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The environmental costs of modern HGVs vs freight locomotives.

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furnessvale

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mods note - split from this thread:


Sadly, the pulverised slate for Hope continues to arrive in 44tonnes HGVs. Even worse, each 44 tonner then backloads with stone from the quarries removing even more traffic from rail.
 
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paul1609

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Sadly, the pulverised slate for Hope continues to arrive in 44tonnes HGVs. Even worse, each 44 tonner then backloads with stone from the quarries removing even more traffic from rail.
Environmentally friendly Euro 6 lorries rather than 1960s design rail locos without emission control that spew particulate emissions over a wide area as they pass through built up areas?
 

AndrewE

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Environmentally friendly Euro 6 lorries rather than 1960s design rail locos without emission control that spew particulate emissions over a wide area as they pass through built up areas?
is that a joke? Thousand-Tonne trains, super-efficient hp per Tonne compared to road, old locos maybe - but not kerbside on streets through towns and cities. I know which I would rather have going past me - and my grandchildren.
 

lammergeier

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Environmentally friendly Euro 6 lorries rather than 1960s design rail locos without emission control that spew particulate emissions over a wide area as they pass through built up areas?
It's a good job those "environmentally friendly" lorries don't cause appalling congestion whilst emitting fairy dust in the built up areas and peak district villages through which they pass. And it's even better that they don't cause a danger to cyclists and pedestrians. There are far too many quarry trucks in the Peak District, absolutely nobody cares that they are Euro 6.
 

furnessvale

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Environmentally friendly Euro 6 lorries rather than 1960s design rail locos without emission control that spew particulate emissions over a wide area as they pass through built up areas?
A single loco may be dirtier than a single HGV, but divide the loco's emissions by the number of HGVs it replaces (50 to 75) and emissions per tonne/km carried are far less by rail, Euro 6 or not.

By the way, Euro 6 only works if you put Adblue in the tank. Have you seen how many emulators are fitted, bypassing the computer and multiplying HGV emissions by a factor of 20+.
 

Signal_Box

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Environmentally friendly Euro 6 lorries rather than 1960s design rail locos without emission control that spew particulate emissions over a wide area as they pass through built up areas?

Class 66 or at worse class 60 neither of which are 1960s designs..
 

ac6000cw

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The 2 stroke diesel engines in a class 66 are modified versions of a 1950 design.
No they're not - they have EMD/Progress Rail 710 series engines originally introduced in 1983 (the variant used in most of them dates from 1998, the 66/9s have a low-emissions version).

The 57s and 59s have EMD 645 series engines originally introduced in 1965.

We don't have any locos fitted with EMD 567 series engines, originally introduced in 1938.
 

Signal_Box

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The 2 stroke diesel engines in a class 66 are modified versions of a 1950 design.

Im not an expert so I won’t argue the point, I’ll leave that to someone else….

However, Class 66s aren’t driven by people who have been rushed through HGV training, operated by cowboy firms who have little regard for public safety.

Class 66s also don’t speed down hills and kill innocent people thanks to poor maintenance of the vehicle and poor driver training.
 

HSTEd

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A single loco may be dirtier than a single HGV, but divide the loco's emissions by the number of HGVs it replaces (50 to 75) and emissions per tonne/km carried are far less by rail, Euro 6 or not.
Good luck replacing 75 HGVs with a single 1960s design locomotive. The Aberystwyth wood train managed 8 per locomotive!

Class 66s also don’t speed down hills and kill innocent people thanks to poor maintenance of the vehicle and poor driver training.

Only because they have far less opportunity to do so.

CLass 66 locomotives have come very close to killing track workers in large numbers before - like that time the locomotive ran away and repeatedly ran through a track worksite in South Manchester.
And the air pollution from garbage ancient diesel engines kills people every day
 
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Dr Hoo

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By the way, Euro 6 only works if you put Adblue in the tank. Have you seen how many emulators are fitted, bypassing the computer and multiplying HGV emissions by a factor of 20+.
Rather than just posting some rather vague innuendo can you provide any details of how many emulators you have seen on vehicles used on stone traffic between North Wales <-> North West England?

Can you also post a link to some scientific research confirming the extent to which Adblue reduces HGV emissions (given your suggestion that its removal or absence increases them so massively).

(For the avoidance of doubt, the use of emulators (on applicable vehicles) is illegal in the UK and companies have been debarred by the Traffic Commissioners for contraventions. A typical roadside inspection will include checking that the Adblue system is functioning.)
 

furnessvale

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Good luck replacing 75 HGVs with a single 1960s design locomotive. The Aberystwyth wood train managed 8 per locomotive!
A typical stone train in my area is hauled by a 60 or a 66 and has 22 to 24 wagons, each with a capacity of 79tonnes.

That equates to 65 x 44 tonnes hgvs or 95 four axle tippers.

Not sure why you think the unique situation on the Aberystwyth line is typical of railfreight.
 

chorleyjeff

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Im not an expert so I won’t argue the point, I’ll leave that to someone else….

However, Class 66s aren’t driven by people who have been rushed through HGV training, operated by cowboy firms who have little regard for public safety.

Class 66s also don’t speed down hills and kill innocent people thanks to poor maintenance of the vehicle and poor driver training.
To clarify matters. In the last 10 years how many innocent people have been killed or injuried by dangerously driven or badly maintained HGVs ? Or have you an estimate based on evidence ?
 

furnessvale

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Rather than just posting some rather vague innuendo can you provide any details of how many emulators you have seen on vehicles used on stone traffic between North Wales <-> North West England?

Can you also post a link to some scientific research confirming the extent to which Adblue reduces HGV emissions (given your suggestion that its removal or absence increases them so massively).

(For the avoidance of doubt, the use of emulators (on applicable vehicles) is illegal in the UK and companies have been debarred by the Traffic Commissioners for contraventions. A typical roadside inspection will include checking that the Adblue system is functioning.)
The internet is FULL of this information. I have no intention of spoon feeding it to you any more than I would discuss the shape of the earth with a flat earther.
 

HSTEd

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The internet is FULL of this information. I have no intention of spoon feeding it to you any more than I would discuss the shape of the earth with a flat earther.
Inspections done in previous years indicate that the proportion of vehicles fitted with Adblue emulators is very small, it was around 2% and now has dropped to closer to 0.2% of vehicles.

Ultimately given the extremely low cost of aqueous urea solution, there is little reason to actually fit such equipment.
 

zwk500

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To clarify matters. In the last 10 years how many innocent people have been killed or injuried by dangerously driven or badly maintained HGVs ? Or have you an estimate based on evidence ?
Page 1 of this report: https://bettertransport.org.uk/site...Fatal HGV collision rates ten year tables.pdf has a very useful chart. There was also a case very recently of a driver in the Tyneside area (I think) who killed 3 people because he was on his phone at the wheel of an HGV.
 

furnessvale

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Inspections done in previous years indicate that the proportion of vehicles fitted with Adblue emulators is very small, it was around 2% and now has dropped to closer to 0.2% of vehicles.

Ultimately given the extremely low cost of aqueous urea solution, there is little reason to actually fit such equipment.
Adblue costs 48ppl when bought by the 1000litres and has to be used at a ratio of 1:20 with diesel so not an insignificant cost. More importantly, the use of an emulator enables an HGV to run with a defective computer, the cost of repair of which can be substantial.
 

Signal_Box

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To clarify matters. In the last 10 years how many innocent people have been killed or injuried by dangerously driven or badly maintained HGVs ? Or have you an estimate based on evidence ?

I can think of one incident in Bath I think it was…a grandparent and child where crushed sadly.
 

Dr Hoo

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Page 1 of this report: https://bettertransport.org.uk/sites/default/files/pdfs/26.11.17 Fatal HGV collision rates ten year tables.pdf has a very useful chart. There was also a case very recently of a driver in the Tyneside area (I think) who killed 3 people because he was on his phone at the wheel of an HGV.
Thank you for that chart. It is always nice to be directed to some genuine data that one hasn't seen before.

Without wishing to appear ungrateful, unless I am missing something there is no indication of how many of the incidents were caused by badly driven or poorly maintained HGVs. When driving on roads with lots of lorries I am normally far more worried about things like reckless overtaking and last-minute lane changes by smaller vehicles.

Inspections done in previous years indicate that the proportion of vehicles fitted with Adblue emulators is very small, it was around 2% and now has dropped to closer to 0.2% of vehicles.

Ultimately given the extremely low cost of aqueous urea solution, there is little reason to actually fit such equipment.
Thank you for this also.
 

zwk500

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Without wishing to appear ungrateful, unless I am missing something there is no indication of how many of the incidents were caused by badly driven or poorly maintained HGVs. When driving on roads with lots of lorries I am normally far more worried about things like reckless overtaking and last-minute lane changes by smaller vehicles.
You aren't missing anything, it's a comparison of how often HGVs are involved in fatal incidents compared to all traffic, not a breakdown of the causes of HGV incidents. I would personally be very interested in such a study, but I suspect the data is much less available or precise, so it's probably not in the public domain.

However, from the data I've provided it can be seen that HGVs are involved in somewhere between 2.5-3 times the number of fatalities as all traffic combined, and given that HGVs do not make up a similar proportion of all road traffic the safety benefit of removing HGVs from the roads is clearly substantial, and there is a very good case to say that the environmental damage of a single class 66 will kill less people than leaving 50 HGVs on the A55 would by road traffic incidents alone, even if the particulate emissions were to be less harmful. Has there been a fatal incident on the railway involving a freight train since Great Heck?
 

Dr Hoo

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It is a basic law of physics that a sudden incident involving a large mass moving at relatively high speed is going to be more destructive than one involving a small mass. So no real surprise that HGVs are involved in more serious outcomes. And 'yes', reducing lorry traffic will undoubtedly make the roads safer.

Nevertheless, a quick skim of RAIB reports will show a disturbing number of rail mishaps involving freight trains (or other movements operated by freight drivers and with similar characteristics). These include runaways due to poor train preparation or in freezing conditions, serious wagon maintenance defects, empty containers blowing off trains, staff affected by fatigue or distraction, unevenly loaded wagons and so on. This is quite apart from non-train issues like defective track, landslips, etc. The industry has been extremely 'fortunate' that some of these incidents haven't involved multiple fatalities. Using the principle in the first paragraph, an incident involving a 2,500-tonne train is potentially far more destructive than even a 44-tonne HGV.

Turning back to the environmental issues of the slate waste traffic in particular, it is regrettable that bulk material has to be transported so far to the cement works. This has only arisen because local supplies of suitable shale are nearly exhausted. The whole reason for works being in Derbyshire originally was the availability of most of the ingredients for cement manufacture close at hand, with a low transport cost and environmental footprint. To make matters worse the manufacture of cement liberates large amounts of CO2 from the limestone, quite apart from burning an interesting mixture of coal, tyre waste and RDF/'biomass' (don't ask...).

Ways of producing cement more efficiently in terms of emissions are being explored by various companies and may well lead to changes in the nature (and location) of manufacture over time. It is a lot more complicated than just "Yippee there are new freight trains on the North Wales Coast".
 
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