The end is nigh for the Southern service to Milton Keynes, but what does this mean for the future of the south WCML and West London Line?

[61653 HTAFC]

Er, Bedwyn? Possibly the most bizarre terminus in the UK (though travel habits have built up around driving to it).

It's more about paths than about MKC itself which has two reversal platforms (2 and currently-unused 2a - the latter is intended for EWR).

Bedwyn is an odd choice of terminus for sure... though it's not as if Westbury (a marginally less odd option) is a bustling metropolis either!

We're going off topic though. I'm not sure if there's call for a trivia thread on peculiar terminuses, but we've probably covered it with Bedwyn!

Back on topic, presumably more paths will be available post-HS2?

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the main post HS2 proposal I've seen there would be 3tph Euston-Bletchley slow in place of the Tring services, with the MKC slows becoming Northampton slows, though things obviously change and that might rather overserve Cheddington!

 

[cle]

Bletchley will become a more important junction in time, (and should have a ton of development in theory!) - but it's more that there isn't much alternative. And there are new services coming from Oxford which are frankly built around the connection to MKC. So what moves for those, or at least one of them. 2A is short and so should fit a EWR service.

I can't see Bedford (or Cambridge) ever getting into MKC right now: a fifth track up to MKC is always debated but not happening any time soon. Bletchley does have spare platform capacity for terminating and reversals on that side, and the slow services are empty by their northern end due to lots of semis. Not too many local journeys and LB/Bletchley have many other services to MKC if something moves from EWR/Marston.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Given there's a need to provide a level of Metro service between, say, Croydon and Clapham Junction, I would have thought a winning solution would have been a half-hourly West Croydon - Clapham Junction - Kensington - Watford Junction, not least because the capacity needed between West Croydon and Clapham via intermediate stations would not be as high, and you'd still be supplying a half-hourly service from Epsom Downs and a half-hourly service from the East Croydon direction along the Selhurst stopping corridor.

I know I can dream, but the fact it isn't half-hourly is part of the reason it was never as successful as it should have been. And could be.

Obviously, something like Three Bridges or Gatwick - Milton Keynes with limited stops would be *stunning*. Find a way to just ease them across the Balham crossovers in parallel every 30 minutes and we would have a totally different balance of passenger usage in the area.

There is no capacity for two trains an hour as the other path is the hourly freight path, and the West London line is full with freight and London Overground services.

 

[HS2isgood]

There is no capacity for two trains an hour as the other path is the hourly freight path, and the West London line is full with freight and London Overground services.

Could a change in signalling in the West London Line accommodate more trains? 5 tph passenger and 1 tph freight isn't a lot, especially when all passenger services stop at all stations.

 

[RT4038]

Er, Bedwyn? Possibly the most bizarre terminus in the UK (though travel habits have built up around driving to it).

It's more about paths than about MKC itself which has two reversal platforms (2 and currently-unused 2a - the latter is intended for EWR).

Not sure that there is anywhere close to the size and importance of Milton Keynes one, or indeed several, stops west of Bedwyn?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure that there is anywhere close to the size and importance of Milton Keynes one, or indeed several, stops west of Bedwyn?

No, but bear in mind that stopping services to Bletchley aren't necessarily about going to MK, they're about going to London. The existing stopping service to MKC is quite adequate for the level of demand to go the other way.

 

[Bald Rick]

Could a change in signalling in the West London Line accommodate more trains? 5 tph passenger and 1 tph freight isn't a lot, especially when all passenger services stop at all stations.

there are, on average, 75 freight paths each way a day on the WLL (actually there’s a lot more but many are duplicate). which is rather a lot more than 1 per hour.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Best thing (just come up on the Snorbens thread) would be to reinstate WCML platforms at Willesden, then you've got excellent connections with every LNR train to get to Clapham, Old Oak (for HS2 and Heathrow) etc. There's still space, though even better would be to add fast line platform loops as well else only the MKCs and Trings could call, not the Birminghams.

If you just did slow line platforms, it'd be one of the cheapest builds possible. The land is still available, so all you'd need to build is platforms, shelters and stairs/lifts to link to the existing station buildings, and the gain for south WCML connectivity would be huge.

 

[Purple Train]

Are platforms 5 and 6 at Bletchley electrified, and is the route from the Down Slow into them cleared for passenger use? Because, if so, could terminators from Euston run into them (so they become, in an operational sense, terminating platforms usable from either end)?

 

[PTR 444]

We're going off topic though. I'm not sure if there's call for a trivia thread on peculiar terminuses, but we've probably covered it with Bedwyn!

Don’t forget Chathill too

Best thing (just come up on the Snorbens thread) would be to reinstate WCML platforms at Willesden, then you've got excellent connections with every LNR train to get to Clapham, Old Oak (for HS2 and Heathrow) etc. There's still space, though even better would be to add fast line platform loops as well else only the MKCs and Trings could call, not the Birminghams.

If you just did slow line platforms, it'd be one of the cheapest builds possible. The land is still available, so all you'd need to build is platforms, shelters and stairs/lifts to link to the existing station buildings, and the gain for south WCML connectivity would be huge.

It’s a wonder why Willesden Junction was never developed into a more prominent hub like Clapham Jcn was. Compared with stopping outersuburban trains at Wembley Central and Harrow & Wealdstone, this would generate a lot more usage as passengers would only have a single change to get to a variety of destinations within north and west London.

I guess once OOC is built, the case for stopping fast WCML trains at Willesden will only become much stronger, with the two stations practically acting as one mega complex.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Don’t forget Chathill too


It’s a wonder why Willesden Junction was never developed into a more prominent hub like Clapham Jcn was. Compared with stopping outersuburban trains at Wembley & Harrow, this would generate a lot more usage as passengers would only have a single change to get to a variety of destinations within north and west London.

I guess once OOC is built, the case for stopping WCML trains at Willesden will only become much stronger, with the two stations practically acting as one mega complex.

I think the answer is that neither station was actually planned with any specific long term goals in mind. Just "Railway Mania" speculation and then the best part of two centuries trying to make what we ended up with work!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are platforms 5 and 6 at Bletchley electrified

Yes. I've boarded possibly the only 12-car 350 to ever call at 6 in service, quite possibly the only 350 to ever call there, front 4 released only! If any others ever did, they were probably on the same day due to the same incident, but I think it was fixed fairly quickly after my train.

It ran from MKC via the Up Bletchley, a barely-used (odd bit of freight) old jointed-track line which appears to the onlooker to be part of the carriage sidings but actually isn't, due to a stuck set of points.

and is the route from the Down Slow into them cleared for passenger use?

5 yes. 6 I'm not sure since the last changearound, the above was a long time ago.

Because, if so, could terminators from Euston run into them (so they become, in an operational sense, terminating platforms usable from either end)?

They already do, though there aren't many of them, just at extremes of the day.

 

[London Trains]

Best thing (just come up on the Snorbens thread) would be to reinstate WCML platforms at Willesden, then you've got excellent connections with every LNR train to get to Clapham, Old Oak (for HS2 and Heathrow) etc. There's still space, though even better would be to add fast line platform loops as well else only the MKCs and Trings could call, not the Birminghams.

If you just did slow line platforms, it'd be one of the cheapest builds possible. The land is still available, so all you'd need to build is platforms, shelters and stairs/lifts to link to the existing station buildings, and the gain for south WCML connectivity would be huge.

I'd combine OOC and Willesden Junction into one "mega hub" all called OOC.

OOC would have 2 WCML slow line platforms and 4 fast line platforms (to allow all services to call including Avanti by alternating platforms).

The LO platforms on the NLL/WLL would be moved southwards to be in the middle of the combined station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd combine OOC and Willesden Junction into one "mega hub" all called OOC.

OOC would have 2 WCML slow line platforms and 4 fast line platforms (to allow all services to call including Avanti by alternating platforms).

The LO platforms on the NLL/WLL would be moved southwards to be in the middle of the combined station.

That seems a really good idea and would massively enhance connectivity to/from HS2, Heathrow and most of north London. Get it built!

But even just putting slow line platforms on the WCML is one of the cheapest "new station" projects imaginable. Literally just two 12 car platforms (or push the boat out to 256m to allow Pendolinos to call in emergency) and some bridging, stairs and 2 lifts.

 

[Purple Train]

That seems a really good idea and would massively enhance connectivity to/from HS2, Heathrow and most of north London. Get it built!

It would take up most of north-west London!

To digress: the complex proposed by @London Trains would be enormous, at roughly a third of a mile (587 yards) from the WCML platforms to the GWML platforms, and with the new station box very long (roughly half a mile?), would it even merit its own light rail system to ferry passengers from one end to the other?

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would take up most of north-west London!

To digress: the complex proposed by @London Trains would be enormous, at roughly a third of a mile (587 yards) from the WCML platforms to the GWML platforms, and with the new station box very long (roughly half a mile?), would it even merit its own light rail system to ferry passengers from one end to the other?

No worse than an airport. Travelators would do it.

That said you'd still get most of the benefit from just putting platforms on the WCML slow lines, a very cheap addition indeed. You could get to the other bit using the frequent LO service.

Probably rename it to "Willesden Junction for Old Oak Common" to advertise the fact.

 

[JonathanH]

But even just putting slow line platforms on the WCML is one of the cheapest "new station" projects imaginable. Literally just two 12 car platforms (or push the boat out to 256m to allow Pendolinos to call in emergency) and some bridging, stairs and 2 lifts.

How much disruption has building the simple station at Brent Cross caused? Multiple weekend closures on a route which is less intensively trafficked than the WCML.

 

[Purple Train]

No worse than an airport. Travelators would do it.

The signage would probably be interesting as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How much disruption has building the simple station at Brent Cross caused?

I'm not saying that building new stations doesn't cause disruption. I'm just saying it's about the cheapest such project imaginable, other than "one 50m platform and a bus shelter" on a rural line, though because that'd be likely to have a car park it may well even be cheaper than that. It'd also be entirely on land already owned by the railway.

 

[2192]

Er, Bedwyn? Possibly the most bizarre terminus in the UK (though travel habits have built up around driving to it).

Isn't Bedwyn effectively a "Marlborough Parkway" ?

 

[mr_jrt]

Here's what I crayoned for Willesden back in 2015:

Light sections are what I proposed to build at first, dark sections are passive provison (so realign the lines, but don't build anything).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't Bedwyn effectively a "Marlborough Parkway" ?

Sort of, but I'd drive to Hungerford for the better service. Once you're in the car going a bit further isn't much effort.

 

[zwk500]

5 yes. 6 I'm not sure since the last changearound, the above was a long time ago.

I'm 99% certain 6 is, given there's a wrong-road signal and a crossover back to the down Marston Vale.

Here's what I crayoned for Willesden back in 2015:

Light sections are what I proposed to build at first, dark sections are passive provison (so realign the lines, but don't build anything).

I see you've left lots of room for the Overground depot, and although the loss of connections at Willesden West London Jn isn't critical (after all, crossing the fasts is a pain in the neck) it forces other operational problems. I also note your realigned DC/Bakerloo route doesn't leave space for the City Line connections between the NLL and the low-level platforms, heavily used by ECS moves at the end of the day to access the depot.

 

[mr_jrt]

I see you've left lots of room for the Overground depot, and although the loss of connections at Willesden West London Jn isn't critical (after all, crossing the fasts is a pain in the neck) it forces other operational problems. I also note your realigned DC/Bakerloo route doesn't leave space for the City Line connections between the NLL and the low-level platforms, heavily used by ECS moves at the end of the day to access the depot.

From what I recall, I didn't try to show every connection, just the most important ones. I suspect you could quite easily realign the connection from the City Line to the centre DC platforms crossing the up loop at grade, for example. No big issue if it's not a heavily used route.

As I say, it was crayoning more than anything, but I'm always keen to learn. All criticisms welcome.

 

[Bald Rick]

West London Jn is absolutely critical - enables a route from the NLL at Camden to Acton when the main NLL is blocked via Hampstead.

 

[cactustwirly]

Sort of, but I'd drive to Hungerford for the better service. Once you're in the car going a bit further isn't much effort.

Hungerford has the same service as Bedwyn

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hungerford has the same service as Bedwyn

It appears (I checked) to have a couple more IETs to/from Exeter/Plymouth-Paddington than Bedwyn does.

 

[cactustwirly]

It appears (I checked) to have a couple more IETs to/from Exeter/Plymouth-Paddington than Bedwyn does.

Being pedantic it has a handful of extra 802s in the peaks, but for most people the service is the same

 

[zwk500]

From what I recall, I didn't try to show every connection, just the most important ones. I suspect you could quite easily realign the connection from the City Line to the centre DC platforms crossing the up loop at grade, for example. No big issue if it's not a heavily used route.

As I say, it was crayoning more than anything, but I'm always keen to learn. All criticisms welcome.

I appreciate it's just crayoning, but that geometry is either going to be suitable for decent linespeed or permit the crossovers to facilitate the movements, it can't do both.