 12 car trains) and I imagine flaws can exist in rails even if ultrasonically-tested before laying, and in use (is there a threshold for detected flaws below which it is considered OK?), so a broken rail is inevitable at some point. The service pattern and resource distribution leads to service problems and always will in any system involving legacy and new infrastructure.

ok so more of an infrastructure question really, but do the wheel flats (even if they're small) that some of these 700s are running around with contribute to the degrading of rails

 

[Horizon22]

I once had a long chat with a customer services manager about "control" and service recovery. This manager said

i) control valued putting trains back in the right place over passengers
ii) control are "too busy" doing i) to actually inform CS staff as to what is happening

I do recognise that there are multiple perspectives from this and "putting trains back in the right place" can occasionally benefit passengers, but this CSM spoke with a great deal of frustration that they were often unable to pass any information on to passengers because "control" wouldn't let them know what was happening, and that control would often take utterly ridiculous decisions leaving passengers stranded at unstaffed stations for hours on end, with no hope of alternative transport.

Well "Control" have to think about passengers as a big picture. With all due respect to this CSM, who is looking at the local needs of their area, if there is no semblanace of trains "back in the right place" the disruption will go on even longer because then crews and stock will be utterly displaced and then even more people will be disrupted for a longer period. Making short, sharp, prompt decisions can reduced the overall disruption, as can implementing arranged contingency plans.

As for communications, there's some truth in this but when the number of calls per hour goes from say 10 to 100, and the actions needed triples or quadruples, the number of staff within Control doesn't go up 10x, and calls have to be priortised on operational decisions. Occasionally this means that its hard to be abreast of every station issue at once which means there will be gaps in service. Especially true on Thameslink through the core which is very intense. In this instance you'd be looking at turning trains at St Pancras (High Level) and London Bridge, with maybe a service group able to use bays at Blackfriars (if they can weave within the Sevenoaks services). There will be unavoidable large gaps though because you've cut the capacity of the railway significantly - one of the flaws of through running a high-intensity service.

I'd always encourage station management or similar staff to visit their local Control (and vice versa) to see what its like; unfortunately these visits always seem to happen when there's no disruption and people are broadly twiddling their thumbs!

 

[westcoaster]

ok so more of an infrastructure question really, but do the wheel flats (even if they're small) that some of these 700s are running around with contribute to the degrading of rails

Can not say I have heard any lately, in fact 700's don't seem to suffer flats very much.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

In this case, could they have not stopped the trains at St Pancras, thus counter balancing the effect from the speed restriction and largely reducing the delays? Would not stopping be enough to make much difference?