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The case for and against the effectiveness of face coverings and the mandating of their use

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Green tractor

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Any difference between being a public figure taking a virtue signalling photo to show your followers on an empty carriage versus what are effectively anonymous posts on a railway forum? Big difference.

Not really, there are 2 people loudly stating their views and intentions publicly online.
 
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farleigh

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The main effectiveness of masks is in polluting the environment.

1.6 billion to landfill each month in the UK alone according to one source.

 

Darandio

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Just imagine the worldwide figure since it all began. Yet nobody seems to care, because Covid.
 

Class320

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Can you please stop claiming people have not answered your questions, when they have? This has happened multiple times!

Meanwhile you regularly fail to answer questions; this is your right but it does undermine your argument.

I haven't claimed that anyone hasn't answered my question in this thread! I didn't even ask a question to begin with! Good grief!
 

yorkie

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I haven't claimed that anyone hasn't answered my question in this thread! I didn't even ask a question to begin with! Good grief!
I never said you did; I said:

@Class320 answered and I expanded upon it...

Not really, there are 2 people loudly stating their views and intentions publicly online.
What do you mean by this?

If this is one of your false equivalences and you are trying to equate her statement to anything I've said, a true equivalence would be for a public figure to photograph themselves on a busy tube carriage and state " Going to never wear a mask on public transport. Even when it's a crowded tube" or similar.

I wonder what false equivalence you are going to come up with next; we should do a sweepstake...


The main effectiveness of masks is in polluting the environment.

1.6 billion to landfill each month in the UK alone according to one source.

Sadly the pro-mask apologists never address this issue either.
 
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Class320

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I said:

@Class320 answered and I expanded upon it...


What do you mean by this?

You quoted me and underneath your quote of my post, you said I was claiming people weren't answering my questions when I didn't even ask one. But I've since noticed you've edited that post to change it instead of doing the right thing and admitting you got it wrong.
 
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yorkie

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No, you didn't, you said I was claiming that people weren't answering my questions! I even quoted you directly! Do you actually read what people say to you properly?
I did; you have misunderstood. I suggest you take another look; I was addressing @Green tractor and quoted your response along with mine.
 

Green tractor

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yorkie

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The social media post you referred to
https://twitter.com/Banno_Barmy/status/1419571365003268096



There is somebody publicly stating they wear a mask on public transport, meanwhile you make lots of noise publicly on the internet saying you dont wear a mask, and wont anywhere in the UK
So your argument is that I am therefore virtue signalling, as I am doing the same thing as her?

Did you actually read my post and the tweets I quoted? Here it is again:
Here is a good example of Alice Perry virtue signalling, and getting well and truly called out for it:

Going to keep wearing my mask on public transport. Even when it’s just me on the tube.
But someone pointed out that Alice Perry was happy to get close to people not wearing a mask:

Alone on a Tube - Will wear a mask. With 2 other people taking a photo - Won't wear a mask.
Thus demonstrating that it's a classic case of virtue signalling.
Or maybe you don't understand what virtue signalling means?

I've misunderstood nothing, you have made the mistake of not formatting your post properly, you are in the wrong.
The post in question is post 652:

Nonsense; I did answer your question!

It's also false to claim I have twisted what you said! On the contrary; your perception of what others say is often very different to the reality, and we have seen evidence of this on multiple occasions.

@Class320 answered and I expanded upon it:



Can you please stop claiming people have not answered your questions, when they have? This has happened multiple times!

Meanwhile you regularly fail to answer questions; this is your right but it does undermine your argument.
I was addressing @Green tractor; I stated in my reply that you answered and I expanded upon what you said.
 

Green tractor

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What do you mean by this?

If this is one of your false equivalences and you are trying to equate her statement to anything I've said, a true equivalence would be for a public figure to photograph themselves on a busy tube carriage and state " Going to never wear a mask on public transport. Even when it's a crowded tube" or similar.
Doesn't matter who is saying it, or weather it includes a picture or not, the fact is 2 people on opposite sides of the mask debate are making a noise publicly online . She made one post, you have made many.
 

yorkie

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Doesn't matter who is saying it, or weather it includes a picture or not, the fact is 2 people on opposite sides of the mask debate are making a noise publicly online . She made one post, you have made many.
Right, as I thought, you don't understand what virtue signalling means, and therefore you do not understand the point I was making.
 

Class320

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I know where the post is, I did read it and originally you quoted me and said that I was claiming people weren't answering my questions, even though I hadn't asked any!

You've since edited that post to change it and I really don't understand why you can't just have the decency to admit that you quoted the wrong person. How bloody hard is it?!
 

yorkie

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I know where the post is, I did read it and originally you quoted me and said that I was claiming people weren't answering my questions, even though I hadn't asked any!

You've since edited that post to change it and I really don't understand why you can't just have the decency to admit that you quoted the wrong person. How bloody hard is it?!
That's not the case. I edited the post at 19:03 to add the last sentence "The effectiveness of flimsy, loose fitting masks is highly questionable but one thing is certain: forcing, coercing or guilting people into wearing them is extremely divisive and not a positive thing for our society"

I was addressing @Green tractor and not yourself; as I said in my post you answered the question and I quoted your reply along with mine.

If you wish to make an allegation that someone has changed a post in order to misrepresent what was said this must not be done in any forum post but instead reported using the report button.


Going back through some of your your recent posts, it seems you dont understand anything anybody is saying.
I would agree with you that there is a contributor to this discussion who doesn't understand much of what is being said.

Now, would you like to give any reasons why you think masks should be mandated, and do you think standard masks or FFP2/3 masks should be mandated, and do you have any thoughts on the environmental impacts of mass mask wearing by healthy individuals, bearing in mind the link provided by @farleigh, and the point made by @Darandio, above?
 

Class320

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That's not the case. I edited the post at 19:03 to add the last sentence "The effectiveness of flimsy, loose fitting masks is highly questionable but one thing is certain: forcing, coercing or guilting people into wearing them is extremely divisive and not a positive thing for our society"

I was addressing @Green tractor and not yourself; as I said in my post you answered the question and I quoted your reply along with mine.

If you wish to make an allegation that someone has changed a post in order to misrepresent what was said this must not be done in any forum posting but instead reported using the report button.

I know what I saw and read which is why I replied to it. If you had directly quoted Green Tractor I would have not replied, it's as simple as that.
 

alex397

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As I said, you made some comments which were - understandably - causing alarm. There are some people who really do not want normality to return and many of us are keen to push back against that.
Not really sure how they can cause alarm really. It was mainly the misunderstanding of what I meant by ‘normal’ which seemed to get people upset.
That's exactly what those who push mask wearing are doing. Those who are behind the drive to either mandate, shame, or encourage others to wear masks and who go round taking photos of themselves wearing masks to prove a point, and going on about how they are "protecting others" are quite frankly a disgrace.
Of course those people getting aggressive are a disgrace, but they are surely in a minority. I’ve not seen any of that behaviour myself. But I agree, that extreme behaviour needs to be stamped out. You are making it sound worse than it is though.
In most settings I do not see many people wearing masks and it is clear that where there are higher numbers wearing masks, it's because many of those wearing masks have either been mislead by those who campaign for mask wearing or who do not want to stand out from others and/or be acting against instructions issued by the organisation whose premises they are visiting and/or acting against the strong messaging of the pro-mask campaigners.
The use of the word ‘mislead’ seems quite patronising to me.
Because the number of people who feel compelled to wear masks is dropping constantly, entering settings such as pubs you hardly see anyone wearing a mask, and who can forget the scenes many months ago from the Isle of Man where people went maskless while we were experiencing heavy restrictions and people were saying how great it was to get back to normal.
I’ve been to various pubs, and it depends what pub! Some pubs have been almost completely maskless, while others have been almost fully masked.
But in all the pubs I’ve been in, no one cares that much who is wearing one or not, and just want to concentrate on drinking and chatting with their friends. Well, except the pub I was in with the aggressive anti-masker who was angry we dared to wear masks to a crowded bar.
I’m sure plenty in the Isle of Man were pleased to be back to ‘normal’, but likewise I’m sure there were others who thought the opposite.
Here in this country we are infested with virtue signallers who are desperately trying to normalise masks and to try to instill a sense of shame/wrongdoing on those who don't wear them and that is holding a significant chunk of people back from discarding their masks in certain settings. As soon as you get those people into a pub type setting they are happy to discard their masks. But not everyone likes being told they are making people "unsafe" by appallingly behaved authoritarian train Guards on virtue signalling TOCs like LNER.
‘Infested with virtue signallers’ sounds hysterical, like a tabloid headline. I accept there are people like this, but just like with a tabloid, this seems like an overreaction and causing unjustified alarm.
It also seems to me you are unwilling to see other people’s point of view.
No, the difference is I can understand people’s views, but you just dismiss people who wear masks as misled virtue signallers.
Perhaps that is due to where you live or what settings you frequent. The strong views displayed by yourself and other pro-maskers are not consistent with what I'm seeing/hearing.
Maybe.

If the pro-maskers want to end this culture war (for that is what it has become) they need to accept that those who want additional protection are in the minority; those who actually want protection against viruses would need to wear FFP3 (or similar) masks to be effective and they need to accept that all organisations should either be silent on the matter of masks or, if they must put out messaging, it must be suitable to all e.g. "It is your choice to wear a mask or not; please respect each person's choice" or similar neutral wording. Until this is done, the culture war will continue.
It seems to be the anti-maskers are also part of the culture war.
Sadly those who push for mask wearing make all sorts of invalid assumptions and the remarks they make can be highly inappropriate.
That makes it ok on this forum then?
It's already happening, but certain settings such as shops and some trains are slow to adapt. Get yourself into a pub and you will see what people really think of masks.
Been to plenty of pubs. Again, depends on the pubs. There are mixed views on masks just like in many areas of our society
Maybe for oddballs and eccentrics.
Again, how does this comment add anything to a healthy debate?
 

Green tractor

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I know what I saw and read which is why I replied to it. If you had directly quoted Green Tractor I would have not replied, it's as simple as that.
I know what I said last night about social distancing at work too BEFORE my parents were vaccinated, however Yorkie seems to of read something completely different and in this instance the posts are all still there for all to see.
 

yorkie

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I know what I saw and read which is why I replied to it. If you had directly quoted Green Tractor I would have not replied, it's as simple as that.
You replied around an hour after the last edit was made; as I said above if you wish to make an allegation of this nature it must be done through the report system and not on any forum post.

I know what I said last night about social distancing at work too BEFORE my parents were vaccinated, however Yorkie seems to of read something completely different and in this instance the posts are all still there for all to see.
Indeed they are but you appear to be misremembering what I said, so here is a reminder of what I said:
To be clear: in this context we are talking about "fit, healthy and active" people, who have been vaccinated, and are deemed "vulnerable" purely due to being 84 and 91 years old.

If anyone believes that it is important that such an individual is not exposed to a virus, then the wearing of those individuals or close family members of FFP3 masks would be an effective precaution that could be taken. Whether this is proportionate, given the effectiveness of vaccines, is something each individual can decide on. But there is no doubt that anyone wearing such an effective mask, in accordance with the instructions, is given additional protection on top of the already excellent protection provided by the vaccines.

But if the 'precaution' is the wearing of a standard flimsy loose fitting mask, then this offers no measurable protection against infection, as the study linked to in this thread demonstrated.

If we are talking about other precautions then that's really a debate for a different thread.
It sounds like this particular issue involving a dispute at your workplace is mostly about measures other than mask wearing, which as I've said multiple times before, is best discussed in a separate thread. I am really puzzled why you randomly brought this up because this is a thread about mask wearing and not about historical social distancing in pre-vaccine times.
 

Green tractor

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Yorkie;

Post 653;
Most of those say masks WILL become the next culture war, not that they are currently, its just the press stirring things up again. One says they are IN DANGER of becoming a culture war.

yorkie said:


To be clear: in this context we are talking about "fit, healthy and active" people, who have been vaccinated, and are deemed "vulnerable" purely due to being 84 and 91 years old.
And here is what I actually said

Green tractor said:


Also in terms of abuse, people getting angry I've been on the receiving end of some at work for being careful. My employer did nothing, I got abuse for sitting on my own at break times rather than sit in the non socially distanced mess-room, had people make fun of me for actually stating at home during lockdown. One chap got very angry with me shouting at me asking if I was high risk (2 members of my household are) turns out his girlfriend is at high risk for some reason, but following the crowd and putting on a macho front was more important to him than reducing his (and therefore her) risk. (This was before the vaccines had been rolled out)
I will once again leave it up to others to make up their own minds

I think you need to read this VERY CAREFULLY with special reference to the bits in BOLD
 

yorkie

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Not really sure how they can cause alarm really. It was mainly the misunderstanding of what I meant by ‘normal’ which seemed to get people upset.
If you can't see how saying things won't return to normal would make people upset, then I think that's a fundamental problem. I am glad it turns out to be a misunderstanding though.

Of course those people getting aggressive are a disgrace, but they are surely in a minority. I’ve not seen any of that behaviour myself. But I agree, that extreme behaviour needs to be stamped out.
Unfortunately masks are a very divisive concept and until we reach a point where the messaging changes to roughly what I have proposed upthread, disputes will continue.


You are making it sound worse than it is though.
A lot of it is about perception and the worst incidents will be relatively isolated and not the norm.

The use of the word ‘mislead’ seems quite patronising to me.
If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to present it: that is what this thread is for.

I’ve been to various pubs, and it depends what pub! Some pubs have been almost completely maskless, while others have been almost fully masked.
Which pubs were almost fully masked? I'd like to visit and see for myself as I find this hard to believe.

But in all the pubs I’ve been in, no one cares that much who is wearing one or not, and just want to concentrate on drinking and chatting with their friends. Well, except the pub I was in with the aggressive anti-masker who was angry we dared to wear masks to a crowded bar.
Indeed aggression should not happen but it is sadly a result of the culture war that we regrettably find ourselves in and should never be in this position. Some people will take things too far on both sides, though this is absolutely not the norm of course.

I’m sure plenty in the Isle of Man were pleased to be back to ‘normal’, but likewise I’m sure there were others who thought the opposite.
I suspect those others were a tiny minority.

‘Infested with virtue signallers’ sounds hysterical, like a tabloid headline. I accept there are people like this, but just like with a tabloid, this seems like an overreaction and causing unjustified alarm.
The people who are trying to coerce others into wearing masks are the catalyst for this unjustified harm

No, the difference is I can understand people’s views, but you just dismiss people who wear masks as misled virtue signallers.
I've said time and time again that if people wear masks because they are well informed and they are immunocompromised and they are wearing an FFP3 mask I understand their reasons. In contrast people such as Alice Perry are virtue signallers. I understand it is not black and white and my argument isn't based on such a premise.

Maybe.


It seems to be the anti-maskers are also part of the culture war.
If one side wages a war it's only to be expected that a negative reaction will result. That's not to excuse aggressive behaviour, but when you wind people up, there are going to be consequences.

That makes it ok on this forum then?
Is what OK exactly?

Been to plenty of pubs. Again, depends on the pubs. There are mixed views on masks just like in many areas of our society
As mentioned above I would like to hear exactly which pubs have many mask wearers as I am struggling to believe it so would like to see for myself.

Yorkie;

Post 653;



I think you need to read this VERY CAREFULLY with special reference to the bits in BOLD
I find it really confusing that you decided to bring into the debate a reference to an incident that it sounds like happened around a year ago (but when you posted it wasn't clear you were talking in the past tense) and it turns out was nothing to do with masks. If you really wanted us to know about your workplace dispute, a new thread making it clear what exactly happened and when it was, would have been better. As I keep saying, if you wish to debate it further, feel free to create a thread as I don't understand the relevance here which is to discuss the case for and effectiveness of masks.
 

Green tractor

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You are very confused as is quite clear from some of your recent posts. What people are writing and what you are reading, seem go be 2 very different things, I did make it clear at the time it was in the past tense, here it is again
Green tractor said:


Also in terms of abuse, people getting angry I've been on the receiving end of some at work for being careful. My employer did nothing, I got abuse for sitting on my own at break times rather than sit in the non socially distanced mess-room, had people make fun of me for actually stating at home during lockdown. One chap got very angry with me shouting at me asking if I was high risk (2 members of my household are) turns out his girlfriend is at high risk for some reason, but following the crowd and putting on a macho front was more important to him than reducing his (and therefore her) risk. (This was before the vaccines had been rolled out)

It clearly states that is was before the vaccines had been rolled out, which was pre December 2020. I have also stated why I brought it up, on more than one occasion
The reason I brought it up in passing was that there are people saying on here that they get funny looks etc for not wearing masks, and I was making the point that it isn't all one way. Which was completely on topic.
 

Class320

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You are very confused as is quite clear from some of your recent posts. What people are writing and what you are reading, seem go be 2 very different things, I did make it clear at the time it was in the past tense, here it is again


It clearly states that is was before the vaccines had been rolled out, which was pre December 2020. I have also stated why I brought it up, on more than one occasion

I must be the only one who has actually read your post and understood it. You had two high-risk people in your house and decided to take precautions. I don't understand why other people on here seem to be reading that as something totally different.
 

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You are very confused as is quite clear from some of your recent posts. What people are writing and what you are reading, seem go be 2 very different things, I did make it clear at the time it was in the past tense, here it is again


It clearly states that is was before the vaccines had been rolled out, which was pre December 2020. I have also stated why I brought it up, on more than one occasion
I don't understand what that post has got to do with the subject of this thread, but the post you have just quoted (post #564) I responded to in post #566. There was no misunderstanding at that time.

Then, many posts later, in post #613 you asked:
I'm not proposing anything, I just want to know why you have a problem with OTHER people wearing face masks, I fully respect the choice of those who choose not to.



How have I been misled by believing that Covid 19 will be harmful to 2 clinically extremely vulnerable members of my household?

Are you going to suggest that they should wear FFP 3 masks in their own home?

I thought it was best to take all reasonable precautions to avoid taking it there in the first place. Are you saying I should not of taken care to protect them?
It was therefore unclear to me, reading post #613, written in the future tense, that you were in fact referring to the non-mask related historical events of last year in post #564; it sounded to me like you were talking about taking measures in terms of mask wearing going forward.

I think it's time to move on and discuss the topic in hand.
 

jumble

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. I was not telling other people what to do, I was just being as careful as I reasonably could be to protect other members of my family who were at the time not vaccinated at all.
Are you seriously telling us that despite the pontificating and arguing and accusing people of things they did not do on here you did not provoke the situation at your work
No one is getting upset about others wearing masks
I imagine they just like me do not wish to be lectured and wish others would mind their own business.


The social media post you referred to
https://twitter.com/Banno_Barmy/status/1419571365003268096



There is somebody publicly stating they wear a mask on public transport, meanwhile you make lots of noise publicly on the internet saying you dont wear a mask, and wont anywhere in the UK
The government have changed the default position about mask wearing in empty tube trains in July in case you have not noticed
 
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yorkie

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Normal means what?
Not being told what we must or can't do; not being dictated to by people who make absurd arguments.

Being able to do everything we did before the pandemic seems normal to me, if sometimes it involves wearing a mask it doesn’t change that.
That's your choice but to others masks are not normal. You cannot impose that on us as a new normal. If you want to wear masks indefinitely that is your choice. You can choose to wear an effective mask, an ineffective mask or none at all. But what I won't accept is people telling us that we must or should wear a mask to "protect" others or other such nonsense.

We may well have found the Asian visitors the UK odd when we saw them wearing masks pre-COVID, we may have thought the same of cyclists wearing masks against traffic pollution. But we accepted that these were something culturally acceptable for the Asians and pollution inhalation control to be sensible.
If they want that to be their normality that's up to them.

As for masks that filter pollution, that's an entirely separate concept, and again it's by choice. It's not like cyclists board trains, enter pubs etc while wearing them! It's another false equivalence.

Why shouldn’t we have a more cultural acceptance that mask wearing helps reduce the spread of airborne viruses within normal life?
The wearing of tight fitting FFP2/3 masks would reduce the spread of viruses, however the case for the wearing of loose fitting flimsy masks is very weak. If people don't have good immune systems they could choose to wear an effective mask for additional protection if they wish.

It is the anti-maskers who are positioning mask wearing as something against their rights, or of some sort of totalitarian regime, that are the problem.
It is the pro-maskers who are positioning mask wearing as being the norm to the extent that people who do not go along with their cult are deemed to be "inconsiderate" or "uncaring" that are the problem.

It is they who have made a simply ask to wear a mask into a divisive issue.
People should not be asked or told to wear a mask. It should be a personal choice; in settings where it is made clear it is a personal choice, the vast majority of people choose not to wear them.

The amount of aggression from some of them in situations where they are asked to wear a mask is unbelievable.
The amount of aggression from some of them in situations where they are telling people to wear a mask is unbelievable.

The people trying to coerce others into believing that wearing a mask is something terrible is the catalyst.
The people trying to coerce others into believing that wearing a mask is a paneaca and that failing to comply makes them "uncaring" or "inconsiderate" is the catalyst.

You constantly refer to flimsy cotton masks as if every mask was totally ineffective, simply to support your anti-mask views. Any mask, worn over the nose and mouth, will provide some reduction in the amount of airborne particles the wearer exhales and inhales. I think everyone will accept the FFP3 being the best, but FFP2 is highly effective too and any multilayered mask almost as effective as FFP2. We can all also agree that a single layer is less so, but any reduction is a reduction
Wearing a high grade mask known as an FFP3 can provide up to 100% protection.
By contrast, there is a far greater chance of staff wearing standard issue surgical masks catching the virus.
[standard] masks are relatively flimsy and loose-fitting and are not meant to screen out infectious aerosols - tiny virus particles that can linger in the air and are now widely accepted as a source of coronavirus infection.
FFP3 masks have a close fit and are specifically designed to filter out aerosols.
An image contained within the article states that fabric masks "do not protect you, but may protect others if you are infected" (my emphasis; the word "may" is because the evidence is very unclear on this)

The vaccines are highly effective for the vast majority of people. Only a small proportion of people are immunocompromised; the vaccines are still effective in this group, though not as highly effective as they are for other people.

If people are immunocompromised, or simply distrusting of vaccines, or want additional protection for any other reason, they could choose to wear a highly effective FFP3 mask if they wish to do so. It is their choice.

Given that such people can be well protected, there is no case for others to be told/coerced or even asked to wear any sort of mask, whether that be an effective FFP3 mask (or similar) or an ineffective fabric or surgical mask.
 

Green tractor

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Are you seriously telling us that despite the pontificating and arguing and accusing people of things they did not do on here you did not provoke the situation at your work

No one is getting upset about others wearing masks
I imagine they just like me do not wish to be lectured and wish others would mind their own business.



The government have changed the default position about mask wearing in empty tube trains in July in case you have not noticed

Please tell me where I have accused others of things they have not done on here?

I have not been telling other people what they should do either.

I did not provoke the situation at all, I just sat away from everybody else, on my own at break times at work.

Whatever the rules on wearing masks if somebody wished to wear one that is up to them, just as it is up to those who choose not to wear one.
 

jumble

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Please tell me where I have accused others of things they have not done on here?

I have not been telling other people what they should do either.

I did not provoke the situation at all, I just sat away from everybody else, on my own at break times at work.

Whatever the rules on wearing masks if somebody wished to wear one that is up to them, just as it is up to those who choose not to wear one.
Has @yorkie ever maintained that he has any problem with seeing other people wearing masks who are quietly minding their own business as you claim below?


"The real question here is why you have such a problem seeing other people wearing face masks, its up to them, and doesn't affect you in the slightest."
 

yorkie

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Please tell me where I have accused others of things they have not done on here?

I have not been telling other people what they should do either.

I did not provoke the situation at all, I just sat away from everybody else, on my own at break times at work.

Whatever the rules on wearing masks if somebody wished to wear one that is up to them, just as it is up to those who choose not to wear one.
You previously indicated you were in favour of mandatory masks; if you have changed your mind based on the information provided here then I see that as a good result :)

People like to call me "anti mask" but I have looked at the available evidence, regarding mask effectiveness, vaccine effectiveness, and to me it's a really simple conclusion: messaging should make it clear it's personal choice.

People who are immunocompromised should be given the truth, both regarding how effective the vaccines are in that group, and the effectiveness of different types of mask.

We need to move to people taking personal responsibility and informed choices, not coerced and guilted like the awful, misleading authoritarian LNER Guard on a recent trip I made.
 
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