• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

The Dangers arising from Old Laws in Changed Conditions

Status
Not open for further replies.

NARobertson

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2016
Messages
57
Location
Westo-Super-Mare
That passengers can on Britain's railways, as seen on this forum, sometimes find themselves in considerable difficulties arises I think in part from the operation of old laws that were intended to operate in a markedly different environment from that today. Normally, in most countries, it is very unlikely that one can commit a criminal act through nothing else but having made a mistake. I do not dispute that fraud of one type or another, where there is no doubt that an action was deliberate, is not uncommon on the railways nowadays. Such unambiguous cases of fraud include:

1. Travelling on someone else's Rail Card;
2. An adult using a child ticket;
3. Someone apparently scanning out at a barrier but really following very closely the person in front of them;
4. Using manipulated tickets.

The 1889 Railways Act was primarily intended to improve railway safety after a particularly bad accident in Ireland. An overloaded train had stalled on a bank. The driver divided the train, parking the rear half and taking the front half up before leaving this in a loop. Unfortunately, the brakes on the rear half failed and it rolled down the bank, gaining speed and finally colliding with a following train. As a result railways had to spend large sums of money on safety improvements, particularly on braking systems. Perhaps as a consolation the railways were at the same time given additional powers for recovery of unpaid fares.

What was a valid ticket in 1890 was probably simple and straightforward. But now there are many different types of ticket, some of very limited validity. Therefore, the chances of a ticket not being valid are much higher today than in 1890. Back then most stations had ticket offices where even the illiterate could purchase a ticket without difficulties. Today many stations have only ticket machines. Sometimes these are situated outdoors where rain or particular lighting conditions can result in reflections on their screens that make them awkward to use. Warning signs that a station is in a penalty fares zone can be placed where some passengers will not see them. At my local station the sign on one side is much more likely to be seen on alighting from a train and leaving the station than on entering the station. Tickets are often sold freely on trains in such zones, suggesting perhaps that this is perfectly legitimate. Add to these circumstances a magistracy with fairly minimal legal qualifications and the result is a system that is very much loaded against railway passengers.

Another question is that of private prosecutions in this country. Currently, some organizations such as the Post Office and the railways can start criminal, as opposed to civil, proceedings. One result of this system has been the great injustice of many postmasters who were wrongly jailed for embezzlement. But, in general, it seems fundamentally unjust that one party can be all of the plaintiff, the police and the prosecutor. The Times on 25 November reported on p. 64 on efforts to make changes to this system. The Parliamentary Committee on Justice recommended last year that all defendants against whom private prosecutions are brought should be notified by the court of their right to have the case reviewed by the Crown Prosecution Service. The report of that committee also recommended that organizations that conduct frequent prosecutions should be subject to inspections. Where one is found to be misusing the power the right ought to be removed, or consent from the Attorney General or Director of Public Prosecutions must be granted before initiating cases. One solicitor blamed magistrates for not sufficiently scrutinizing such cases. Another said that one problem with private prosecutions is that judicial scrutiny does not start until the crown court, with cases sometimes being dropped if they go to a crown court.

There is also the question of what incentives and pressures RPIs work under. That does not need to be bonuses that encourage the issuing of penalty fares and reports for prosecution. It could include the performance appraisal systems that are a feature of many, if not most, jobs. What indices would an RPI be assessed on? Penalties issued and cases resulting in prosecutions would seem to be obvious criteria. On the other hand, an RPI that is seen as being unsatisfactory could perhaps be pressurized to improve their 'productivity'.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
2,767
That passengers can on Britain's railways, as seen on this forum, sometimes find themselves in considerable difficulties arises I think in part from the operation of old laws that were intended to operate in a markedly different environment from that today. Normally, in most countries, it is very unlikely that one can commit a criminal act through nothing else but having made a mistake. I do not dispute that fraud of one type or another, where there is no doubt that an action was deliberate, is not uncommon on the railways nowadays. Such unambiguous cases of fraud include:

1. Travelling on someone else's Rail Card;
2. An adult using a child ticket;
3. Someone apparently scanning out at a barrier but really following very closely the person in front of them;
4. Using manipulated tickets.

The 1889 Railways Act was primarily intended to improve railway safety after a particularly bad accident in Ireland. An overloaded train had stalled on a bank. The driver divided the train, parking the rear half and taking the front half up before leaving this in a loop. Unfortunately, the brakes on the rear half failed and it rolled down the bank, gaining speed and finally colliding with a following train. As a result railways had to spend large sums of money on safety improvements, particularly on braking systems. Perhaps as a consolation the railways were at the same time given additional powers for recovery of unpaid fares.

What was a valid ticket in 1890 was probably simple and straightforward. But now there are many different types of ticket, some of very limited validity. Therefore, the chances of a ticket not being valid are much higher today than in 1890. Back then most stations had ticket offices where even the illiterate could purchase a ticket without difficulties. Today many stations have only ticket machines. Sometimes these are situated outdoors where rain or particular lighting conditions can result in reflections on their screens that make them awkward to use. Warning signs that a station is in a penalty fares zone can be placed where some passengers will not see them. At my local station the sign on one side is much more likely to be seen on alighting from a train and leaving the station than on entering the station. Tickets are often sold freely on trains in such zones, suggesting perhaps that this is perfectly legitimate. Add to these circumstances a magistracy with fairly minimal legal qualifications and the result is a system that is very much loaded against railway passengers.

Another question is that of private prosecutions in this country. Currently, some organizations such as the Post Office and the railways can start criminal, as opposed to civil, proceedings. One result of this system has been the great injustice of many postmasters who were wrongly jailed for embezzlement. But, in general, it seems fundamentally unjust that one party can be all of the plaintiff, the police and the prosecutor. The Times on 25 November reported on p. 64 on efforts to make changes to this system. The Parliamentary Committee on Justice recommended last year that all defendants against whom private prosecutions are brought should be notified by the court of their right to have the case reviewed by the Crown Prosecution Service. The report of that committee also recommended that organizations that conduct frequent prosecutions should be subject to inspections. Where one is found to be misusing the power the right ought to be removed, or consent from the Attorney General or Director of Public Prosecutions must be granted before initiating cases. One solicitor blamed magistrates for not sufficiently scrutinizing such cases. Another said that one problem with private prosecutions is that judicial scrutiny does not start until the crown court, with cases sometimes being dropped if they go to a crown court.

There is also the question of what incentives and pressures RPIs work under. That does not need to be bonuses that encourage the issuing of penalty fares and reports for prosecution. It could include the performance appraisal systems that are a feature of many, if not most, jobs. What indices would an RPI be assessed on? Penalties issued and cases resulting in prosecutions would seem to be obvious criteria. On the other hand, an RPI that is seen as being unsatisfactory could perhaps be pressurized to improve their 'productivity'.
I have to be very careful what I say, but I'll come to your point around incentives/bonus etc, certainly at my TOC there is no "pressure"... not sure if that's the right word, to issue PF's/MG11 etc, the main focus is on having us visible, out and about, a big focus is on scanning electronic tickets, that way it can be seen that we are in fact out working and not sat in Costa for half the shift, generally we are left to our own devices as we know where the focus areas for ticketless travel etc are.
I can honestly say that in just shy of twenty years within Revenue Protection I have never been questioned by management on why I have or haven't issued a PF instead of a ticket, an MG11 instead of a PF etc.
Have I got every single decision right in that time? Of course I haven't, I'd be lying if I said I'd never cocked up too!
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,474
There’s absolutely nothing new in the OP’s opening statement. There’s still no explanation for how you distinguish accidental mistakes from intentional attempts to evade the correct fare.
 

Turtle

Member
Joined
18 Mar 2013
Messages
298
That passengers can on Britain's railways, as seen on this forum, sometimes find themselves in considerable difficulties arises I think in part from the operation of old laws that were intended to operate in a markedly different environment from that today. Normally, in most countries, it is very unlikely that one can commit a criminal act through nothing else but having made a mistake. I do not dispute that fraud of one type or another, where there is no doubt that an action was deliberate, is not uncommon on the railways nowadays. Such unambiguous cases of fraud include:

1. Travelling on someone else's Rail Card;
2. An adult using a child ticket;
3. Someone apparently scanning out at a barrier but really following very closely the person in front of them;
4. Using manipulated tickets.

The 1889 Railways Act was primarily intended to improve railway safety after a particularly bad accident in Ireland. An overloaded train had stalled on a bank. The driver divided the train, parking the rear half and taking the front half up before leaving this in a loop. Unfortunately, the brakes on the rear half failed and it rolled down the bank, gaining speed and finally colliding with a following train. As a result railways had to spend large sums of money on safety improvements, particularly on braking systems. Perhaps as a consolation the railways were at the same time given additional powers for recovery of unpaid fares.

What was a valid ticket in 1890 was probably simple and straightforward. But now there are many different types of ticket, some of very limited validity. Therefore, the chances of a ticket not being valid are much higher today than in 1890. Back then most stations had ticket offices where even the illiterate could purchase a ticket without difficulties. Today many stations have only ticket machines. Sometimes these are situated outdoors where rain or particular lighting conditions can result in reflections on their screens that make them awkward to use. Warning signs that a station is in a penalty fares zone can be placed where some passengers will not see them. At my local station the sign on one side is much more likely to be seen on alighting from a train and leaving the station than on entering the station. Tickets are often sold freely on trains in such zones, suggesting perhaps that this is perfectly legitimate. Add to these circumstances a magistracy with fairly minimal legal qualifications and the result is a system that is very much loaded against railway passengers.

Another question is that of private prosecutions in this country. Currently, some organizations such as the Post Office and the railways can start criminal, as opposed to civil, proceedings. One result of this system has been the great injustice of many postmasters who were wrongly jailed for embezzlement. But, in general, it seems fundamentally unjust that one party can be all of the plaintiff, the police and the prosecutor. The Times on 25 November reported on p. 64 on efforts to make changes to this system. The Parliamentary Committee on Justice recommended last year that all defendants against whom private prosecutions are brought should be notified by the court of their right to have the case reviewed by the Crown Prosecution Service. The report of that committee also recommended that organizations that conduct frequent prosecutions should be subject to inspections. Where one is found to be misusing the power the right ought to be removed, or consent from the Attorney General or Director of Public Prosecutions must be granted before initiating cases. One solicitor blamed magistrates for not sufficiently scrutinizing such cases. Another said that one problem with private prosecutions is that judicial scrutiny does not start until the crown court, with cases sometimes being dropped if they go to a crown court.

There is also the question of what incentives and pressures RPIs work under. That does not need to be bonuses that encourage the issuing of penalty fares and reports for prosecution. It could include the performance appraisal systems that are a feature of many, if not most, jobs. What indices would an RPI be assessed on? Penalties issued and cases resulting in prosecutions would seem to be obvious criteria. On the other hand, an RPI that is seen as being unsatisfactory could perhaps be pressurized to improve their 'productivity'.
I think you have summarised what many of us feel are the defects of the current system.
 

jumble

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2011
Messages
1,114
I have to be very careful what I say, but I'll come to your point around incentives/bonus etc, certainly at my TOC there is no "pressure"... not sure if that's the right word, to issue PF's/MG11 etc, the main focus is on having us visible, out and about, a big focus is on scanning electronic tickets, that way it can be seen that we are in fact out working and not sat in Costa for half the shift, generally we are left to our own devices as we know where the focus areas for ticketless travel etc are.
I can honestly say that in just shy of twenty years within Revenue Protection I have never been questioned by management on why I have or haven't issued a PF instead of a ticket, an MG11 instead of a PF etc.
Have I got every single decision right in that time? Of course I haven't, I'd be lying if I said I'd never cocked up too!
But you cannot say the same about TIL and how they behave can you.
If anyone needs to be bought to book it is them.
 

Randomer

Member
Joined
31 Jul 2017
Messages
317
Generally I agree with what most of the OP has stated. Personally I'd be content with making most ticketing offences* a civil matter in a way similar to how parking has been decriminalised, although I will admit that the current parking system could do with work. I think the current penalty fare reform proposals would be a good time to do this but I can't see the will being there by either the government or the railway industry at large.

To me at least the major problem isn't the 1889 act but more Bylaw 18. The RORA 1889 requires intent which is a much greater burden to prove than the bylaw which personally feels like an attempt to bypass the statutory act with one requiring a lower burden of proof for the prosecution.

* The obvious exclusions being cases of active fraud, e.g. fake tickets or deliberate repeated actions like donuting on a season ticket and oyster combination.

Another question is that of private prosecutions in this country. Currently, some organizations such as the Post Office and the railways can start criminal, as opposed to civil, proceedings. One result of this system has been the great injustice of many postmasters who were wrongly jailed for embezzlement. But, in general, it seems fundamentally unjust that one party can be all of the plaintiff, the police and the prosecutor. The Times on 25 November reported on p. 64 on efforts to make changes to this system. The Parliamentary Committee on Justice recommended last year that all defendants against whom private prosecutions are brought should be notified by the court of their right to have the case reviewed by the Crown Prosecution Service. The report of that committee also recommended that organizations that conduct frequent prosecutions should be subject to inspections. Where one is found to be misusing the power the right ought to be removed, or consent from the Attorney General or Director of Public Prosecutions must be granted before initiating cases. One solicitor blamed magistrates for not sufficiently scrutinizing such cases. Another said that one problem with private prosecutions is that judicial scrutiny does not start until the crown court, with cases sometimes being dropped if they go to a crown court.

One point I would make that any person can bring a private prosecution not just a limited number of organizations. There have been some notable cases where they have clearly been in the interests of justice for example the case of PC Mark Knight only ended up in court after a third party (who admittedly had other issues with Derbyshire police) started a private prosecution against him. I would be very hesitant to advocate removal of the idea of private prosecutions entirely but would be content limiting to them to individuals rather than corporate bodies.

But you cannot say the same about TIL and how they behave can you.
If anyone needs to be bought to book it is them.

Couldn't agree more. There behaviour of offering at times outrageously calculated settlements whilst using a threat of prosecution could be viewed by many people as extortion if it was more widely known about. Likewise the lack of penalty for the company when they have been caught repeatedly threatening prosecution on valid tickets or with valid reasons for not having purchased one when stopped as reported on this forum. It is hard to know how many people have paid up a "settlement" when they had no legal reason to do so.
 

nanstallon

Member
Joined
18 Dec 2015
Messages
752
I agree with the OP, and would go further. I really don't see why the TOCs are given so much power over their customers. There seems a certain zealousness about they way they pursue people who at least seem to have made a genuine mistake, perhaps from being in a hurry or not being regular rail users. It can be even worse when revenue protection is outsourced to outfits like TiL

It reminds me of when as a trainee solicitor in the Seventies, I went to the Magistrates Court, and would see on the list of cases for hearing such matters as somebody being prosecuted for parking too long outside a railway station on British Rail land. How ridiculous.

While TOCs should not be deprived of revenue that they are owed, this is more a contractual issue and they should be left to recover this by means of civil process. Criminal courts should be reserved for more serious cases of anti-social behaviour, rather than being used by commercial organisations such as TOCs.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
551
I do wonder if the settlement system hides a lot of this from relevant parties, like magistrates and the public in general.

If every case had to go in front of some type of court, do you think other methods might be used instead, or would the operators just continue as usual?
 

RPI

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2010
Messages
2,767
I do wonder if the settlement system hides a lot of this from relevant parties, like magistrates and the public in general.

If every case had to go in front of some type of court, do you think other methods might be used instead, or would the operators just continue as usual?
A lot does go in front of the court though, and more often than not the defendant doesn't turn up, quite often an afternoon court session can see the number of cases in double figures.
 

AngusH

Member
Joined
27 Oct 2012
Messages
551
Is there a public figure for the settled/abandoned/"gone to court" ratios at all?

edit: the thought I'm working towards is:
what figures are those defining the current laws working on and is their view of the situation accurate?
Also, a system with a vast number of minor prosecutions would be obviously open to public questioning. (if that actually was happening of course)
 

Gloster

Established Member
Joined
4 Sep 2020
Messages
8,473
Location
Up the creek
One thing that I have wondered about when reading threads in this section is whether the ‘prosecuting’ organisation (TIL, etc.) adjusts its actions according to the style of any response they receive? If they get a polite, well laid-out letter which clearly expresses the arguments or explanations of the person they are pursuing, are they more likely to go for a quick settlement (or even drop the case) than if they receive a badly composed and rambling reply from someone who obviously has difficulty arguing coherently? I am talking about cases where all other factors are equal.
 

Glenmoor

Member
Joined
2 Nov 2021
Messages
9
Location
Minehead
Well I sought help on this forum on behalf of family visiting from abroad simply because the complexity of train ticketing is linked with what can be draconian results if one gets it wrong. I fully agree with the OP that the power given to the TOC's (see I'm even learning the lingo) seems excessive in a modern commercial marketplace. These are all contractural matters and ought to be dealt with by civil action unless there's a deliberate intention to defraud and then ... it's fraud!
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,119
Location
Airedale
What was a valid ticket in 1890 was probably simple and straightforward. But now there are many different types of ticket, some of very limited validity. Therefore, the chances of a ticket not being valid are much higher today than in 1890.
Yes, but the vast majority of those are Advance or Offpeak fares which should be dealt with by Excess fares. The ones we hear about are typically misused tickets (expired Railcards being flavour of the month).
Warning signs that a station is in a penalty fares zone can be placed where some passengers will not see them. At my local station the sign on one side is much more likely to be seen on alighting from a train and leaving the station than on entering the station. Tickets are often sold freely on trains in such zones, suggesting perhaps that this is perfectly legitimate. Add to these circumstances a magistracy with fairly minimal legal qualifications and the result is a system that is very much loaded against railway passengers.
Fair points about the PF system, but how many of these end up in court?
 

NARobertson

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2016
Messages
57
Location
Westo-Super-Mare
Well I sought help on this forum on behalf of family visiting from abroad simply because the complexity of train ticketing is linked with what can be draconian results if one gets it wrong. I fully agree with the OP that the power given to the TOC's (see I'm even learning the lingo) seems excessive in a modern commercial marketplace. These are all contractural matters and ought to be dealt with by civil action unless there's a deliberate intention to defraud and then ... it's fraud!
I agree. It needs to be remembered that in the 19th century the railways, offering the only means of long distance transport, were much more important than they are today. This may be why they were given legal privileges that most organizations never acquire. These privileges were, to some extent, at one time balanced by obligations. For example, up to at least the 1960s the railways were the so called 'Common Carrier'. This meant they had to transport whatever goods or livestock that were presented to them, irrespective of whether they made any profit on this business. But, today, when the railways have been supported by public subsidies for decades, these privileges have become anachronisms.
 

LouRf

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2021
Messages
25
Location
UK
Interesting thread . i believe therd should be more transparency where there is a middle man like TIL which is a profit-making private company taking actipn on behalf of TOCs. What % if the 'fine' goes to the rail company, for example and how much to them?
Regarding letters written , eloquent or not, our exp was the sent ones were not read or addressed, only email.
In addition regarding taking a case to a magistrate there is more in the way of threats, which is backed up by a poorly organised or erratic case which is nowhere near ready for court.
Impression is TIL do business by rather random unprofessional practice not really checked by anyone.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top