Thameslink Services/Timetable from May 20th 2018

[Antman]

What do you think they should be doing? If they're on the barriers they're protecting revenue - they're checking tickets. They can't actually go anywhere as then the gates have to be open and they wouldn't be doing their job.
Frontline staff get no help and often no information from control. This has been the case for years, but it's been well hidden until now by staff being able to make educated guesses as to what will happen. That's more or less impossible with the way things are now and the public are being shown what it's like to have no information.

Does it really need 3 or 4 members of staff on the ticket gates at Hitchin?

 

[paul332]

Thameslink Triumph

Oh dear! Modern Ralways for June is just out, and the title page story has the splash heading "Thameslink Triumph".

I suspect that Mr Editor Abbott is feeling not a little embarrassment this weekend, having committed the journalist's cardinal sin of writing a news story before it has happened, getting caught out, and/or believing the Thameslink PR team a little too much.

Mr G Freeman Allen will be turning in his grave.

I suppose the physical infrastructure part is a triumph; it's just the operational overlay that's one of the worst disasters ever in terms of service implementation and customer relations. At this point in time it looks like like £16Billion down the drain, which could have reopened quite a few mis-closed lines and stations and genuinely benefited people.

But hey-ho, we are where we are and perhaps with a change of operator (sooner rather than later) and some inspired planning and execution we may yet achieve a worthwhile and reliable RER-type operation. What this now needs is a project team of the calibre of Crossrail, HS1 or HS2 to grab it by the spherical bits and convert the debacle into the aforementioned triumph.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Trains are distrupted on the Medway route again I see.

But I guess I shouldn’t complain because I need to think about all those wonderful journey opportunities.

There’s a petition in Medway calling for a return to the old timetable, which frankly should happen, no one asked for Thameslink, even the rail staff at Rochester agree its a shambles, im glad I didn’t commute yesterday, heard that trains ran fast from London Bridge to Dartford

 

[hwl]

At this point in time it looks like like £16Billion down the drain, which could have reopened quite a few mis-closed lines and stations and genuinely benefited people.

£7bn for everything most of which would need doing any way. I think you're getting your cost muddled with Crossrail...

 

[bramling]

Although I'm not that surprised it happened at Hitchin. People have long days at work and it's often not much fun, and it doesn't go unnoticed that after a horrible day, there are three or four station staff hanging around the sole ticket gates in that station just having a great time and not appearing to be doing very much. Thousands of people walk past them every morning and evening. I know it gets noticed, because I've heard people commenting on it. In most lines of work you can't do that sort of thing in a public-facing role, and this is partly the reason why, because it's easy to form opinions about people that may not be strictly true, and once that has happened, it's already too late — with so many people about, there will always be some who have turned staff into a caricature and no longer have any respect for them. Not saying it was right, but as I said, just not surprised it happened there.

This is the fragmented railway for you - station staff have little involvement in the running of the railway, so it's no surprise they're well out of the loop when things go wrong.

Station staff are likely as pissed off as everyone else, they're the ones getting it in the neck constantly, as a result of the Thameslink Shambles. Where's Horton? When Southern was under Chris Burchell it wasn't unheard of for him to appear on stations during disruption - I remember seeing him at Haywards Heath assisting during a major signal failure.

 

[GordonT]

I hope one of his more famous journalists (Mr Roger Ford) is travelling this weekend. Although he would need to live in a bubble not to be hearing about the anger of the whole thing.

He has already "tweeted" re. yesterday evening as follows:
Roger Ford‏ @Captain_Deltic 18h18 hours ago
"16.11, 16.41 and 17.11 @GNRailUK Huntingdon - Stevenage services all cancelled this evening. Can't we even manage a temporary hourly service? Embarrassing."

 

[Fred26]

Does it really need 3 or 4 members of staff on the ticket gates at Hitchin?

I can't answer that, I'm afraid. I don't know what the Hitchin station plan says is necessary. I know little about their rostering requirements.

 

[otomous]

Does it really need 3 or 4 members of staff on the ticket gates at Hitchin?

Does it seem likely that GTR would pay for four if they were not needed?

 

[87015]

I am led to believe that Network Rail refused Southern stopping paths as they had already given paths for the diverted Southeastern based on the old timetable.

Yes, thats how planning works. If you (GTR) don’t bid on time to the late timescales already “agreed” (GTR enforced in sussex) and then don’t bid around other operators, NR don’t have any doors other than to reject.

 

[MrCub]

Luton/St Albans today. The typical frequency of 4 semi fasts per hour and 2 stoppers has been reduced to... one train per half hour. No stoppers at all from Luton (although some starting at St Albans). From what I've seen and read, this is good compared to other parts of the network. It really is an embarrassment.

 

[Class 466]

Trains are distrupted on the Medway route again I see.

But I guess I shouldn’t complain because I need to think about all those wonderful journey opportunities.

There’s a petition in Medway calling for a return to the old timetable, which frankly should happen, no one asked for Thameslink, even the rail staff at Rochester agree its a shambles, im glad I didn’t commute yesterday, heard that trains ran fast from London Bridge to Dartford

So long as you are aware that no petition will change anything now and this is the timetable in Kent from now until December 2022 - then all is good. There’s no easy way for the timetable to return to the old one especially as by the time it actually happened - half the depots wouldn’t sign beyond Gravesend.

 

[richieb1971]

I read back a couple of pages and didn't see this -

http://www.thecomet.net/motoring/re...train-doors-to-get-stops-reinstated-1-5533772

‘Revolution at Hitchin’ as commuters block train doors to get stops reinstated

Frustrated commuters defiantly blocked train doors at Hitchin railway station yesterday in a successful protest against the last-minute removal of Arlesey, Biggleswade and Sandy stops.


Firstly, why is Bedfordshire picked on here? Its a conspiracy.

 

[Class465fan]

So long as you are aware that no petition will change anything now and this is the timetable in Kent from now until December 2022 - then all is good. There’s no easy way for the timetable to return to the old one especially as by the time it actually happened - half the depots wouldn’t sign beyond Gravesend.

Expect GTR to lose many of their passengers if they let this poor excuse of a timetable run until 2022 or 2021.

 

[Bishopstone]

All of the GTR brand Twitter feeds have suspended service for the afternoon, due to ‘unforseen circumstances’.

 

[IrishDave]

All of the GTR brand Twitter feeds have suspended service for the afternoon, due to ‘unforseen circumstances’.

I noticed that. Any business can be beset by sudden absences due to illness or emergencies, and GTR is no different. On its own it could be ignored.

Nonetheless, to have the Twitter feed unstaffed on a Bank Holiday Saturday, when they're running a Thameslink timetable that's been cobbled together at the last minute, is more than a little unfortunate. Is this a sign that GTR's human resourcing has problems beyond those of its drivers?

 

[SA_900]

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 5 characters.

 

[Megafuss]

I noticed that. Any business can be beset by sudden absences due to illness or emergencies, and GTR is no different. On its own it could be ignored.

Nonetheless, to have the Twitter feed unstaffed on a Bank Holiday Saturday, when they're running a Thameslink timetable that's been cobbled together at the last minute, is more than a little unfortunate. Is this a sign that GTR's human resourcing has problems beyond those of its drivers?

If you have zero confidence in those above you and you are left to deal with the rubbish that is todays "service" I'd be tempted to throw a sickie to be honest, especially if I was feeling stressed by it (above and beyond "normal" bad days you would get in the job). I know that is unprofessional, but for some people that might he the only way they can send a message to management.

Obviously we don't know what has happened in this case.

 

[NorthKent1989]

So long as you are aware that no petition will change anything now and this is the timetable in Kent from now until December 2022 - then all is good. There’s no easy way for the timetable to return to the old one especially as by the time it actually happened - half the depots wouldn’t sign beyond Gravesend.

Not necessarily, if there is enough political clout, to which I believe many MP's in the areas affected will receive many complaints and petitions then they will have to change it, you can't have trains mysteriously disappear, like the 1707 from Greenwich to Luton, no announcements to say why this service will no.longer run no info whatsoever, no one will put up with this for four more years, the kinks and the problem areas should have been sorted by the 20th of May so why are there issues still? The timetable will have to be sorted and changed maybe not within this year but definitely before 2022.

 

[Bromley boy]

Not necessarily, if there is enough political clout, to which I believe many MP's in the areas affected will receive many complaints and petitions then they will have to change it, you can't have trains mysteriously disappear, like the 1707 from Greenwich to Luton, no announcements to say why this service will no.longer run no info whatsoever, no one will put up with this for four more years, the kinks and the problem areas should have been sorted by the 20th of May so why are there issues still? The timetable will have to be sorted and changed maybe not within this year but definitely before 2022.

If I were a Medway commuter I’d be thoroughly p*ssed off.

As we have seen from the other thread, it does seem that the loss of the semi-fast SE Gillingham service isn’t really going to be offset by the slow GTR services, even once the current diabolical shambles of the new timetable is sorted out.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Expect GTR to lose many of their passengers if they let this poor excuse of a timetable run until 2022 or 2021.

Exactly, today I thought I would take the Thameslink to Greenwich from Rochester direct, only to find trains are delayed, I then make my way to Gravesend to get a train to Dartford and change for a Blackheath train and walk to Greenwich to see my cousin, we're now heading to London where there are no Luton trains at all! Only Cannon Street trains, its an absolute joke, the old timetable should return with immediate effect and halt Thameslink's overambitious expansion to just a few outer suburban/interurban lines

 

[bramling]

I read back a couple of pages and didn't see this -

http://www.thecomet.net/motoring/re...train-doors-to-get-stops-reinstated-1-5533772

‘Revolution at Hitchin’ as commuters block train doors to get stops reinstated

Frustrated commuters defiantly blocked train doors at Hitchin railway station yesterday in a successful protest against the last-minute removal of Arlesey, Biggleswade and Sandy stops.


Firstly, why is Bedfordshire picked on here? Its a conspiracy.

Simple - beyond Hitchin the basic frequency is 2tph, and on the Peterborough service there aren’t many other stops to remove - only Stevenage and Hitchin, which have also suffered on many services. This is what Thameslink delivers - late running, unpredictability, unreliability, then measures needed to try to get the timetable back. The only way to avoid this is to get rid of the disastrous through running, which is something people will need to campaign for. It doesn’t work with infrequent services. You will notice most of the pro-Thameslink lot are from St Albans, with a 20-minute hop to London and at least 8tph to choose from. As long as St Albans does okay it’s stuff anyone else.

(Having said that I notice the Thameslink apologists are rather absent at the moment. Does St Albans hibernate over bank holiday weekends?)

 

[NorthKent1989]

If I were a Medway commuter I’d be thoroughly p*ssed off.

As we have seen from the other thread, it does seem that the loss of the semi-fast SE Gillingham service isn’t really going to be offset by the slow GTR services, even once the current diabolical shambles of the new timetable is sorted out.

Thameslink has become a swear word down in Medway even station staff are furious, the old timetable must return, its utter chaos, the only Thameslink service running through the core it seems is the classic Brighton to Bedford route.

 

[sefton]

I read back a couple of pages and didn't see this -

http://www.thecomet.net/motoring/re...train-doors-to-get-stops-reinstated-1-5533772

‘Revolution at Hitchin’ as commuters block train doors to get stops reinstated

Frustrated commuters defiantly blocked train doors at Hitchin railway station yesterday in a successful protest against the last-minute removal of Arlesey, Biggleswade and Sandy stops.


Firstly, why is Bedfordshire picked on here? Its a conspiracy.

That creates a good precident. Perhaps they will think twice now before being so cavalier about cancelling stops.

 

[Fred26]

Simple - beyond Hitchin the basic frequency is 2tph, and on the Peterborough service there aren’t many other stops to remove - only Stevenage and Hitchin, which have also suffered on many services. This is what Thameslink delivers - late running, unpredictability, unreliability, then measures needed to try to get the timetable back. The only way to avoid this is to get rid of the disastrous through running, which is something people will need to campaign for. It doesn’t work with infrequent services. You will notice most of the pro-Thameslink lot are from St Albans, with a 20-minute hop to London and at least 8tph to choose from. As long as St Albans does okay it’s stuff anyone else.

(Having said that I notice the Thameslink apologists are rather absent at the moment. Does St Albans hibernate over bank holiday weekends?)

You may yet prove to be right, but until the timetable has actually had a chance to fail on its own terms I don't think a judgement should be made. The service since the timetable changed has been awful, there's no doubt about that, but it is largely due to 2 issues: general shortage of drivers, which has been going on for years, and secondly and more importantly: GTR not training enough drivers for the 700s. Once these issues are sorted, particularly the latter, we will be able to properly judge through running. I don't know if it'll work.

My opinion is it probably won't because a signal fault or fatality etc south of the river will cause massive problems. However, I'm open minded enough to wait and see. I've never been sure about running Peterborough and Cambridge trains through the core. I would have liked to have seen WGC/HFN-core or long distance stuff - Kings Lynn, Lincoln, York. Having said that running WGC/HFN away from Moorgate causes two issues - what then runs into Moorgate, and there is no extra freed up capacity at Kings Cross. If IC services were run through then they could be severely impacted with delays especially given their infrequent service. If the line was new build, with limited outside interaction then both of these options would be preferable, but unfortunately it isn't. To sum up, I think we've probably got the best compromise as it ticks boxes of longer trains, more capacity, higher frequency (in places), gives passengers options for changing to the tube, and creates capacity at Kings Cross.

 

[NorthKent1989]

You may yet prove to be right, but until the timetable has actually had a chance to fail on its own terms I don't think a judgement should be made. The service since the timetable changed has been awful, there's no doubt about that, but it is largely due to 2 issues: general shortage of drivers, which has been going on for years, and secondly and more importantly: GTR not training enough drivers for the 700s. Once these issues are sorted, particularly the latter, we will be able to properly judge through running. I don't know if it'll work.

My opinion is it probably won't because a signal fault or fatality etc south of the river will cause massive problems. However, I'm open minded enough to wait and see. I've never been sure about running Peterborough and Cambridge trains through the core. I would have liked to have seen WGC/HFN-core or long distance stuff - Kings Lynn, Lincoln, York. Having said that running WGC/HFN away from Moorgate causes two issues - what then runs into Moorgate, and there is no extra freed up capacity at Kings Cross. If IC services were run through then they could be severely impacted with delays especially given their infrequent service. If the line was new build, with limited outside interaction then both of these options would be preferable, but unfortunately it isn't. To sum up, I think we've probably got the best compromise as it ticks boxes of longer trains, more capacity, higher frequency (in places), gives passengers options for changing to the tube, and creates capacity at Kings Cross.

Let’s not forget that there are far more Southern branches to Thameslink than in north of the river, Thameslink should not ever had aimed for 24tph nor should it have grown to the size of a large scale inter urban metro system, what should have happened is that Thameslink only expands to inner suburban rail routes like the Catford loop and the Sutton loop in addition to Dartford routes but via Bexleyheath and Sidcup instead of via Greenwich and the Woolwich line down to Gravesend and Medway.

 

[Antman]

Let’s not forget that there are far more Southern branches to Thameslink than in north of the river, Thameslink should not ever had aimed for 24tph nor should it have grown to the size of a large scale inter urban metro system, what should have happened is that Thameslink only expands to inner suburban rail routes like the Catford loop and the Sutton loop in addition to Dartford routes but via Bexleyheath and Sidcup instead of via Greenwich and the Woolwich line down to Gravesend and Medway.

Whilst I agree that Thameslink should never have come to the Medway Towns I think the rest of it is fine and why not 24tph, surely we need to make the most of it?

 

[ComUtoR]

Southern diagrams now try to prevent crew and trains swapping between mainline and metro routes and this does seem to be working reasonably well. It’s a shame, then, that SE are clearly not sharing that aim!

We tend not to swap between mainline and metro but our metro areas is vast. Drivers can see Vic, Cannon and Cross all in the same day as well as all the way down to Gillingham and out to Hayes etc.

I am on the fence with crew diagrams and keeping the same unit for multiple trips. The flip side is that when you get a Driver problem it cancels their entire workings. I have had 4/5 trips cancelled just because of a single issue. Same with the units. If your unit fails it means that half your diagram and consequently each of your services gets cancelled.

It's a hard balance to maintain.

Todays huge planning error shows how fragile the entire system truly is.

 

[nlogax]

If I were a Medway commuter I’d be thoroughly p*ssed off.

Until recently I'd considered moving to that part of the world. This situation has persuaded me to stay put, or at least look elsewhere. Commuters there have just received the rawest of raw deals. Appalling mess and for no good reason that I can make out.

 

[fergusjbend]

A face-saving solution will have to be found, and found soon, or the whole railway industry and the travelling public will pay the price. Thameslink, like the banks, is too big to fail. The politicians know that bad railways loose votes, but spending money to make them better seems to be just as unpopular. If Thameslink has to be pruned back in a blaze of publicity because the operator is too incompetent to make it work, and after the failure of NR to electrify the GWML and MML, the government is likely to conclude that railways are an electoral and financial black hole and that they would do much better to spend the money on the NHS instead.

 

[jon0844]

It does sound extremely dubious. Is this the first anyone’s heard of any engineering works for this weekend?

There is a mention on engineering work posters for work this bank holiday weekend. I am not sure what it actually is, but can say that there really was engineering work planned some time ago for this weekend.

It doesn't seem related to the 'tear up the timetable' plans that operated today and will until Monday. I do know that there are some 30-40 buses for Hatfield running tomorrow evening to lessen the impact of up to 10,000 festival goers all wanting to get back to London between 2200 and midnight!