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The case for and against the effectiveness of face coverings and the mandating of their use

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VauxhallandI

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I completely agree!

Thank you for clarifying.

The glaring, or worse, does go both ways. I was on a train out of Leeds a few weeks back and was peering out of the window to see the 91s on Neville Hill. I had the feeling someone was staring and so glanced back, only to be asked very rudely and aggressively ‘what are you looking at?’ I hadn’t previously noticed, but there was an anti-masker across the aisle. I’m not one for conflict (other than on forums:D) so I shrugged and went back to looking out of the window. More grumbling followed, so I got up and went to another coach.

I agree with you completely though that the government messaging needs to change. The current railway message about showing respect to others by wearing a mask is ridiculous.
Exactly one of the issues with a mask is that people cannot tell what you are doing. It’s far easier to interpret your perceived thoughts without a mask on.
 
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sjpowermac

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Exactly one of the issues with a mask is that people cannot tell what you are doing. It’s far easier to interpret your perceived thoughts without a mask on.
What a ridiculous statement in relation to the situation I quoted.

I was sat completely minding my own business looking out of the window. The anti-masker seemed to be mumbling something about how I didn’t want to face them, when in reality I was simply (trying to) enjoy my hobby. I don’t think I should have to explain that to anyone.

Just out of interest, what’s your stance on the Niqab in relation to ease of assessing ‘perceived thoughts’? Do you want to stop people from wearing that too?
 

Bantamzen

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I completely agree!

Thank you for clarifying.

The glaring, or worse, does go both ways. I was on a train out of Leeds a few weeks back and was peering out of the window to see the 91s on Neville Hill. I had the feeling someone was staring and so glanced back, only to be asked very rudely and aggressively ‘what are you looking at?’ I hadn’t previously noticed, but there was an anti-masker across the aisle. I’m not one for conflict (other than on forums:D) so I shrugged and went back to looking out of the window. More grumbling followed, so I got up and went to another coach.

I agree with you completely though that the government messaging needs to change. The current railway message about showing respect to others by wearing a mask is ridiculous.
I probably owe you an apology, reading my comment back it came over a bit too angry. That's a combination of too little sleep and a bit too much strong coffee! ;)

I have to say though I would never condone angry exchanges between people about wearing or not wearing masks. I really do want to see the back of the bloody things because I honestly believe they cause more psychological harm than they do physical good. And I don't want people who have a hard time dealing with a masked society pushed into a corner and labelled as having a problem.

But I do understand that months on months of gaslighting by the government making people feel guilty for something that is not their fault has taken its toll on people. The good news is that as I type from a well known chain of drinking establishment, normality is in full swing.
 

Green tractor

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No-one, I'm still waiting for those who are saying masks make a difference to post a link to a peer reviewed scientific paper giving evidence for effectiveness of masks.


This article provides links....

 

sjpowermac

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I probably owe you an apology, reading my comment back it came over a bit too angry. That's a combination of too little sleep and a bit too much strong coffee! ;)

I have to say though I would never condone angry exchanges between people about wearing or not wearing masks. I really do want to see the back of the bloody things because I honestly believe they cause more psychological harm than they do physical good. And I don't want people who have a hard time dealing with a masked society pushed into a corner and labelled as having a problem.

But I do understand that months on months of gaslighting by the government making people feel guilty for something that is not their fault has taken its toll on people. The good news is that as I type from a well known chain of drinking establishment, normality is in full swing.
Oh there’s no need to apologise, I do agree with pretty much everything you’ve put there.

I’m typing from an absolutely wedged TPE train; all seats filled and the aisles full, several people are drunk already, (on their way to the races). So yes, normality is starting to return!

Before you ask, I am wearing a face nappy, but haven’t glared at anyone not doing so, all very harmonious ;)
 

VauxhallandI

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What a ridiculous statement in relation to the situation I quoted.

I was sat completely minding my own business looking out of the window. The anti-masker seemed to be mumbling something about how I didn’t want to face them, when in reality I was simply (trying to) enjoy my hobby. I don’t think I should have to explain that to anyone.

Just out of interest, what’s your stance on the Niqab in relation to ease of assessing ‘perceived thoughts’? Do you want to stop people from wearing that too?
I had read it as that you had stared at them so apologies

However it’s still an example of the divide they have produced for no benefit.

I doubt the person would have been upset with a Niqab as they would know it was a religious matter and that the wearer would be judging them for not wearing a Niqab.

I can assure you that in the school yard who started it first it was defiantly the mask wearers.

Maybe we should announce that mask wearing was a religious thing, it would make more sense.
 

Bikeman78

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On a serious note, I always felt that masks in classrooms were a complete waste of time and quite definitely a case of being seen to do ‘something’.
Considering how little the kids care on trains, e.g. around Hertford, Stansted, Bishop's Stortford and Harlow, I think all the fuss around bubbles and masks in school is a complete waste of time. They mix on the train to/from school and mask wearing was variable to say the least.
 

sjpowermac

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Considering how little the kids care on trains, e.g. around Hertford, Stansted, Bishop's Stortford and Harlow, I think all the fuss around bubbles and masks in school is a complete waste of time. They mix on the train to/from school and mask wearing was variable to say the least.
Bubbles in (some) secondary schools have been hugely detrimental to the education of children, resulting in them being taught subjects such as science in non-specialist rooms.

I had read it as that you had stared at them so apologies
No problem, having re-read my original post I can see why you might have thought that.
 

WelshBluebird

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Why should they have to seek help? Seriously, these are measures imposed on us by politicians in a vain attempt to "defeat the virus". So why the hell are we suggesting that people who find the use of masks difficult have a problem? Surely the problem is the masks, so why not deal with that? Its absolute insanity to tell people suffering as a result of government mandated measures that they have the problem.
We aren't talking about people who just find masks a problem though. We are talking about people who claim they are literally being kept up at night by the very idea that someone may, shock horror, choose to wear a mask at the moment even though its not mandated anymore. If you are affected by anything so much that you can't sleep at night then getting some kind of help isn't a bad idea. This is not me having a go at anyone or telling someone that they have a problem. This is me, as someone who has suffered mental health issues personally and having had close friends have issues too, saying that if something affects you that much, then maybe talking about it with a professional would help. There's a bit of a difference between simply not liking masks and literally being so terrified by them that you can't sleep. Note what I say above also applies to people who are feeling the same extremes on "the other side too" - if someone who is not elderly and doesn't have underlying conditions then if they are equally affected (so terrified of covid they can't sleep at night) then I'd recommend the same!
 
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Bantamzen

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We aren't talking about people who just find masks a problem though. We are talking about people who claim they are literally being kept up at night by the very idea that someone may, shock horror, choose to wear a mask at the moment even though its not mandated anymore. If you are affected by anything so much that you can't sleep at night then getting some kind of help isn't a bad idea. This is not me having a go at anyone or telling someone that they have a problem. This is me, as someone who has suffered mental health issues personally and having had close friends have issues too, saying that if something affects you that much, then maybe talking about it with a professional would help. There's a bit of a difference between simply not liking masks and literally being so terrified by them that you can't sleep. Note what I say above also applies to people who are feeling the same extremes on "the other side too" - if someone who is not elderly and doesn't have underlying conditions then if they are equally affected (so terrified of covid they can't sleep at night) then I'd recommend the same!
But we really are talking about people that find masks a problem. And furthermore we are also talking about people who will wear them on command, but whose mental health is undermined because for them masks equal danger. People who have become conditioned to believe that masks somehow keep them safe, but also see other people as a threat. That isn't right, and it sure isn't healthy.
 

Green tractor

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But we really are talking about people that find masks a problem. And furthermore we are also talking about people who will wear them on command, but whose mental health is undermined because for them masks equal danger. People who have become conditioned to believe that masks somehow keep them safe, but also see other people as a threat. That isn't right, and it sure isn't healthy.

I wear a mask to protect other people, it stops me spitting on things as I exhale, it is not about protecting the wearer
 

MikeWM

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But we really are talking about people that find masks a problem. And furthermore we are also talking about people who will wear them on command, but whose mental health is undermined because for them masks equal danger. People who have become conditioned to believe that masks somehow keep them safe, but also see other people as a threat. That isn't right, and it sure isn't healthy.

We now have a society where it appears the majority of people think it is reasonable for *healthy* people to act as if they are ill and a direct threat to others, and need to take mitigations against that. And even though it is no longer law, we’re being told we have to ‘respect’ others by still acting that way. And the majority still seem happy to go along with that.

Whatever you think about masks themselves, that is a deeply unpleasant and problematic change that society has undergone in a very short time. As such, it would have been most welcome if the most obvious symbol of that attitude had been jettisoned once people were free to do so. That most have not done so points to a potentially permanent, very negative, change in our society. Seems reasonable to me if that worries people, it certainly scares me.
 

Green tractor

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We now have a society where it appears the majority of people think it is reasonable for *healthy* people to act as if they are ill and a direct threat to others, and need to take mitigations against that. And even though it is no longer law, we’re being told we have to ‘respect’ others by still acting that way. And the majority still seem happy to go along with that.

Whatever you think about masks themselves, that is a deeply unpleasant and problematic change that society has undergone in a very short time. As such, it would have been most welcome if the most obvious symbol of that attitude had been jettisoned once people were free to do so. That most have not done so points to a potentially permanent, very negative, change in our society. Seems reasonable to me if that worries people, it certainly scares me.

Do you find the 30 and 20 mph speed limits disturbing? Just like face masks they are there to protect other people, not those driving.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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We now have a society where it appears the majority of people think it is reasonable for *healthy* people to act as if they are ill and a direct threat to others, and need to take mitigations against that. And even though it is no longer law, we’re being told we have to ‘respect’ others by still acting that way. And the majority still seem happy to go along with that.

Whatever you think about masks themselves, that is a deeply unpleasant and problematic change that society has undergone in a very short time. As such, it would have been most welcome if the most obvious symbol of that attitude had been jettisoned once people were free to do so. That most have not done so points to a potentially permanent, very negative, change in our society. Seems reasonable to me if that worries people, it certainly scares me.
Its only natural for people who have never found themselves in a situation like this to do all they can to protect themselves and others. There not naturally acting this way they have been conditioned by govt and media to do wear the masks as one of the measures they can take that allows some semblance of normality to carry on. So to get some balance balance back in our lives we've gone along with it. This is not the way of the West and it won't become ingrained and im confident as people see others without masks there will be a gradual, at first, change in the balance till unmasked become the majority. Its not going to happen overnight especially with cases high and the media sticking Covid doom and gloom on the headlines everyday but it will change. Just got to be patient and accept that we are all different how we approach our lives but majority of people are followers so they will discard their masks.
 

Darandio

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I wear a mask to protect other people, it stops me spitting on things as I exhale, it is not about protecting the wearer

Which is a great thought until you realise that it probably still doesn't work in a real world setting, it's 12 months since they were mandated and nothing in any set of figures suggests they made a blind bit of difference. Most people don't wear them properly so that doesn't work. Many people are constantly re-using disposable masks for weeks on end, that doesn't work. Many people re-use a damp piece of dirty cloth for weeks on end, that doesn't work either.

What it does do is make certain people feel all warm and gooey when they tell people they are wearing it to protect others. It's also made those mandating them look like they were doing something regardless of how useful it was. Looking to be doing something is all that seems to matter these days.
 

Green tractor

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Which is a great thought until you realise that it probably still doesn't work in a real world setting, it's 12 months since they were mandated and nothing in any set of figures suggests they made a blind bit of difference. Most people don't wear them properly so that doesn't work. Many people are constantly re-using disposable masks for weeks on end, that doesn't work. Many people re-use a damp piece of dirty cloth for weeks on end, that doesn't work either.

What it does do is make certain people feel all warm and gooey when they tell people they are wearing it to protect others. It's also made those mandating them look like they were doing something regardless of how useful it was. Looking to be doing something is all that seems to matter these days.


Try spitting with one on, which is what they prevent, further up thread I posted a link to some peer reviewed study.

Ask yourself why surgeons wear them?
 

bengley

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Why? It's just like masks, not there for the benefit of the driver, but those around them, apart from the speed limits are permanently there.
Of course it's there for the benefit of the driver. The driver might not know it, of course.
 

Domh245

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Try spitting with one on, which is what they prevent, further up thread I posted a link to some peer reviewed study.

Ask yourself why surgeons wear them?

I can't say I've ever spat whilst simply breathing, and haven't seen many others do so either

It's rather obvious that putting a physical barrier in front of the mouth stops spitting, but it's the much finer aerosols and droplets that are the concern when it comes to covid transmission, not spitballs...
 

Green tractor

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I can't say I've ever spat whilst simply breathing, and haven't seen many others do so either

It's rather obvious that putting a physical barrier in front of the mouth stops spitting, but it's the much finer aerosols and droplets that are the concern when it comes to covid transmission, not spitballs...

The virus particles are carried on the drops of spit that you eject as you exhale. Exhale onto a piece of glass...



Of course it's there for the benefit of the driver. The driver might not know it, of course.

Its largely there for the benefit of the pedestrians they might hit
 
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VauxhallandI

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Do you find the 30 and 20 mph speed limits disturbing? Just like face masks they are there to protect other people, not those driving.
What if they now said it was 2mph?

Try spitting with one on, which is what they prevent, further up thread I posted a link to some peer reviewed study.

Ask yourself why surgeons wear them?
We’ve been through this surgeon claptrap a hundred times
 

Green tractor

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So virus particles are not airborne.

every day is a school day for me.

They are airborne, but they are largely carried on the drops of moisture in your breath. That is what a mask stops.

What if they now said it was 2mph?


We’ve been through this surgeon claptrap a hundred times

The 20mph limit was a new one a few years ago, down from the previous 30.


And why do surgeons wear them?
 

VauxhallandI

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They are airborne, but they are largely carried on the drops of moisture in your breath. That is what a mask stops.



The 20mph limit was a new one a few years ago, down from the previous 30.


And why do surgeons wear them?
Why wasn’t it visors that were mandated then?
 

bramling

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We now have a society where it appears the majority of people think it is reasonable for *healthy* people to act as if they are ill and a direct threat to others, and need to take mitigations against that. And even though it is no longer law, we’re being told we have to ‘respect’ others by still acting that way. And the majority still seem happy to go along with that.

Whatever you think about masks themselves, that is a deeply unpleasant and problematic change that society has undergone in a very short time. As such, it would have been most welcome if the most obvious symbol of that attitude had been jettisoned once people were free to do so. That most have not done so points to a potentially permanent, very negative, change in our society. Seems reasonable to me if that worries people, it certainly scares me.

The above point is very well made. It’s a rather creepy change. I think it will wither away as time goes on, but not without some teeth gnashing from the virtue-signalling contingent.
 

Green tractor

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Visors are more expensive and not as portable (cant put them in your pocket, also the drops of moisture arent caught as effectively by them.

Well that's what you are told. But maybe try looking outside the box, because there is pretty much no evidence that the masks you wear prevent any kind of viral spread.
 
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