The 'gamechanger' solution to the problem of leaves on the line

[superkopite]

A personal opinion is that it is not the extreme end of the environmental lobby that are the most likely to oppose the cutting down of line side trees, although there are some. It is people living in neighbouring properties who are frightened about the noise, don’t like the different view, worry that it might devalue the property or, horror of horror, fear that impertinent passengers might be able to see into their living rooms. However, claiming that your opposition is on purely environmental ground sound much better than straightforward selfishness.

Are they selfish? They sound like very legitimate concerns, to me

 

[snowball]

Leaves on the line have been a problem for donkeys years, partly due to disc brakes replacing tread brakes on rolling stock, but also because lineside trees are simply not managed properly.

Isn't it also because there are no longer lots of steam trains throwing out sparks to set fire to the lineside scrub?

 

[Wyrleybart]

Isn't it also because there are no longer lots of steam trains throwing out sparks to set fire to the lineside scrub?

Not so much. The "platelayers" kept their piece of railway infrastructure in good order, whcih meant the linesides as well as the permanent way. It is the more recent / privatised infrastructure owners who cannot afford to husband their property properly

 

[najaB]

Not so much. The "platelayers" kept their piece of railway infrastructure in good order, whcih meant the linesides as well as the permanent way. It is the more recent / privatised infrastructure owners who cannot afford to husband their property properly

Given that the majority of railway infrastructure is still publicly owned, just at arms-length and the railways were, prior to 1948, pretty much all privately owned - this issue (if there really is one) isn't a consequence of privatisation.

 

[Krokodil]

A personal opinion is that it is not the extreme end of the environmental lobby that are the most likely to oppose the cutting down of line side trees, although there are some. It is people living in neighbouring properties who are frightened about the noise, don’t like the different view, worry that it might devalue the property or, horror of horror, fear that impertinent passengers might be able to see into their living rooms. However, claiming that your opposition is on purely environmental ground sound much better than straightforward selfishness.

Just like the NIMBYs of the Chilterns dressed up their concerns as environmental ones.

Given that the majority of railway infrastructure is still publicly owned, just at arms-length and the railways were, prior to 1948, pretty much all privately owned - this issue (if there really is one) isn't a consequence of privatisation.

Indeed, the "maintenance holiday" was a BR invention.

 

[HSTEd]

Not so much. The "platelayers" kept their piece of railway infrastructure in good order, whcih meant the linesides as well as the permanent way. It is the more recent / privatised infrastructure owners who cannot afford to husband their property properly

Unfortunately, or fortunately depending on you look at it, wages are now sufficiently high to make this sort of obsessive lineside treatment impractical.

And that's before we consider the inevitable safety considerations of a huge increase in lineside work. And the environmental externalities of destroying some of the most biodiverse remaining land in Britain, or the inevitable public backlash from doing so.

Bad adhesion is just a fact of modern railway life, in all honesty it would probably be better to try and improve the operating speed of RHTT systems such that they can operate coupled to regular service trains.

There are various other (partial) solutions, for example new rolling stock should be fitted with emergency track brakes and/or service eddy current brakes.

 

[adamello]

Are they selfish? They sound like very legitimate concerns, to me

I'm the opposite, there's a line at the bottom of the garden with trees either side - I'd prefer them to be gone (not specifically for the railway, but for the further view onto the river)

 

[furnessvale]

What is wrong with water jet blasting as used at present? Does it cause damage en route? I've not been aware that it does and it is a freely-available natural substance. Not only that but the sodden leaves blown away are at least less likely to blow back onto the railhead immediately. The amount of dry ice needed will be huge and there will surely be a signifcant cost to its production and storage.

High pressure water jets are not removing complete leaves from the rail. By the time the jetting train arrives the leaves have been crushed into a hard varnish on the railhead which is why such high pressures are needed to remove it.

No one will thank the railways for putting all that CO2 back into the atmosphere after someone has taken the trouble to remove it.

 

[LYRobert]

What is wrong with water jet blasting as used at present? Does it cause damage en route? I've not been aware that it does and it is a freely-available natural substance. Not only that but the sodden leaves blown away are at least less likely to blow back onto the railhead immediately. The amount of dry ice needed will be huge and there will surely be a signifcant cost to its production and storage.

Dry ice is very cold. It is solidified carbon dioxide, the stuff which we're trying to not release any more of. "Carbon neutral" actually means "Carbon dioxide neutral". It's too much for journalist etc. to say all that, so we hear "Carbon neutral". Carbon is a black solid - charcoal is a common form of it.
And do the tree roots help to stabilise the face of cuttings and embankments? And remove lots of liquid water from the ground as well?

 

[jfowkes]

No one will thank the railways for putting all that CO2 back into the atmosphere after someone has taken the trouble to remove it.

Dry ice is not really a long term storage method for CO2. It would be interesting to compare the energy use of this CO2 method compared to water jets, but apart from that the bare fact that CO2 is used here isn't, on that fact alone, a bad thing. CO2 is a useful industrial chemical.

 

[snowball]

"Carbon neutral" actually means "Carbon dioxide neutral". It's too much for journalist etc. to say all that, so we hear "Carbon neutral".

That may also be related to the fact that other greenhouse gases such as methane are also carbon compounds.

And do the tree roots help to stabilise the face of cuttings and embankments? And remove lots of liquid water from the ground as well?

This has been discussed several times on here by people much more learned than me. The question of whether vegetation does more to help or hinder the stability of slopes seems to be a complex one. It seems to depend on the circumstances at each location.

 

[furnessvale]

Dry ice is not really a long term storage method for CO2. It would be interesting to compare the energy use of this CO2 method compared to water jets, but apart from that the bare fact that CO2 is used here isn't, on that fact alone, a bad thing. CO2 is a useful industrial chemical.

That part of my post was meant to be a little tongue in cheek.

 

[Spartacus]

Isn't it also because there are no longer lots of steam trains throwing out sparks to set fire to the lineside scrub?

It also helped cover the issue that steam locos have poor adhesion to start off with, and tend to drop a lot of oil and grease wherever they go, covering up the issue to varying degrees. I'm sure I read something a few years back that studied delays in a couple of areas prone to leaf fall delays in modern days, and low and behold there were increased adhesion problems in steam days, just that nobody put two and two together.

This has been discussed several times on here by people much more learned than me. The question of whether vegetation does more to help or hinder the stability of slopes seems to be a complex one. It seems to depend on the circumstances at each location.

There was a very old engineer (I think pre-Victorian) who established that only a very small number of species of tree or bush (one I'm sure being a juniper) that helped stabilise embankments, but that was very quickly turned into "trees stabilise embankments" even though he'd also said any other tree makes it worse, and on a properly constructed embankment even the stabilising ones had no beneficial effect. That one bit, taken out of context was repeated time and time again. Now it's a different matter if you're cutting down trees leaving a substantial dead stump and root, which can rot to leave a void but I suppose that might be why these days you often see stumps allowed to resprout and stay alive.

 

[Wynd]

I'm going to show my insight and knowledge of the subject here, but, why don't we fit trains with brushes that brush the leaves off the line, a sort of rotating shoe buffer type thing, that is cleaned as it operates, to mechanically removed the residue and leaves causing the issues...?

 

[Spartacus]

I'm going to show my insight and knowledge of the subject here, but, why don't we fit trains with brushes that brush the leaves off the line, a sort of rotating shoe buffer type thing, that is cleaned as it operates, to mechanically removed the residue and leaves causing the issues...?

With several hundred tonnes of pressure being applied to the leaves, creating the teflon like problem, you'd need a very tough, high speed buffer to do that job, and that would probably damage the railhead in the process, as well as likely being damaged by points and crossings, as well as rail joints, and probably wear out very quickly too even if it didn't cause damage, or just get caked in the contamination. For comparison the water jets typically operate at 1500 bar, close to 22,000 psi, to be effective and will easily cut steel within a few seconds if at a stand.

Where you can use it are on smaller scale buffers, operated 'by hand' (chainsaw type engine), they're often quite large cumbersome things, taking up both rails, or sometimes resemble an overgrown leaf blower, but they operate at walking pace at best, any quicker and they do nothing, and as the railhead isn't a flat surface often need multiple passes to get the job done (think sanding a curved banister with an electric sander). It's very slow, time consuming, and naturally needs a line blockage in place to use, so they're only used to target particular trouble spots that usually won't be dealt with by an RHTT. They're not something that could be used on board a train.

 

[Wynd]

Ah, 1500Bar, I hadn't realised that. Thanks.

Back to the drawing board.

 

[Bald Rick]

Ah, 1500Bar, I hadn't realised that. Thanks.

Back to the drawing board.

to put it in context, 1500bar is enough to cut through the rail in a minute or two.

 

[Wynd]

to put it in context, 1500bar is enough to cut through the rail in a minute or two.

Indeed. I hadn't appreciated that RHTT's were operating at that pressure, nor that the residue that leaves are em, leaving, on the line was that sticky!

 

[47434]

Seasonal Improvement Manager! Not heard that one before.

If you don't work in the rail industry you won't have. Most TOCs/Network Rail have them - seasonal variation massively affects running of trains

 

[Peterthegreat]

If you don't work in the rail industry you won't have. Most TOCs/Network Rail have them - seasonal variation massively affects running of trains

I did well over 30 years in the rail industry. Yes I know the seasons have an effect on the running of trains- but I'd still not heard of that role.

 

[GLC]

New technology, timetable tweaks and leaf-busting trains to keep Scotland’s Railway on time this autumn

Scotland’s Railway will use specialist trains, timetable tweaks and innovative technology to keep passengers and freight running on time throughout autumn.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Dry ice pellets will be trialled around Edinburgh this autumn

 

[zwk500]

New technology, timetable tweaks and leaf-busting trains to keep Scotland’s Railway on time this autumn

Scotland’s Railway will use specialist trains, timetable tweaks and innovative technology to keep passengers and freight running on time throughout autumn.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Dry ice pellets will be trialled around Edinburgh this autumn

Didn't Northern trial a dry ice fitted train in about 2018?

 

[najaB]

Didn't Northern trial a dry ice fitted train in about 2018?

I believe so, but it's likely that the equipment has been improved, possibly based in part on that trial.