The annual "Boxing Day Trains" row.

[infobleep]

It must be in their contract. If it wasn't then the drivers would not have worked as they are not working any non-contractural overtime. The service has been running for so many years the drivers are used to it as part of their normal T&C.

There must have been a period when it wasn't running though, unless it never ceased.

 

[74A]

There must have been a period when it wasn't running though, unless it never ceased.

Southern have been running a boxing day service for as long as I can remember. I think even in BR days they would run to Gatwick.

 

[SPADTrap]

Good for you, doesn't mean that others feel the same though.

Meaningless unless those who feel different are those in the job

 

[II]

So, to sum it up, it seems there are three different opinions:

1) There are those that think Boxing Day should have no trains, whether there's a demand or not, as railway staff are entitled to a Christmas break.

2) There are those that think it's too difficult to implement because if you rely on volunteers you might not get enough of them (despite evidence to the contrary from some of the TOCs that do run), or whether they might all decide to not turn up on the day. Additionally if you try and amend drivers contracts you're asking for a load of trouble with the unions.

3) And there are those that share my view that you would be able to get enough volunteers to run a core service on most TOC routes and that as the years go by the demand increases more and more for a return to a reasonable Boxing Day service. The railway industry is there to serve the needs of the public not its employees, though it's also nice to give its employees the option of earning good money for those of them for whom working Boxing Day would not be a problem.

All three of which are perfectly valid opinions of course. I'd put good money on both Crossrail and Overground routes running a decent Boxing Day service within the next few years, but I'll be interested to see how things change for other TOC's as time goes by.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm no religion, however I still like the idea of two relatively peaceful days.

And that's fine - provided it stays voluntary, which I believe it should, don't volunteer.

I don't however think those who do not wish to volunteer should be able to tell others whether they should volunteer or not.

 

[dk1]

And that's fine - provided it stays voluntary, which I believe it should, don't volunteer.

I don't however think those who do not wish to volunteer should be able to tell others whether they should volunteer or not.

I agree with that Neil. Good luck to any employee who wishes to volunteer as its nobody else's business. As long as nobody dictates that I should be expected to move a finger on Christmas or Boxing Day then I'm a happy bunny

 

[Robertj21a]

Meaningless unless those who feel different are those in the job

Not at all meaningless. I doubt that the same one view is shared by absolutely everyone else.

 

[Bellbell]

So, to sum it up, it seems there are three different opinions:

1) There are those that think Boxing Day should have no trains, whether there's a demand or not, as railway staff are entitled to a Christmas break.

2) There are those that think it's too difficult to implement because if you rely on volunteers you might not get enough of them (despite evidence to the contrary from some of the TOCs that do run), or whether they might all decide to not turn up on the day. Additionally if you try and amend drivers contracts you're asking for a load of trouble with the unions.

3) And there are those that share my view that you would be able to get enough volunteers to run a core service on most TOC routes and that as the years go by the demand increases more and more for a return to a reasonable Boxing Day service. The railway industry is there to serve the needs of the public not its employees, though it's also nice to give its employees the option of earning good money for those of them for whom working Boxing Day would not be a problem.

All three of which are perfectly valid opinions of course. I'd put good money on both Crossrail and Overground routes running a decent Boxing Day service within the next few years, but I'll be interested to see how things change for other TOC's as time goes by.

No, there are also those of us who don't object to others working on Boxing Day providing it is on a purely voluntary basis but are fearful that what starts off voluntary will become compulsory in years to come. This view is heightened by comments such as 'as the years go by the demand increases more and more for a return to a reasonable Boxing Day service. The railway industry is there to serve the needs of the public not its employees...'

 

[II]

No, there are also those of us who don't object to others working on Boxing Day providing it is on a purely voluntary basis but are fearful that what starts off voluntary will become compulsory in years to come. This view is heightened by comments such as 'as the years go by the demand increases more and more for a return to a reasonable Boxing Day service. The railway industry is there to serve the needs of the public not its employees...'

Fair comment, Bellbell. I guess we could describe that as opinion 3b

Of course, for it to become compulsory, there would have to be complex agreements negotiated with the unions. Currently, speaking as a driver, my opinion is that it should and would remain voluntary for the time being, but long term who knows, we might need to go back to how it was a couple of generations ago? I would very much doubt that Christmas Day itself will ever be worthwhile.

Currently with the TOC I work for I am forced to take a days annual leave on Boxing Day (unless it falls on a rest day or Sunday), and without any children I would much rather choose to work if the option was there for some good money and save that day off for some other time of the year. Totally respect that that's not the case for all drivers though.

 

[Bellbell]

Fair comment, Bellbell. I guess we could describe that as opinion 3b

Of course, for it to become compulsory, there would have to be complex agreements negotiated with the unions. Currently, speaking as a driver, my opinion is that it should and would remain voluntary for the time being, but long term who knows, we might need to go back to how it was a couple of generations ago? I would very much doubt that Christmas Day itself will ever be worthwhile.

Currently with the TOC I work for I am forced to take a days annual leave on Boxing Day (unless it falls on a rest day or Sunday), and without any children I would much rather choose to work if the option was there for some good money and save that day off for some other time of the year. Totally respect that that's not the case for all drivers though.

Unfortunately, that's why I'd vote against any introduction of Boxing Day working, whether it was sold as voluntary or not.

I don't have any kids either, but as a guard it's a welcome respite from what is an increasingly manic run up to Christmas. The TOCs/DFT are partly to blame, for overcrowding and lack of capacity, but the alcohol and the vomit and the sheer volume of 'hilarious' people everywhere, coupled with people who don't understand advance tickets, routing restrictions etc mean that I am DONE with passengers by the time Christmas Day rolls round.

I can see why you might not want to be forced to use an annual leave day though.

 

[SPADTrap]

Not at all meaningless. I doubt that the same one view is shared by absolutely everyone else.

Certainly is by me!

 

[pitdiver]

Unfortunately, that's why I'd vote against any introduction of Boxing Day working, whether it was sold as voluntary or not.

I don't have any kids either, but as a guard it's a welcome respite from what is an increasingly manic run up to Christmas. The TOCs/DFT are partly to blame, for overcrowding and lack of capacity, but the alcohol and the vomit and the sheer volume of 'hilarious' people everywhere, coupled with people who don't understand advance tickets, routing restrictions etc mean that I am DONE with passengers by the time Christmas Day rolls round.

I can see why you might not want to be forced to use an annual leave day though.

Hear Bloody Hear I whole fully agree. This is one of the reason I moved from LUL

 

[miami]

No power to cook the turkey on Christmas Day because the electricity companies rely on vollenteers to run them for two days a year. Oh well, at least I can listen to Paul OGrady on the wireless on my battery operated radio. Oh no, they didn't vollenteer either.

Oh well.

 

[takno]

Oh well, at least I can listen to Paul OGrady on the wireless on my battery operated radio. Oh no, they didn't vollenteer either.

Your batteries didn't volunteer? Brutal

 

[321446]

No power to cook the turkey on Christmas Day because the electricity companies rely on vollenteers to run them for two days a year. Oh well, at least I can listen to Paul OGrady on the wireless on my battery operated radio. Oh no, they didn't vollenteer either.

Oh well.

As soon as I'm in a position to I'll love my time sitting to my self, away from everyone after weeks dealing with the Season of Goodwill. Sitting by myself. In a camper/caravan/tent/hedge. Unplugged from reality. Now care to tell me how I'm forcing someone to be at work by doing that? But I probably won't be able to, because I'll be rostered on to take people shopping exactly 36 hours after they left the last shop, but if I feel bad about it, I can just go get another job.

 

[jon0844]

Not sure we can decide the merits of a service on the basis of the type of rail user?

How many drunks are there on Boxing Day compared to, say, nurses or other key workers?

It's public transport. It attracts all sorts.

 

[Bellbell]

Not sure we can decide the merits of a service on the basis of the type of rail user?

How many drunks are there on Boxing Day compared to, say, nurses or other key workers?

It's public transport. It attracts all sorts.

Is that in response to my post? If so I never said we should decide the merits of a service on that basis. I explained that the reason I like to have two days off is that working trains is hard work in the run up to Christmas, for a variety of reasons including drunks. Two days off is a chance to recover.

If your post was in response to someone else I apologise in advance but I'm frustrated by people putting words in my mouth on this thread. I'm quite happy to discuss something from opposite sides of the fence but another poster has already attempted to belittle me and make me look foolish by attributing things to me that I didn't say and I'm a bit fed up.

 

[Bellbell]

No power to cook the turkey on Christmas Day because the electricity companies rely on vollenteers to run them for two days a year. Oh well, at least I can listen to Paul OGrady on the wireless on my battery operated radio. Oh no, they didn't vollenteer either.

Oh well.

How much extra work is generated (hah) by 'leisure use' vs hospitals, police etc? I've genuinely no idea. Not extra demand, but extra work for those working over Christmas/Boxing day.

 

[jon0844]

Is that in response to my post? If so I never said we should decide the merits of a service on that basis. I explained that the reason I like to have two days off is that working trains is hard work in the run up to Christmas, for a variety of reasons including drunks. Two days off is a chance to recover.

If your post was in response to someone else I apologise in advance but I'm frustrated by people putting words in my mouth on this thread. I'm quite happy to discuss something from opposite sides of the fence but another poster has already attempted to belittle me and make me look foolish by attributing things to me that I didn't say and I'm a bit fed up.

I wasn't replying to anyone in particular. Just noticed a few mentions of the type of user as if it mattered. If people were to assume trains on Boxing Day would only carry drunks throwing up everywhere, or nasty football fans wanting to tear trains apart (my exaggerations here) it wouldn't likely be accurate or fair - and a rather desperate way to justify not running services.

I mean, you'd surely axe late night trains during Christmas party season first wouldn't you? And taxis wouldn't let anyone in their vehicles.

It boils down to whether services can physically run (it seems they could and sometimes do) and how you make it voluntary, with some safeguards against those who say yes then change their mind on the day, which seems rather unprofessional to me. Don't volunteer if you don't actually want to work.

 

[Bellbell]

I wasn't replying to anyone in particular. Just noticed a few mentions of the type of user as if it mattered. If people were to assume trains on Boxing Day would only carry drunks throwing up everywhere, or nasty football fans wanting to tear trains apart (my exaggerations here) it wouldn't likely be accurate or fair - and a rather desperate way to justify not running services.

I mean, you'd surely axe late night trains during Christmas party season first wouldn't you? And taxis wouldn't let anyone in their vehicles.

It boils down to whether services can physically run (it seems they could and sometimes do) and how you make it voluntary, with some safeguards against those who say yes then change their mind on the day, which seems rather unprofessional to me. Don't volunteer if you don't actually want to work.

Well let's clear up any potential misunderstanding then: I never said anything about the type of people who might use the trains on Boxing Day. So you can exclude me from your list of 'a few mentions'. I mentioned the drunks and the vomit in the run up to Christmas, as well as other types of behaviour/circumstances that are frustrating. I pointed out that TOCs/DFT share the blame. I never said we shouldn't run services because of them, I accept that that's what happens over the festive period, and as I'm contractually obliged to work and knew what I was signing up for, I grin and bear it. It matters, as you put it, only in the sense that it's hard work for front line staff and contributes to my reasons for not wanting to work Boxing Day. Not because I have any knowledge of the type of Boxing Day travellers (how would I?) but because I'm tired.

I never suggested cancelling late night trains during the Christmas period, either. On what grounds would we be able to cancel services specified in the franchise? As for taxis, I've no idea on what the rules are, I'd have thought they probably can refuse to take people who are beyond wasted, but I have no way of knowing.

 

[jon0844]

Woah, I never said anyone else said cancelling late night trains - least of all you!

I just think we need to remember that it's public transport. Yes there will be idiots carried, some of them who will be paralytic and throw up or soil the train in other ways. Likewise there will be families with children, key workers, disabled, football fans, eager shoppers etc etc.

People can easily pick and choose examples of passengers to suit their argument, but the real question is - can trains run and is there demand? Once you get past that, you look at how you might actually run trains, or indeed buses/coaches in any year with engineering work taking place.

I wouldn't even have a problem if Boxing Day ran services by coach exclusively.

 

[furnessvale]

Good for you, doesn't mean that others feel the same though.

How true. When I was a single man, living in a bedsit with all the pubs shut, I was quite happy to work Christmas Day.

 

[LAX54]

There will always be a 'demand' for a train service, but if that demand is not enough for an economical service, then I would have thought doubtful to run.
You only have to look at Station Car Parks from a few days before Christmas until well into the New Year...empty, quarter full at best.

As I watched the trains pass the box window on the G.E over the past week, you can count on one hand how many passengers there are !

But on the plus side....due to the lack of people travelling, the trains are all right time !

 

[306024]

Certainly the Shenfield engineering work has frightened far more people away than anticipated. It opens up the prospect of more 9 day blockades in future.

 

[222007]

My personal view is all shops should be closed on boxing day anyway to allow people a short time to see there families and if that happened there would be no need for boxing day trains

 

[miami]

My personal view is all shops should be closed on boxing day anyway to allow people a short time to see there families and if that happened there would be no need for boxing day trains

Apart from people going to see their families, people going to work, people going for days out (Long Boxing Day walks are often traditions)

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Very surprised that an 11-car Pendolino was so crowded that they had to turf people out near the end of the journey at a fairly desolate station like Runcorn. How did they choose who had to go? Were any passengers with Advance tickets ejected? If so, what happened to them? Did any football fans miss the kick off? Was First Class declassified?

Police called to throw passengers off overcrowded Virgin train

Police were reportedly called to Runcorn station after passengers were asked to get off a packed train from Liverpool to London.

Furious train passengers complained on social media about overcrowding on trains between Liverpool and London today after two days without services.

Rail users said they had been standing and unable to get to their reserved seat – and Virgin Trains told customers on Twitter police were on their way to Runcorn station because the train was too crowded to move....

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/rail-operator-slated-after-london-12375307

Angry rail passengers slated Virgin Trains after they were stranded at Runcorn Station because of overcrowding.

Some said travellers had been allowed on an already-full London-Liverpool train then told to leave and wait for the next one.

Rail users said the same problem had occurred at Crewe on the same train, which was carrying voyagers including those on board for the Liverpool versus Stoke 5.15pm match at Anfield.

Problems ensued in Runcorn at around 12.20pm today and police were asked to attend.

Virgin Trains said the overcrowding was a result of the rush following the Christmas and Boxing Day lull in services and ‘not running for two days’.

Voyagers said blunders had occurred and criticised the situation’s safety...

 

[74A]

There will always be a 'demand' for a train service, but if that demand is not enough for an economical service, then I would have thought doubtful to run.
D

Problem is nearly all the train services in the UK require a subsidy to run. Take your point to its logical conclusion we should close down 90% of the network. Thats what the Serpell report basically said.

The railway is a subsidised public service and IMHO should provide a service on Boxing Day.

 

[74A]

I see its dated 27 Dec. Perhaps if they ran some trains on Boxing Day it would spread the load out a bit more.

The transport secretary did say it was up to the operators to provide such a service.

 

[ScouserGirl]

I see its dated 27 Dec. Perhaps if they ran some trains on Boxing Day it would spread the load out a bit more.

The transport secretary did say it was up to the operators to provide such a service.

Really...
staff should have Christmas Day and Boxing Day off and also it's the only time they can close the network down and do major works.. trains will unfortunately run on Boxing Day in the near future.