Thameslink trains becomming tired already?

[bramling]

I'm sorry but I think that is gross hyperbole. Merseyrail style "hit squads" equipped with bodycams could absolutely patrol these trains safely, and it would, as it did on Merseyside, make a huge difference if they did.

I don’t know, it is getting to the point where real proper scum is prevalent in parts of London.

Whilst there are elements of this in the likes of Greater Manchester or Merseyside, in such places it’s still very much the exception, and there’s still a general respect for people in positions of authority.

 

[jon0844]

I'm sorry but I think that is gross hyperbole. Merseyrail style "hit squads" equipped with bodycams could absolutely patrol these trains safely, and it would, as it did on Merseyside, make a huge difference if they did.

Hence proving my point. You need the right people to enforce, not a passenger host. REOs, Travelsafe officers, BTP or whatever - usually with the relevant clothing (like a stab vest).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hence proving my point. You need the right people to enforce, not a passenger host. REOs, Travelsafe officers, BTP or whatever - usually with the relevant clothing (like a stab vest).

Who said a passenger host/guard/OBS/whatever?

All along I've said to copy Merseyrail. It'd be nice if they were more professional as security guards in mainland Europe usually are, but if it's that bad it may be fine that they are a bit thuggy, as that way the local chavvery might actually fear them a bit.

But your point seemed to suggest that only actual Police (armed?) could do the job and that it was so dangerous a squad like this couldn't, and that's, as I said, gross hyperbole. It's bad, but it's not that bad.

Whilst there are elements of this in the likes of Greater Manchester or Merseyside, in such places it’s still very much the exception, and there’s still a general respect for people in positions of authority.

To be fair I have long held a view that the Northern scally and the Southern chav were a bit different in character, which justified different terms being used for them. The Northern scally might smash up the bus shelter or throw a brick at a train for a laugh with his (almost always male) mates after a can or three of cheap cider in a bus shelter, but if a Policeman or security guard comes they'll just run off as there is, as you say, a genuine fear of/respect for authority where it is present. A typical Merseyside scally would likely engage in casual fare evasion, but wouldn't assault the gateline staff at Liverpool Central, say, they'd just sneak in by getting off at Brunswick or Sandhills where there are no gates. Whereas a London chav would smash up the bus shelter due to genuine malicious feelings and probably assault the gateline staff to get a free trip.

On the other hand I do think the Merseyrail style zero tolerance approach would work. It originates in principle from New York, where, partly due to the addition of handguns to the mix, the kinds of crime and effects of them make south London look like a rural Cotswold village.

 

[jon0844]

I never suggested you needed armed police to patrol the trains. You need people with the relevant powers and protection (this does mean a stab vest) to deal with people who are vandalising the trains, from the graffiti and tagging, to cutting up seats (with knives, not the end of a key to etch a window). Basically, exactly what you've suggested. I said REOs or Travelsafe officers could do this (and they're not police), and at a stretch BTP even if only on a few random trains for a few weeks here and there. Passenger hosts or OBS aren't there to do that sort of thing and will be told to absolutely NOT get involved with gangs of kids vandalising a train - just report to those who need to know.

Even late at night, when they must work in pairs, they will still not be able to deal with these people.

I'm sure everyone can come up with worse examples of behaviour, but some of these stations in the south east are unstaffed and you can't just throw one person on a train and expect them to deal with things as they are now.

It's worth noting that stations like Sevenoaks are fine, so it's not the whole line by any means. It's the same with some of the stations between Luton and Bedford.

 

[bramling]

I never suggested you needed armed police to patrol the trains. You need people with the relevant powers and protection (this does mean a stab vest) to deal with people who are vandalising the trains, from the graffiti and tagging, to cutting up seats (with knives, not the end of a key to etch a window). Basically, exactly what you've suggested. I said REOs or Travelsafe officers could do this (and they're not police), and at a stretch BTP even if only on a few random trains for a few weeks here and there. Passenger hosts or OBS aren't there to do that sort of thing and will be told to absolutely NOT get involved with gangs of kids vandalising a train - just report to those who need to know.

Even late at night, when they must work in pairs, they will still not be able to deal with these people.

I'm sure everyone can come up with worse examples of behaviour, but some of these stations in the south east are unstaffed and you can't just throw one person on a train and expect them to deal with things as they are now.

It's worth noting that stations like Sevenoaks are fine, so it's not the whole line by any means. It's the same with some of the stations between Luton and Bedford.

It’s rather regrettable that the GN route is now suffering from the effects of this. We never had this before Thameslink. The 365 fleet in particular rarely suffered from vandalism, and that fleet didn’t even have CCTV. The worst we had was chavs travelling between Stevenage and Hatfield, and that was nothing really.

 

[jon0844]

It's a shame, but I'd still like to see Sevenoaks trains running all day to use the path saved by not running 2Cxx/2Rxx trains to Kent as that does at least give a lot more stations connections to the core.

 

[bramling]

It's a shame, but I'd still like to see Sevenoaks trains running all day to use the path saved by not running 2Cxx/2Rxx trains to Kent as that does at least give a lot more stations connections to the core.

How about naming that service “County Lines”?!

 

[jon0844]

How about naming that service “County Lines”?!

Haha! Nice, although a few TOCs might want to be able to use the same branding.

 

[Dougal2345]

I guess CCTV in toilets isn't possible (?) but could there not be sensors in the toilets that detect paint fumes, and then allow CCTV of the person exiting the toilet to be flagged as the culprit?

Or a CCTV camera that is activated when the toilet door is open, so it can show person entering toilet with clean walls, person leaving with vandalised walls?

 

[Jonno5114]

Thanks for all the input so far everyone

 

[dub]

Many of the units have a dirty stripe that starts by the cab door and continues along side of first car , this seems to be caused by onboard flange lubrication system fitted to leading wheelset being defective, a small pipe either side becoming detached and spraying side of train rather than wheel sets , the visual appearance looks like the unit has been driven through a field .

is that this sort of line you're talking about? you're right i do see quite a few units running around with this mark but wasn't sure where it was coming from.

 

[PG]

is that this sort of line you're talking about? you're right i do see quite a few units running around with this mark but wasn't sure where it was coming from.

I'm curious about the purpose of the arc shaped fixture next to the bodyside camera in your photo?

 

[aleggatta]

I'm curious about the purpose of the arc shaped fixture next to the bodyside camera in your photo?

Pretty sure on 377s we called them 'Doo Deflectors'. Sort of across between a physical barrier to prevent damage to the glass covering the lens, and trying to help with glare on the lens. Not sure it did either particularly well but it was an effort.

 

[PG]

Pretty sure on 377s we called them 'Doo Deflectors'. Sort of across between a physical barrier to prevent damage to the glass covering the lens, and trying to help with glare on the lens. Not sure it did either particularly well but it was an effort.

Thanks. Every day's a school day

 

[AlastairFraser]

I don’t have a problem with enforcement, however - as you say - “rentathug” brings its own issues. A professionalised version of that is the solution.

Now for something that’s pretty bad in the evenings, and at some other times, there’s Tyne & Wear Metro. That is quite an experience, especially in the rear car which is essentially left to its own devices, but even in the front car the presence of the driver doesn’t really do much in practice.

Dread to think what Metrolink is like. Thankfully I’ve never had the experience of the airport route in the evening, but I can certainly imagine.

Just to note, it's not the Airport line you want to avoid at night on the Metrolink. It's the Oldham and Rochdale Line! There's crackheads fighting there on the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just to note, it's not the Airport line you want to avoid at night on the Metrolink. It's the Oldham and Rochdale Line! There's crackheads fighting there on the day.

Most of it suffers to some extent because Piccadilly Gardens is an utter hive of antisocial behaviour that for some reason the Police just won't seem to intervene on, despite the fact that they could fill the cells up every night if they just sent one squad down there.

It's like the pickpocketing issue on La Rambla in Barcelona - so bad, and so obviously easy to police, that you sometimes wonder if they're in on it.

(I don't really mean the latter in Manchester's case; I wouldn't be surprised if they were in Barcelona's).

 

[AlastairFraser]

Most of it suffers to some extent because Piccadilly Gardens is an utter hive of antisocial behaviour that for some reason the Police just won't seem to intervene on, despite the fact that they could fill the cells up every night if they just sent one squad down there.

GMP are constantly down there, but Mcr City Centre has so many professional beggers and druggies that it's a losing fight.
Oldham and Rochdale can still get worse than any tram passing through Picc though.

 

[MML]

I'd quite like there to be sensors in the toilet to detect the application of paint and to lock the door firmly shut.

The door could be released once BTP arrive to arrest the offender and the evidence of the offence would still be present.
And if the BTP are late attending, then the little scrote can remain trapped while doing a few circuits of the Catford loop.

 

[Magdalia]

The 365 fleet in particular rarely suffered from vandalism, and that fleet didn’t even have CCTV.

That's not correct. All of the GN EMU fleet were retro-fitted with CCTV at Hornsey. It was one of the quick wins when First Capital connect took over.

I guess CCTV in toilets isn't possible (?) but could there not be sensors in the toilets that detect paint fumes, and then allow CCTV of the person exiting the toilet to be flagged as the culprit?

That would need to be able to distinguish between paint odours and toiletries or make up such as deodorant or nail polish.

 

[jon0844]

365s never got CCTV. They weren't immune to graffiti, but it never got as bad and was usually cleaned quickly.

Hornsey could presumably do it quickly then, but on the 700s I don't believe anyone is allowed to use the necessary chemicals, except Siemens.

So at best you get a pinkish smeary mess as someone tries and fails to clean with regular cleaning materials.

 

[AM9]

I'd quite like there to be sensors in the toilet to detect the application of paint and to lock the door firmly shut.

The door could be released once BTP arrive to arrest the offender and the evidence of the offence would still be present.
And if the BTP are late attending, then the little scrote can remain trapped while doing a few circuits of the Catford loop.

Any sort of locking designed to prevent self exit from any part of the train available to the public would be a safety failure, however precious the internal decor was.

 

[bramling]

That's not correct. All of the GN EMU fleet were retro-fitted with CCTV at Hornsey. It was one of the quick wins when First Capital connect took over.

The 365s definitely never had it. The 313 317 and 321 fleets did, but the 365s didn’t.

I always found it quite liberating that the 365s *didn’t* have it. By the late 2010s it represented one of the few places outside home where one could spend an hour and not be on CCTV.

 

[43066]

I'd quite like there to be sensors in the toilet to detect the application of paint and to lock the door firmly shut.

The door could be released once BTP arrive to arrest the offender and the evidence of the offence would still be present.
And if the BTP are late attending, then the little scrote can remain trapped while doing a few circuits of the Catford loop.

Or electrically connect the toilet exit button to the shoe gear, as soon as paint is detected .

 

[alex397]

Every toilet I have been in on the 700s has been covered in graffiti, though I am not a regular user.

Interesting to hear about the anti-social behaviour on UK public transport. I’ve travelled plenty of times at night in the UK and the continent, and it’s the UK which I often find has problems. Can’t think of many places I’ve felt unsafe on public transport on the continent (apart from Paris), and that’s when they usually have no barriers and little staff! UK can feel intimidating and unsafe even with better security.
(I’m not saying that it isn’t an issue in other countries, but this is just my personal experience)

 

[jagardner1984]

You wonder whether mini monitors - as seen at some supermarket Self Checkouts - next to a camera pointing at the door, might be a good “you are being recorded” reminder.

The issue remains the complete lack of consequence - the perception (however accurate or not) that contacting law enforcement is a waste of time in such a wide range of circumstances - that “it’s only a bit of paint” certainly doesn’t warrant a call (they don’t turn up to a wide range of more directly affecting crimes, and those they do often hours or days later). Crime statistics clearly, on this basis, represent little of what actual people experience of actual crime.

Ultimately CCTV was presented as a cheap alternative for having people (as discussed above) as an active security feature. It’ll be monitored, they said, and police called as appropriate. Then the people monitoring replaced by a hard drive as a cheaper alternative. Now the best we can hope is that someone will find an image 2 days later when it is noted.

It is hard to see how it will improve without the reintroduction of human beings at some point in the security process.

A twelve car Class 700 can carry over 1700 people. In the last year pre Covid, over 348 million passenger journeys were made on Thameslink.

Having two people on each train (in whatever role) and the stations staffed during the hours of operation does not seem to me to be an excessive or outrageous demand.

 

[Sm5]

Every toilet I have been in on the 700s has been covered in graffiti, though I am not a regular user.

Interesting to hear about the anti-social behaviour on UK public transport. I’ve travelled plenty of times at night in the UK and the continent, and it’s the UK which I often find has problems. Can’t think of many places I’ve felt unsafe on public transport on the continent (apart from Paris), and that’s when they usually have no barriers and little staff! UK can feel intimidating and unsafe even with better security.

Paris and Frankfurt metros definitely have their moments.

Ultimately CCTV was presented as a cheap alternative for having people (as discussed above) as an active security feature. It’ll be monitored, they said, and police called as appropriate. Then the people monitoring replaced by a hard drive as a cheaper alternative. Now the best we can hope is that someone will find an image 2 days later when it is noted.

It is hard to see how it will improve without the reintroduction of human beings at some point in the security process.

AI will do it.

The tech exists to be able to ID the culprit, even before the offence is reported, probably within a few seconds of the crime being noted, if the cameras are in the right place and connected.

Indeed AI could well become a future train ticket.. your face recognised throughout your journey from entry to exit, even maybe predicting your habit and destination.

Just add sound to cctv and they could even convict themselves before leaving the train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Paris and Frankfurt metros definitely have their moments.

Germany has a massive graffiti problem, in particular northern Germany but to some extent all of it, it's because of the strongly Americanised youth culture there. There's barely a surface in the major cities that isn't tagged, and it really is unpleasant. And I say that being a Germanophile generally, and not minding artistic graffiti on boring grey concrete walls - but tagging is like dropping litter or letting your dog defecate in the middle of the high street - a dirty habit.

AI will do it.

The tech exists to be able to ID the culprit, even before the offence is reported, probably within a few seconds of the crime being noted, if the cameras are in the right place and connected.

Indeed AI could well become a future train ticket.. your face recognised throughout your journey from entry to exit, even maybe predicting your habit and destination.

Just add sound to cctv and they could even convict themselves before leaving the train.

It's alarming beyond words that such things carry support. Perhaps everyone supporting such things, rather than just proper in-person policing, should consider relocating somewhere like China or North Korea and we could be rid of it?

In my view facial recognition on CCTV and audio CCTV anywhere other than specific types of workplace like aircraft cockpits should be banned outright, not encouraged. The privacy issues it causes are immense.

 

[43066]

In my view facial recognition on CCTV and audio CCTV anywhere other than specific types of workplace like aircraft cockpits should be banned outright, not encouraged. The privacy issues it causes are immense.

I completely agree. Hopefully that will happen in time.

 

[Sm5]

It's alarming beyond words that such things carry support. Perhaps everyone supporting such things, rather than just proper in-person policing, should consider relocating somewhere like China or North Korea and we could be rid of it?

In my view facial recognition on CCTV and audio CCTV anywhere other than specific types of workplace like aircraft cockpits should be banned outright, not encouraged. The privacy issues it causes are immense.

yet you are using the internet, where multiple records of user activity are logged by dozens of software and hardware devices between user and server.

and having a live microphone sending your data to the same internet destinations in peoples houses has become an acceptable norm…Alexa, Siri…

Even your doorbell comes with cctv and sound.. Ring

Behind off of this are algorithms looking to exploit you, yet its acceptable. So why not for solving crime and improving journeys in public places ?

With the ipad noting your inner thoughts, alexa listening to your rationale, and the doorbell is watching you… your home is far less private. Your ISP is logging you, websites are selling your thoughts to media agencies who then customise your adverts…. indeed going to a public place gives you more privacy than your lounge, because no one, including technology operators cares, unless your the subject of interest upto no good.

Moderator note: the discussion regarding the above topic is continued at the following thread:

Audio CCTV and AI enforcement

yet you are using the internet, where multiple records of user activity are logged by dozens of software and hardware devices between user and server. and having a live microphone sending your data to the same internet destinations in peoples houses has become an acceptable norm…Alexa, Siri…...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[jagardner1984]

I’m reminded of driverless cars. Theoretically they are much safer than human drivers. They are all interlinked and maintain speeds etc.

However the public find the notion of one Granny being flattened by “the computer gone wrong” so unacceptable they prefer the human drivers who, statistically, are much more likely to flatten her.

Since half the time my phone AI lock function declares that my face isn’t my face (!), I can’t see people being sentenced on the basis of AI identification any time soon.