kylemore
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I always thought it was a shame they didn't develop the Troon route more. A stone's throw from the A77/M77 within 45 mins from Glasgow as opposed to the slow and tortuous trek to Cairnryan.
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The decline of P&O Ferries
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Islineclear3_1
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Glad the "Prides" have lasted so long. Takes me back to 1987 when my colleagues and I were invited to take a tour of the (then) new Pride of Dover in 1987
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's long been a naming scheme, largely because "Pride of" is PO i.e. P&O. The Pride of Bruges under discussion here isn't the same as the first ship to carry that name, which was a sister of the ill-fated Herald of Free Enterprise originally named "Pride of Free Enterprise". The whole "Free Enterprise" thing came from the fact that Townsend Thoresen was, at the time, one of the few ferry companies that wasn't in some way Government owned, and was competing primarily with Sealink (BR/SNCF/SNCB), but was dropped after the Herald disaster. The other sister was the Spirit of Free Enterprise which was renamed the Pride of Kent, a name which has also been reused.
The 1987 Pride of Dover was an upgraded version of the Spirit class ships - bigger, but the same very distinctive design with an obvious separate hull and superstructure, as distinct from most ferries which are slab-sided.
(I was a bit of a ferry nut when I was a kid!
)
cactustwirly
Established Member
It's long been a naming scheme, largely because "Pride of" is PO i.e. P&O. The Pride of Bruges under discussion here isn't the same as the first ship to carry that name, which was a sister of the ill-fated Herald of Free Enterprise originally named "Pride of Free Enterprise". The whole "Free Enterprise" thing came from the fact that Townsend Thoresen was, at the time, one of the few ferry companies that wasn't in some way Government owned, and was competing primarily with Sealink (BR/SNCF/SNCB), but was dropped after the Herald disaster. The other sister was the Spirit of Free Enterprise which was renamed the Pride of Kent, a name which has also been reused.
The 1987 Pride of Dover was an upgraded version of the Spirit class ships - bigger, but the same very distinctive design with an obvious separate hull and superstructure, as distinct from most ferries which are slab-sided.
(I was a bit of a ferry nut when I was a kid!
I went on the Pride of Calais 10 years ago, I was shocked at how bad it was. The ship was small and cramped and the interior was very old and tatty.
The two Spirit ferries are ok though, although I have heard the two ex Seafrance twins with DFDS have been refurbished to a high standard, and are actually a lot better than P&O.
CC 72100
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The two SeaFrance twins were excellent when I used them 12-13 years ago - seemed much nicer than the P&O offering at the time. I've not sailed on either of the Spirits.
It's long been a naming scheme, largely because "Pride of" is PO i.e. P&O. The Pride of Bruges under discussion here isn't the same as the first ship to carry that name, which was a sister of the ill-fated Herald of Free Enterprise originally named "Pride of Free Enterprise". The whole "Free Enterprise" thing came from the fact that Townsend Thoresen was, at the time, one of the few ferry companies that wasn't in some way Government owned, and was competing primarily with Sealink (BR/SNCF/SNCB), but was dropped after the Herald disaster. The other sister was the Spirit of Free Enterprise which was renamed the Pride of Kent, a name which has also been reused.
The 1987 Pride of Dover was an upgraded version of the Spirit class ships - bigger, but the same very distinctive design with an obvious separate hull and superstructure, as distinct from most ferries which are slab-sided.
(I was a bit of a ferry nut when I was a kid!
I'm glad I'm not the only guy who was a ferry nut as a kid, though I never grew up and get to play with real ones now!
I always thought that there was a lot of irony in the Pride of names, especially when watching the hideously jumboised and rust streaked Pride of Hampshire lumbering into Portsmouth Harbour and wondering if anyone in the county was truly proud of her! A ship that only an accountant could love.
I sailed on the ex Seafrance twins early this year and was very disappointed. They didn't really have any character, just lots of blandly similar rooms. They hadn't even made a feature of the signature double height lobby with huge windows.
CC 72100
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A real shame - they were very much a great feature in the SeaFrance days and really lightened up the interior whereas I found the P&O offering felt quite cramped and oppressive inside.
As for your comments on the Jumbosized Viking sisters - I thought even accountants could recognise ugliness when it was so painfully obvious haha
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I was always quite impressed, however ugly they might have been, that you could just lop a slice out of a ferry with a cutting torch and weld an extra bit in! Spirit of Free Enterprise was lengthened in a massive "cut and shut" operation, I believe, though at least that made them look better rather than the ugly addition of an extra car deck to the Vikings.
Did seem very much a Townsend Thoresen thing to do.
cactustwirly
Established Member
DFDS are Danish so they have a Scandinavian style interior
It didn't even feel like that to be honest - I couldn't really see any style at all - compared to Stena who do interiors really well, it was just chairs and tables, no variation between the rooms, no warmth, no thought!
It was actually even more complicated than that for the Super Vikings (and two of the original FEs - VI and VII). They kept the original aft part of the hull, with the engine room, and added a new double height vehicle deck above it, with the existing superstructure above that. Forward, the existing hull above the waterline became the new upper vehicle deck, and a new, considerably wider hull was added below. Each pair of sister's new forward hull were launched as a single double ended hull, then cut in half to be fitted to each ship. This left oddities such as lifeboats which were located on original width decks, but above widened sections of the hull, meaning huge frames were added on to ensure that the boats would never hit the hull on the way down. How any naval architect came up with the idea is beyond me, but as you say, very impressive!
It was Sten Olsson, founder of Stena who famously said that ships only look good on the balance sheet, I think it was when he was ordering a similarly hideous jumboisation of a couple of his ferries!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Found some photos of the process for FE VI here:
MV Free Enterprise VI – Past and Present
MV Pride of El Salam 95 - ex Pride of Ailsa, Pride of Sandwich, Free Enterprise VI - Steel triple screw motor vessel, built by N.V. Werf “Gusto”, Schiedam, (Yard No. CO 881) for Townsends in 1972 as a passenger and roll-on-roll-off car and commercial vehicle ferry.
www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk
And for Viking Valiant:
MV Viking Valiant – Past and Present
MV Mogado- ex Nador, Pride of Al Salam I, Pride of Cherbourg, Pride of Le Havre, Viking Valiant - Steel triple screw motor vessel built in 1974 by Aalborg Værft A/S, Aalborg, Denmark (Yard no 204) for Townsend-Thoresen European Ferries as a passenger and vehicle ferry.
www.doverferryphotosforums.co.uk
Always thought the FEs looked odd, anyway, appearing to have two bridges.
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cactustwirly
Established Member
Isn't that what P&O did with the Darwin twins?
Stena are doing this with the ex Birkenhead to Belfast ferries which are moving to the Baltic.
Btw the Pride of Burgundy is back in service on the Dover to Calais route, apparently since the end of last month.
Stena have altered quite a few vessels. The former Harwich - Hook van Holland pair got lengthened and two of the freight vessels which are now run by Marine Atlantic has a big makeover to add more passenger accommodation before heading to Canada.
According the ships ais the Pride of Burgundy left Newhaven on 24th October and then entered service on the 3rd November.
cactustwirly
Established Member
In other ferry news, the Stena Baltica is returning back to Brittany Ferries as the Contentin, with Ètretat (ex Norman Voyager) subsequently returning to Stena. With rumours of the Le Havre route getting the chop.
I think the Darwin conversion left the vehicle decks alone, and just added additional passenger accomodation
The Marine Atlantic / Stena conversion was also unique because the ships were shortened - the Marine Atlantic captains had set a limit on the size of ship for the route due to space limitations in one of the ports, and so they cut the ships in half and took a 12m section out of the middle. Stena are very keen on their 'Stenability' concept, which means they design ships to be capable of significant conversions fairly easily, to allow easy charter / sale / redeployment. Their eflexer fleet is a good example - the same basic ship is being used for Portsmouth - Spain and Dover - Calais charters to Brittany Ferries and DFDS respectively - it is difficult to imagine two more different international routes!
The 'eflexer' example is really good. Whilst they all look pretty much the same from the outside when you look at some aerial shots of the Stena and Brittany Ferries examples you can see that the former has a car deck where the latter has cabins and more outside space at the rear. The DFDS example will also change this again by having more passenger areas and also being designed for the births at Dover and Calais. The niferry site has a table which shows that the other two Brittany Ferries examples will be powered by LNG and two Stena examples will be longer at 240m rather than 215m.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Not sure about the Côte du Opale, but the other Dover ferries don't have an internal ramp between decks 3&5 because the linkspans are have two levels.
This is also why the ferries have limited use with other operators once they are withdrawn
The Pride of Burgundy is now moored on the river fal.
www.bbc.co.uk
'Favourite' cross-Channel ferry moored on river in Cornwall
The Pride of Burgundy is a favourite with ferry enthusiasts but has been out of service since May.
www.bbc.co.uk
'Favourite' cross-Channel ferry moored on river in Cornwall
Published10 hours ago
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IMAGE COPYRIGHTSTEVE ROBARTS
image captionThe Pride of Burgundy is moored on the river Fal and faces "an uncertain future"
A "favourite" cross-Channel ferry that has been taken out of service is now moored on a river in Cornwall.
The P&O Pride of Burgundy served the Dover to Calais route for 26 years but is now on the River Fal near Truro.
Shipping enthusiasts said it was "very sad" the ship they called "the Burg" had been laid up due to the falling demand during the Covid-19 pandemic.
Shipping writer Nige Scutt said "she is a favourite" and feared she may not return to service.
P&O said it was "not providing any details or comments on this matter to the media, at this time".
IMAGE COPYRIGHTDOVER STRAITS SHIPPING
image captionThe Pride of Burgundy is distinguishable to enthusiasts by a black assembly on her funnel they jokingly call her "start handle"
Mr Scutt from Dover Strait Shipping said: "The River Fal has traditionally been where ships go to lay up, and quite often it's the last place we will see well-loved ships before they are sold to a breakers yard.
"She has an uncertain future."
The ferry has capacity for 1,420 passengers and 530 cars according to P&O and served the Dover to Calais route from 1993.
A lack of demand during the coronavirus pandemic saw her taken out of service in May, and laid up in Leith in Edinburgh for several months, before being moved to Cornwall in December.
IMAGE COPYRIGHTSTEVE ROBARTS
image captionThe ship was laid up in Leith Edinburgh for several months in 2020
Mr Scutt said it was "rather fitting that the Burgundy lays at rest on the upper reaches of the river in such beautiful surroundings".
Explaining her popularity he said: "She was a half-way house. Not entirely freight and not entirely passenger.
"She is unique and that is what has made her one of most people's favourites."
IMAGE COPYRIGHTMARK WILLIS
image captionThe River Fal is a popular place for comercial ships to be laid up
The ship had a major refit in 2017, and some crew members had worked on her since she first came into service.
In October P&O announced it was scrapping its service between Hull and Belgium and reducing its cross-Channel services.
Truro harbour master, Mark Killingback, said it was "part of our core business to provide a sheltered location for ship owners to lay up vessels during downturns in trade".
"The port was full in 2007 with vessels after the banking crisis," he added.
Hawkwood Junc
Member
This is a fascinating thread that brings back a number of childhood memories of trips to France in the 90s and early 2000s. I used to love thumbing through the old P&O brochure that even had some high level deck plans of the ships on the Portsmouth routes.
P&O seemed to miss the mark more and more as time went on, mores the pity. The Olau twins - Pride of Portsmouth and Pride of Le Havre were too big for the Le Havre route. The Vikings on the Cherbourg route had a bit of character but were dreadfully dated vs. Brittany's equivalents at the time. The Pride of Bilbao was solid but when Pont Aven came along, it was really fighting a losing battle on time and facilities on the Spain route. That said, Brittany were always quasi-public so the competition wasn't "fair" in that sense.
At Dover I couldn't stand the old jumboised Pride of Kent that always seemed crowded and claustrophobic. Ambivalent about the 1987 Pride's of Dover and Calais. The only times I went on the new Pride of Kent/Canterbury I was lucky enough to be in the Club lounge which was situated high up above the bow and gave a great view. Did like the Burgundy though, a shame to see it laid up in the Fall but an obvious sign of the times.
P&O seemed to miss the mark more and more as time went on, mores the pity. The Olau twins - Pride of Portsmouth and Pride of Le Havre were too big for the Le Havre route. The Vikings on the Cherbourg route had a bit of character but were dreadfully dated vs. Brittany's equivalents at the time. The Pride of Bilbao was solid but when Pont Aven came along, it was really fighting a losing battle on time and facilities on the Spain route. That said, Brittany were always quasi-public so the competition wasn't "fair" in that sense.
At Dover I couldn't stand the old jumboised Pride of Kent that always seemed crowded and claustrophobic. Ambivalent about the 1987 Pride's of Dover and Calais. The only times I went on the new Pride of Kent/Canterbury I was lucky enough to be in the Club lounge which was situated high up above the bow and gave a great view. Did like the Burgundy though, a shame to see it laid up in the Fall but an obvious sign of the times.
Cloud Strife
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A great comparison is with what Tallink have done on the Tallinn-Helsinki route. They transformed what was a very grotty booze cruise experience in the 1990's and early 2000's into a genuinely premium experience - Star, Megastar and the future MyStar are fantastic, roomy vessels with plenty of room to move around onboard. The ships also don't hang about - they cover the 80km in 2 hours, while P&O have now slowed Dover-Calais down to 90 minutes despite the two terminals being only 40km apart.
P&O in comparison never seemed particularly bothered about introducing such standards on Dover-Calais.
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