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The Liverpool and Manchester Railway and an Interesting Queen Elizabeth fact.

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Neil Polo

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I saw this posted today. I found it rather interesting.
According to Dan Snow, the Queen’s birthday is closer to the 15 September 1830 opening of the Liverpool and Manchester railway than to today :).

As of today Queen Elizabeth II was born closer to the opening of the world's first intercity railway (the Liverpool- Manchester, which started operating on 15 Sept 1830) than to now.
I hope they do something for the 200th anniversary of the Liverpool and Manchester line’s opening.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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That just means the L&M is 191 years old.
I saw the 1980 Cavalcade at Rainhill, when BR and NRM turned out, very successfully, many of the famous locos that still existed.
I'm not sure Lion, which had pride of place in 1980 as the oldest original L&M loco, will be operational (it's in the Museum of Liverpool at Pier Head).
And I doubt we will see the APT - but it ought to be just in time to show off the HS2 trains...

There's also the problem that the line has recently been electrified, which might impact a re-run of the 1980 event.
The line was also closed to normal services for much of the week (it was a 3-day event over the late May bank holiday).
Photos from the grandstands were impacted by the heavy powerlines on the south side of the line (they are still there, plus the railway's new OHLE).
 

Calthrop

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I saw this posted today. I found it rather interesting.
According to Dan Snow, the Queen’s birthday is closer to the 15 September 1830 opening of the Liverpool and Manchester railway than to today :).


If I read the linked item rightly, this interestingly piquant fact came to be the case as at this Nov. 25th just gone. Such odd circumstances can come about, in respect of people who live to a great age -- increasingly so, in fact, the older the people concerned become. I like the "trivia" item of there still being alive at least one person, a grandparent of whom was born in the 18th century. The lucky bod here is Harrison Ruffin Tyler, born in 1928: his father Lyon Gardiner Tyler was born in 1853; his father John Tyler, US President 1841 -- 45, was born in 1790. Harrison's elder brother Lyon Gardiner Tyler Jr. shared the distinction until his death last year aged 95. (The circumstance as with the Tylers, is of course due to its being physically possible for some men to beget children at a decidedly advanced age.)

The "Queen and L & M" fascinating fact, can lead one to make calculations on the same principle: on a lesser, and less impressive, scale, but which can still occasion a bit of surprise if this is stuff about which one has basically not thought before. I'm 73; and my date of birth is closer to the final demise of Brunel's broad gauge, than to today -- in fact, some sixteen or seventeen years closer.
 

Bevan Price

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That just means the L&M is 191 years old.
I saw the 1980 Cavalcade at Rainhill, when BR and NRM turned out, very successfully, many of the famous locos that still existed.
I'm not sure Lion, which had pride of place in 1980 as the oldest original L&M loco, will be operational (it's in the Museum of Liverpool at Pier Head).
And I doubt we will see the APT - but it ought to be just in time to show off the HS2 trains...

There's also the problem that the line has recently been electrified, which might impact a re-run of the 1980 event.
The line was also closed to normal services for much of the week (it was a 3-day event over the late May bank holiday).
Photos from the grandstands were impacted by the heavy powerlines on the south side of the line (they are still there, plus the railway's new OHLE).
Perhaps more important is that there is now nowhere convenient to assemble a large collection of locomotives. Bold Colliery & Power Station sidings have long gone. And whilst Warrington Arpley Yard might have enough space, it would be impracticable to close part of the WCML for several hours to allow a parade to go to & from Rainhill. I think the most we can expect might be a few locos displayed somewhere, e.g. opposite Edge Hill station.
 

6Gman

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I would also throw in the suggestion that the 1980 Cavalcade and event was a commercial failure (I also heard it described as "a disaster"). Don't have chapter and verse but the fact that a week or two before it took place staff were being offered as many free tickets as they wanted (to fill up the stands) was not a good sign!

Who knows what the railway's structure will be by 1930 but I doubt it'll be geared up for a risk on that scale.
 

yorksrob

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As a youngster in the 1980's, WW2 loomed large culturally, but always seemed fairly distant.

But it feels very strange to me that my birth in 1977 is so much closer to WW2 than it is to the current day !
 

flymo

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As a youngster in the 1980's, WW2 loomed large culturally, but always seemed fairly distant.

But it feels very strange to me that my birth in 1977 is so much closer to WW2 than it is to the current day !

Strange for sure. Having checked just now, my birthday in 1966 is closer to WW1 than it is to today. o_O
 

Gloster

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Strange for sure. Having checked just now, my birthday in 1966 is closer to WW1 than it is to today. o_O
You have got me thinking. My birth is nearer the Boer War than today, and I am still several years away from my bus pass.
 

norbitonflyer

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I am now the same age my grandmother was when I was born. In her lifetime she had seen four coronations - I have seen none. (She was upset that she wasn't allowed tro celebrate her fifth birthday the day of Queen Victoria's funeral)
She was six years old before anyone had flown a heavier than air craft - yet during her lifetime people (including her) were flying around in supersonic airliners (and goodness, that hasn't been possible for eighteen years now!)

Would anyone fifty years ago have believed that there would be a time when two thirds of the people who had been to the moon have died? (True but slightly misleading way of putting it, they all got back safely, but next month it will be 49 years since anyone went to the Moon, and of the four still alive the youngest is now 86 years old).
 
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Calthrop

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I am now the same age my grandmother was when I was born. In her lifetime she had seen four coronations - I have seen none. (She was upset that she wasn't allowed tro celebrate her fifth birthday the day of Queen Victoria's funeral)

That seems spoilsport-ish; one would like to think that Vicky wouldn't have begrudged her, her birthday party !

She was six years old before anyone had flown a heavier than air craft - yet during her lifetime people (including her) were flying around in supersonic airliners (and goodness, that hasn't been possible for eighteen years now!)


Would anyone fifty years ago have believed that there would be a time when two thirds of the people who had been to the moon have died? (True but slightly misleading way of putting it, they all got back safely, but next month it will be 49 years since anyone went to the Moon, and of the four still alive the youngest is now 86 years old).

All this kind of stuff, prompts various strange -- and not always sense-making -- reflections. I have always felt regretful that my being born in summer 1948, means that I missed by a little while, being alive-and-on-earth in a time when the Big Four companies held sway, pre-nationalisation. "With head", total awareness that an infant knows nothing about such matters, so the regret is pointless; but one's feelings often have nothing to do with logic and things' making sense.
 

507020

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I doubt we will see the APT … the line has recently been electrified
There should be nothing stopping the APT from running under its own power from Crewe to Rainhill then!
this interestingly piquant fact came to be the case as at this Nov. 25th just gone. Such odd circumstances can come about, in respect of people who live to a great age -- increasingly so, in fact, the older the people concerned become … fascinating fact, can lead one to make calculations on the same principle: on a lesser, and less impressive, scale, but which can still occasion a bit of surprise if this is stuff about which one has basically not thought before.
I like to make calculations based entirely around days like this, for example there were 18067 days from 3 June 1972 to 20 November 2021 when there were no regular train services from Exeter to Okehampton, but all of these are now in the past.

Such calculations are easily done by computers but unfortunately not for dates before 1900 which they can’t calculate. It isn’t helped by the fact that years such as 1700, 1800, 1900 and 2100 aren’t leap years in the Gregorian calendar. This numbering is only able to exist because people have continuously kept track of the date every day for over 2000 years since the birth of Jesus Christ.
I think we can look in almost any book to see what it was like in 1930. I assume you mean 2030!
Do you think that people in 1830 (who other than George Stephenson himself couldn’t even conceive the possibility of a horseless carriage moving on its own all the way from Liverpool to Manchester) could even conceive that the railway that they saw open would still be around even 100 years later, having been through a world war, while a 100 storey building was being built in America, which had only become independent 47 years earlier, let alone that there would still be people here, having been through another world war, thinking about it’s 200th anniversary taking place within the decade and everything that has happened in the intervening years, half of which has taken place during the queen’s lifetime.
As a youngster in the 1980's, WW2 loomed large culturally, but always seemed fairly distant.

But it feels very strange to me that my birth in 1977 is so much closer to WW2 than it is to the current day !
Basil Fawlty’s “Don’t mention the war” in 1975 has been closer to the war itself than to the present day for a number of years now!
I am now the same age my grandmother was when I was born. In her lifetime she had seen four coronations - I have seen none. (She was upset that she wasn't allowed tro celebrate her fifth birthday the day of Queen Victoria's funeral)
She was six years old before anyone had flown a heavier than air craft - yet during her lifetime people (including her) were flying around in supersonic airliners (and goodness, that hasn't been possible for eighteen years now!)

Would anyone fifty years ago have believed that there would be a time when two thirds of the people who had been to the moon have died? (True but slightly misleading way of putting it, they all got back safely, but next month it will be 49 years since anyone went to the Moon, and of the four still alive the youngest is now 86 years old).
In your grandmother’s lifetime she saw 4 coronations - and an abdication! We are getting closer by the day to the next pair of coronations in perhaps quick succession. William and Harry are of course both older now than their mother lived to be.

Most of the people who have visited the moon have now died - of old age after landing back safely from the moon over 48 years and 11 months ago.
All this kind of stuff, prompts various strange -- and not always sense-making -- reflections. I have always felt regretful that my being born in summer 1948, means that I missed by a little while, being alive-and-on-earth in a time when the Big Four companies held sway, pre-nationalisation. "With head", total awareness that an infant knows nothing about such matters, so the regret is pointless; but one's feelings often have nothing to do with logic and things' making sense.
If it makes you feel any better, assuming they started apprenticeships at 16 and retired at 65, although it is likely many started earlier and retired later, there were still staff who had been employed by the original pre-grouping companies working in BR until at least 1971 and from the big 4 until 1996, with a select few perhaps even surviving into privatisation!
 

norbitonflyer

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If it makes you feel any better, assuming they started apprenticeships at 16 and retired at 65, although it is likely many started earlier and retired later, there were still staff who had been employed by the original pre-grouping companies working in BR until at least 1971 and from the big 4 until 1996, with a select few perhaps even surviving into privatisation!

That is probably an underestimate, as old age pensions (at age 70) were not introduced until 1909, and many people started work at younger than 16, so a working life of 55 years was not uncommon. Someone who had worked under Robert Stephenson or Brunel (both died in 1859) could have stayed around long enough (1914) to train someone who would eventually be made redundant by the Beeching cuts and, in turn, his apprentice could still be working today.

For those who hark back to the "Golden Age" of railways, by Christmas the Chiltern Rail franchise (started 21 July 1996) will have existed for longer than either of its predecessors the LNER (1923-1947) or the Great Central Railway (1st August 1897 to 31st Dec 1922)
 

EbbwJunction1

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Well, I was born in 1956, so that makes me 65; take 65 off my birth year, and that takes us to 1891.

It doesn't seem to have been a particularly exciting year - here's what Mr W Pedia has to say: 1891 - Wikipedia. One thing interested me, though:
June 25th - Arthur Conan Doyle's detective Sherlock Holmes appears in The Strand Magazine (London) for the first time, in the issue dated July.
 

Gloster

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If it makes you feel any better, assuming they started apprenticeships at 16 and retired at 65, although it is likely many started earlier and retired later, there were still staff who had been employed by the original pre-grouping companies working in BR until at least 1971 and from the big 4 until 1996, with a select few perhaps even surviving into privatisation!
The Grauniad, I think, did report at the time about a chap working at a station in the Glasgow (?) area who started on the loco with the LNER in 1947 and lasted until the privatisation in Scotland. He presumably would have had a break for National Service.
 

gg1

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The Grauniad, I think, did report at the time about a chap working at a station in the Glasgow (?) area who started on the loco with the LNER in 1947 and lasted until the privatisation in Scotland. He presumably would have had a break for National Service.

Presumably he was born between January and August 1933. Assuming someone started working for the railways when they left compulsory schooling and retired on their 65th birthday, only people born in that 8 month window would have been able to go from big 4 to privatisation.
 

507020

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That is probably an underestimate, as old age pensions (at age 70) were not introduced until 1909, and many people started work at younger than 16, so a working life of 55 years was not uncommon. Someone who had worked under Robert Stephenson or Brunel (both died in 1859) could have stayed around long enough (1914) to train someone who would eventually be made redundant by the Beeching cuts and, in turn, his apprentice could still be working today.

For those who hark back to the "Golden Age" of railways, by Christmas the Chiltern Rail franchise (started 21 July 1996) will have existed for longer than either of its predecessors the LNER (1923-1947) or the Great Central Railway (1st August 1897 to 31st Dec 1922)
I do hope it is an underestimate, but you have an interesting point there. Can we deem either the GCR or LNER to have been as successful as Chiltern Railways when neither survived as long?
Well, I was born in 1956, so that makes me 65; take 65 off my birth year, and that takes us to 1891.

It doesn't seem to have been a particularly exciting year - here's what Mr W Pedia has to say: 1891 - Wikipedia. One thing interested me, though:
June 25th - Arthur Conan Doyle's detective Sherlock Holmes appears in The Strand Magazine (London) for the first time, in the issue dated July.
Any idea which new railways opened in 1891?
Presumably he was born between January and August 1933. Assuming someone started working for the railways when they left compulsory schooling and retired on their 65th birthday, only people born in that 8 month window would have been able to go from big 4 to privatisation.
But it very much was possible for a certain number of people.
 

edwin_m

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Do you think that people in 1830 (who other than George Stephenson himself couldn’t even conceive the possibility of a horseless carriage moving on its own all the way from Liverpool to Manchester) could even conceive that the railway that they saw open would still be around even 100 years later, having been through a world war, while a 100 storey building was being built in America, which had only become independent 47 years earlier, let alone that there would still be people here, having been through another world war, thinking about it’s 200th anniversary taking place within the decade and everything that has happened in the intervening years, half of which has taken place during the queen’s lifetime.
Maybe not in 1830, but within a few years after that there seemed to be an expectation that everywhere needed a railway. Sometimes this was motivated by dividentd to shareholders and in others local businesses promoted the railway, not so much to make a direct profit but to ensure their other interests didn't fall victim to rail-connected competitors. Implicit in either was the assumption that the railway would continue to serve the same role indefinitely.

When these schemes were promoted in the mid-19th century, the short-lived canal era was still in living memory, not to mention much of the industrial revolution. But there seemed to be no expectation that within a similar period going forward, further technological progress would advance road transport enough to threaten the continued viability of many of these rail routes.

Perhaps that's a good thing. If people had known that, many of the railways that remain useful, and have become more so in the last 50 years or so, would never have been built.
 

Rescars

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There should be nothing stopping the APT from running under its own power from Crewe to Rainhill then!

I like to make calculations based entirely around days like this, for example there were 18067 days from 3 June 1972 to 20 November 2021 when there were no regular train services from Exeter to Okehampton, but all of these are now in the past.

Such calculations are easily done by computers but unfortunately not for dates before 1900 which they can’t calculate. It isn’t helped by the fact that years such as 1700, 1800, 1900 and 2100 aren’t leap years in the Gregorian calendar. This numbering is only able to exist because people have continuously kept track of the date every day for over 2000 years since the birth of Jesus Christ.

Do you think that people in 1830 (who other than George Stephenson himself couldn’t even conceive the possibility of a horseless carriage moving on its own all the way from Liverpool to Manchester) could even conceive that the railway that they saw open would still be around even 100 years later, having been through a world war, while a 100 storey building was being built in America, which had only become independent 47 years earlier, let alone that there would still be people here, having been through another world war, thinking about it’s 200th anniversary taking place within the decade and everything that has happened in the intervening years, half of which has taken place during the queen’s lifetime.

Basil Fawlty’s “Don’t mention the war” in 1975 has been closer to the war itself than to the present day for a number of years now!

In your grandmother’s lifetime she saw 4 coronations - and an abdication! We are getting closer by the day to the next pair of coronations in perhaps quick succession. William and Harry are of course both older now than their mother lived to be.

Most of the people who have visited the moon have now died - of old age after landing back safely from the moon over 48 years and 11 months ago.

If it makes you feel any better, assuming they started apprenticeships at 16 and retired at 65, although it is likely many started earlier and retired later, there were still staff who had been employed by the original pre-grouping companies working in BR until at least 1971 and from the big 4 until 1996, with a select few perhaps even surviving into privatisation!
And to stretch the years even further, because some staff of mature years married partners who were much younger, some of the pension schemes of the pre-grouping companies were still paying widows pensions well into the 21st century.
That is probably an underestimate, as old age pensions (at age 70) were not introduced until 1909, and many people started work at younger than 16, so a working life of 55 years was not uncommon. Someone who had worked under Robert Stephenson or Brunel (both died in 1859) could have stayed around long enough (1914) to train someone who would eventually be made redundant by the Beeching cuts and, in turn, his apprentice could still be working today.

For those who hark back to the "Golden Age" of railways, by Christmas the Chiltern Rail franchise (started 21 July 1996) will have existed for longer than either of its predecessors the LNER (1923-1947) or the Great Central Railway (1st August 1897 to 31st Dec 1922)
 

Calthrop

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Do you think that people in 1830 (who other than George Stephenson himself couldn’t even conceive the possibility of a horseless carriage moving on its own all the way from Liverpool to Manchester) could even conceive that the railway that they saw open would still be around even 100 years later, having been through a world war, while a 100 storey building was being built in America, which had only become independent 47 years earlier, let alone that there would still be people here, having been through another world war, thinking about it’s 200th anniversary taking place within the decade and everything that has happened in the intervening years, half of which has taken place during the queen’s lifetime.
Maybe not in 1830, but within a few years after that there seemed to be an expectation that everywhere needed a railway. Sometimes this was motivated by dividentd to shareholders and in others local businesses promoted the railway, not so much to make a direct profit but to ensure their other interests didn't fall victim to rail-connected competitors. Implicit in either was the assumption that the railway would continue to serve the same role indefinitely.

When these schemes were promoted in the mid-19th century, the short-lived canal era was still in living memory, not to mention much of the industrial revolution. But there seemed to be no expectation that within a similar period going forward, further technological progress would advance road transport enough to threaten the continued viability of many of these rail routes.

Perhaps that's a good thing. If people had known that, many of the railways that remain useful, and have become more so in the last 50 years or so, would never have been built.

Revisiting this thread after a couple-plus months: doing so, prompted by a recent chance-happened-on "aside" in a book essentially on a non-rail subject; which comment seems to me interestingly to chime in with the thoughts of two thread participants as quoted above. The book is by Pete Brown, who writes basically on beer and associated topics -- title Shakespeare's Local: about the George Inn in Southwark, the last-surviving example today (surviving physically, only in part) of London's one-time coaching inns. In the late 19th century, the inn's premises came into the ownership of the Great Northern Railway, which made over the majority thereof into office / warehousing / goods handling facilities -- recounting this, leads the author (not, so far as I can tell, a railway enthusiast as such) into a paragraph of railway-related "what-if-ing", as follows.

"It's strange now to think about the complete transformation the railways brought about. From around the 1850s until motorcars became popular in the 1930s, Britain's roads were dead. Imagine if you can what it might be like today if things had continued along this path, if the railway branch lines had remained open and railways had evolved in such a way as to keep their role as the dominant mode of transport. Imagine if light cars and vans were used just for short-distance trips to the station and back, because everyone had a station near them and train travel was quicker and cheaper than road travel could ever be. There would be no motorways, much less pollution, hardly any drink-driving fatalities ... What a wonderful world that would be ! The train may be the villain of our story about the George, but its golden age wasn't much longer than that of the stagecoach."

I feel that the above quote smacks somewhat of hack journalism and its attendant over-simplification; and the author's "what it might be like today" flight of fancy strikes me as implausible unless the internal combustion engine had never come to be (his "light cars and vans" being otherwise powered), or, if feasible, had proved much feebler and less versatile than in fact it was and is -- get the feeling, though, that he does truly like the mental picture which he draws -- his "what a wonderful world ..." is genuine, not ironic.

I find the various quotes in this post, salutary in bringing to mind something which I feel is valid even to those of us who are not aficionados of "alternative-history" speculation and fantasy: that the way in which history has gone, is not necessarily how it ineluctably has to have gone; and that people do not know with certainty, how the future will be (as opposed to the exercise of looking at the past, with the benefit of hindsight) -- they can only speculate and guess, bringing to bear the best information they can as regards patterns of things in past history. @507020's and @edwin_m's musings above, along the lines of people in the early / mid-19th century not necessarily feeling certain that the new railways were likely to be long-lasting -- or that they weren't likely to -- are thought-stimulating.
 

S&CLER

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This thread reminds me of the claim, for which I can't find a source, of someone who once said that the only plus of growing old was that you could brag about having seen/done things that no one would ever see/do again. Plenty of railway possibilities in there.
 

Calthrop

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This thread reminds me of the claim, for which I can't find a source, of someone who once said that the only plus of growing old was that you could brag about having seen/done things that no one would ever see/do again. Plenty of railway possibilities in there.

If only one's listeners were interested in what one brags about; but with the way that life and humankind are -- most often, they couldn't care less :E.
 

Calthrop

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My birthday is closer to the battle of Tel-El-Kebir than it is to today.

I knew naught of Tel-el-Kebir; had to look it up -- but if, as per posts above, bragging is the scene: mine is closer to the battle of the Little Big Horn, than it is to today !
 
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