The proposed Eden Project North at Morecambe

[childwallblues]

Lancaster City Council have approved plans to build this £117 million project subject to the Government putting money in. The public is likely to flock to this project when it opens. Trains to Morecambe are currentlly served by a shuttle from Lancaster and a few through trains from Leeds.
My thoughts are that the four mile branch should be electrified and services should be restored to Preston, Manchester and Liverpool.

 

[Glenn1969]

Lancaster City Council have approved plans to build this £117 million project subject to the Government putting money in. The public is likely to flock to this project when it opens. Trains to Morecambe are currentlly served by a shuttle from Lancaster and a few through trains from Leeds.
My thoughts are that the four mile branch should be electrified and services should be restored to Preston, Manchester and Liverpool.

But will the Government give it the funding?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Lancaster City Council have approved plans to build this £117 million project subject to the Government putting money in. The public is likely to flock to this project when it opens. Trains to Morecambe are currentlly served by a shuttle from Lancaster and a few through trains from Leeds.
My thoughts are that the four mile branch should be electrified and services should be restored to Preston, Manchester and Liverpool.

Why??

 

[driver9000]

Better utilisation of the park and ride site at Junction 34 of the M6 is being touted as the way to bring visitors into the town. Talk of some improvements to the rail service has also been mentioned but no form details have been released.

 

[yorksrob]

The station is also pretty well sited for the project.

 

[muddythefish]

Why??

The Eden Project in Cornwall attracted more than 1m visitors in 2019, before the pandemic. If Morecambe attracts anything like the the same number it's not unreasonable top expect many of them to travel by train

The station is well situated on the sea front and will be near the project. This is a huge thing for a struggling town like Morecambe. Investing in better rail facilities with this development is a no-brainer really

 

[6Gman]

The station is also pretty well sited for the project.

Walking distance I would say for most people. But I doubt it will transform rail access. Might build a case for a few facilities at the station (my recollection from my last visit was of a bare platform - local pun there!); might justify a modest platform extension if needed.

Just for context pre-Covid Chester Zoo was around 1.8 - 2 million per annum and the proportion arriving by public transport was low despite good bus links from Chester station. Eden might attract a slightly different demographic (older and possibly more couples, fewer groups) but realistically I don't see it justifying more than upping the service from (say) 2 car to 4 car and - perhaps - a few through links.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Better utilisation of the park and ride site at Junction 34 of the M6 is being touted as the way to bring visitors into the town. Talk of some improvements to the rail service has also been mentioned but no form details have been released.

I do wonder why they didn't push for electrification of the line, with this levelling up and climate emergency and whatnot.

 

[Glenn1969]

I do wonder why they didn't push for electrification of the line, with this levelling up and climate emergency and whatnot.

The planning approval is subject to some funding from Government. Will that definitely happen in time for a 2024 opening and if so should it be used to boost the transport infrastructure ?

 

[Bald Rick]

My thoughts are that the four mile branch should be electrified and services should be restored to Preston, Manchester and Liverpool.

I agree that’s desirable; if it does attract 1m visitors, and even if 20% of them travelled by train, thats 600 a day; revenue not to be sniffed at. Slight difficulty is that Preston has limited spare capacity. So to do this would mean doing it in preference to reopening to Fleetwood, or doubling the service on the Blackpool South line, or diverting services that currently go to Blackpool, Barrow or Windermere to serve it.

Personally I‘d do it in preference to Fleetwood - likely more passengers, paying higher fares, for little or no infrastructure costs.

 

[HSTEd]

Wait, wasn't this project associated with a cableway at some point?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wait, wasn't this project associated with a cableway at some point?

It was, and it was a stupid idea which has fortunately gone away. The plan is for a combination of parking on site and (most probably electric) bus P&R, presumably from the existing M6 park and ride site which is I believe significantly underused. It's worth noting that this is very much a family attraction, and a family in a fully loaded average family car, ideally an EV, is an efficient use of roadspace and environmentally efficient, so there are no strong grounds to discourage this, though Morecambe doesn't have the same amount of spare land as Blackpool to give over to huge amounts of street parking.

With regard to the branch, I'd have it as a simple shuttle, but look to improve it to half-hourly clockface* with decent capacity stock, ideally battery (or wire it if it can just be strung off the WCML at low cost), I'd go for "Bay Metro" branding and livery the trains up with local pictures etc. If battery 230s are more reliable than diesel ones, it would have a good case for a couple of three-car sets of these with LU style standee interiors.

What I'd really love to see would be an electric tram from the P&R site through Green Ayre and the old line into Morecambe but the cost would be prohibitive.

* This might need to involve withdrawal of the Heysham extensions (though the line would remain for nuclear traffic), but I'm not sure that would be a great issue, a bus would do the job just fine. Or keep the Heyshams as well as occasional extensions of Bentham Line trains.

But will the Government give it the funding?

I do hope so. The regeneration potential of what is quite a poor town* is massive. You can tell how important it is seen locally - normally you'll get at least some NIMBYs for a project like this (and Lancaster/Morecambe have their fair share of NIMBYs, especially when it comes to student accommodation), but if you read the Lancaster press's FB pages you will not see *one single* objection.

* Blackpool is poor too, to be fair, but manages to muddle along on high volume, minimum wage type jobs supporting the Pleasure Beach and stag/hen do industry. Morecambe doesn't have that so does a fair bit worse.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I agree that’s desirable; if it does attract 1m visitors, and even if 20% of them travelled by train, thats 600 a day; revenue not to be sniffed at. Slight difficulty is that Preston has limited spare capacity. So to do this would mean doing it in preference to reopening to Fleetwood, or doubling the service on the Blackpool South line, or diverting services that currently go to Blackpool, Barrow or Windermere to serve it.

Personally I‘d do it in preference to Fleetwood - likely more passengers, paying higher fares, for little or no infrastructure costs.

So on average just over 20 per train (assuming uniform distribution which won’t be the case but the figure gives a rough idea). Not exactly numbers that will overwhelm Lancaster if they need to change there. Realistically I would suggest increasing train lengths from 2 to 3 carriages should be investigated instead of rather fanciful ideas of electrification or introducing direct services to far and wide.

 

[muddythefish]

So on average just over 20 per train (assuming uniform distribution which won’t be the case but the figure gives a rough idea). Not exactly numbers that will overwhelm Lancaster if they need to change there. Realistically I would suggest increasing train lengths from 2 to 3 carriages should be investigated instead of rather fanciful ideas of electrification or introducing direct services to far and wide.

Such limited ambition!

This project is huge for Morecambe and the northwest as a whole. It really is a game-changer for a town that has struggled for decades

If the government is serious about levelling up, (questionable I know), electrification and direct trains from Manchester / Preston are the least that ought to be provided.

 

[muddythefish]

I agree that’s desirable; if it does attract 1m visitors, and even if 20% of them travelled by train, thats 600 a day; revenue not to be sniffed at. Slight difficulty is that Preston has limited spare capacity. So to do this would mean doing it in preference to reopening to Fleetwood, or doubling the service on the Blackpool South line, or diverting services that currently go to Blackpool, Barrow or Windermere to serve it.

Personally I‘d do it in preference to Fleetwood - likely more passengers, paying higher fares, for little or no infrastructure costs.

That's a rare thumbs-up for a rail proposal from you! I'm quite excited now that it might have a chance

 

[Bletchleyite]

Such limited ambition!

This project is huge for Morecambe and the northwest as a whole. It really is a game-changer for a town that has struggled for decades

If the government is serious about levelling up, (questionable I know), electrification and direct trains from Manchester / Preston are the least that ought to be provided.

One option would be to wire it off the WCML and send the Manchester Airport-Barrow there instead of Barrow, thus removing another DMU from under the wires (Barrow would then run from Lancaster only, but as an hourly clockface service all the way round the coast rather than the bitty service at present). However it would be rather political...

I do think overall I prefer the "Bay Metro" idea of keeping it a shuttle but considerably upgrading it. People will come from lots of places anyway, and they cope with the similar situation in Windsor.

 

[Bald Rick]

So on average just over 20 per train (assuming uniform distribution which won’t be the case but the figure gives a rough idea). Not exactly numbers that will overwhelm Lancaster if they need to change there. Realistically I would suggest increasing train lengths from 2 to 3 carriages should be investigated instead of rather fanciful ideas of electrification or introducing direct services to far and wide.

I agree to an extent. The traffic patterns from the transport assessment show a spread of passengers through the day, on top of c300 daily employees there (most of whom, one assumes, will come from Morecambe or Heysham).

I think electrification is a step too far - it would be perfect for batteries - but I wouldn’t rule out a direct service from, say, Manchester or Liverpool. But definitely not both.

 

[yorksrob]

It was, and it was a stupid idea which has fortunately gone away. The plan is for a combination of parking on site and (most probably electric) bus P&R, presumably from the existing M6 park and ride site which is I believe significantly underused. It's worth noting that this is very much a family attraction, and a family in a fully loaded average family car, ideally an EV, is an efficient use of roadspace and environmentally efficient, so there are no strong grounds to discourage this, though Morecambe doesn't have the same amount of spare land as Blackpool to give over to huge amounts of street parking.

With regard to the branch, I'd have it as a simple shuttle, but look to improve it to half-hourly clockface* with decent capacity stock, ideally battery (or wire it if it can just be strung off the WCML at low cost), I'd go for "Bay Metro" branding and livery the trains up with local pictures etc. If battery 230s are more reliable than diesel ones, it would have a good case for a couple of three-car sets of these with LU style standee interiors.

What I'd really love to see would be an electric tram from the P&R site through Green Ayre and the old line into Morecambe but the cost would be prohibitive.

* This might need to involve withdrawal of the Heysham extensions (though the line would remain for nuclear traffic), but I'm not sure that would be a great issue, a bus would do the job just fine. Or keep the Heyshams as well as occasional extensions of Bentham Line trains.



I do hope so. The regeneration potential of what is quite a poor town* is massive. You can tell how important it is seen locally - normally you'll get at least some NIMBYs for a project like this (and Lancaster/Morecambe have their fair share of NIMBYs, especially when it comes to student accommodation), but if you read the Lancaster press's FB pages you will not see *one single* objection.

* Blackpool is poor too, to be fair, but manages to muddle along on high volume, minimum wage type jobs supporting the Pleasure Beach and stag/hen do industry. Morecambe doesn't have that so does a fair bit worse.

And if our Northern operators and their treasury handlers had the commercial acumen to introduce some sort of group save offer, the railway would be better off to take advantage of that family market.

Fat chance of that though.

I agree to an extent. The traffic patterns from the transport assessment show a spread of passengers through the day, on top of c300 daily employees there (most of whom, one assumes, will come from Morecambe or Heysham).

I think electrification is a step too far - it would be perfect for batteries - but I wouldn’t rule out a direct service from, say, Manchester or Liverpool. But definitely not both.

If you've got a direct service from either of those two, electrify and be done. You can then also electrify any shuttles from Lancaster.

I agree that’s desirable; if it does attract 1m visitors, and even if 20% of them travelled by train, thats 600 a day; revenue not to be sniffed at. Slight difficulty is that Preston has limited spare capacity. So to do this would mean doing it in preference to reopening to Fleetwood, or doubling the service on the Blackpool South line, or diverting services that currently go to Blackpool, Barrow or Windermere to serve it.

Personally I‘d do it in preference to Fleetwood - likely more passengers, paying higher fares, for little or no infrastructure costs.

Or rejuvenate the mail platform (at Preston) as was done at Leeds some decades ago.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'd have it as a simple shuttle, but look to improve it to half-hourly clockface

This. Sort out the trains to Morecambe, then go on from there. Like Barrow and Windermere the current DMU all the way for an unwired tail needs sorting out. Lancaster-Leeds is similar though a longer non-electrified section and the fact that Morecambe is tagged on to Leeds trains is an anachronism dating back to wakes weeks in West Yorkshire and the Midland Railway one assumes. When there is a rolling stock plan the rest will fall in to place (well almost).

E&OE of course.

 

[childwallblues]

The Eden Project in Cornwall attracted more than 1m visitors in 2019, before the pandemic. If Morecambe attracts anything like the the same number it's not unreasonable top expect many of them to travel by train

The station is well situated on the sea front and will be near the project. This is a huge thing for a struggling town like Morecambe. Investing in better rail facilities Uwith this development is a no-brainer rea

The station on the sea front was closed many years ago and the replacement is 400 yards further inland.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The station on the sea front was closed many years ago and the replacement is 400 yards further inland.

To be fair, this puts it quite a lot closer to both the town centre (shopping area) and to the Eden Project site* than it was (albeit via a less pleasant walk up a road rather than along the prom). The old station was not hugely better situated than Blackpool South.

However, the current station is basic and very scruffy, so a rebuild with a better look would be desirable.

* By the war memorial on a site which is presently just an "amphitheatre" and little else - took me a long time to find that!

 

[A0wen]

Lancaster City Council have approved plans to build this £117 million project subject to the Government putting money in. The public is likely to flock to this project when it opens. Trains to Morecambe are currentlly served by a shuttle from Lancaster and a few through trains from Leeds.
My thoughts are that the four mile branch should be electrified and services should be restored to Preston, Manchester and Liverpool.

I think you're overstating the claim that "The public is likely to flock to this project when it opens."

The Eden Project in Cornwall according to Association of Leading Visitor Attractions was # 35 with about 1 million visitors in 2019 (the last pre-Covid year).

ALVA | Association of Leading Visitor Attractions

The members of ALVA are the UK's most popular, iconic and important museums, galleries, palaces, castles, cathedrals, zoos, historic houses, heritage sites, gardens and leisure attractions.

www.alva.org.uk

Bearing in mind that's in Cornwall which is more of a tourist destination than Morecambe.

Even if 20% of that number travelled by train (ambitious) you're looking at under 300 people a day. (1m / 364 (number of days open a year) / 5 (to get 20%).

 

[AM9]

If you've got a direct service from either of those two, electrify and be done. You can then also electrify any shuttles from Lancaster.

Although the case might not be as good as it could, the fact that it was electrified until as recent as 1966* should mean that the bridge clearances are generally OK, - often the last weapon to spike any efforts to put wires up.

* Although that was the experimental 6.25kV 50Hz installation (and 6.5kV 25Hz since LNWR days), as the conversion from 6.25kV to full 25kV on the GEML Glasgow lines and Manchester approaches, was completed with minimal new civils work other than OLE components.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bearing in mind that's in Cornwall which is more of a tourist destination than Morecambe.

Morecambe is a different type of tourist destination to rural Cornwall, though - it is and probably always will be more of a day-trip destination, either a day-trip from the nearby North West cities, for locals from Lancaster* or as a stop-off on the way to/from the Lakes from down South. It is more comparable to Southport than Cornwall.

Obviously those stopping off will do so by car, and provided the security is good enough the M6 P&R will suit those people well. The railway isn't in a position to provide P&R because you specifically don't want that traffic in central Lancaster which is already horribly congested, and Bare is a residential area that doesn't want it either.

However, attracting day-trip traffic by train from the North West cities (and to a lesser extent Leeds) would be a positive thing to do, possibly involving some sort of all-inclusive "train plus attraction" ticketing, or the 2-for-1 thing you get/got in London.

* Before anyone says "but locals will use the bus", in my observation the train is mostly used by locals and people by and large aren't connecting onto other services.

 

[A0wen]

Morecambe is a different type of tourist destination to rural Cornwall, though - it is and probably always will be more of a day-trip destination, either a day-trip from the nearby North West cities, for locals from Lancaster* or as a stop-off on the way to/from the Lakes from down South. It is more comparable to Southport than Cornwall.

Obviously those stopping off will do so by car, and provided the security is good enough the M6 P&R will suit those people well. The railway isn't in a position to provide P&R because you specifically don't want that traffic in central Lancaster which is already horribly congested, and Bare is a residential area that doesn't want it either.

However, attracting day-trip traffic by train from the North West cities (and to a lesser extent Leeds) would be a positive thing to do, possibly involving some sort of all-inclusive "train plus attraction" ticketing, or the 2-for-1 thing you get/got in London.

* Before anyone says "but locals will use the bus", in my observation the train is mostly used by locals and people by and large aren't connecting onto other services.

I don't disagree that it will be more "day visitors" than those staying in the area - in which case I suspect the 1m that Eden Project Cornwall sees is probably far too optimistic.

So looking over ALVA's list again for a comparison - you can discount anything in London / Edinburgh / Stratford on Avon etc because you'll have a high number of visitors both domestic and international visiting those cities and covering a number of attractions. Whereas this will be more domestic visitors.

I'd look more at somewhere like Whipsnade Zoo - which gets about 650,000 visitors a year - accessible from Herts / Beds / Bucks / Northants / Oxon (populations 1.2m, 700k, 800k, 750k, 700k respectively - so a total of ~4.2 m in close proximity. If you look at the NW Cities (so Manchester & Liverpool) plus Lancs you have a similar population (2.8m, 1.4m, 1.4m) - so 5.8m.

Given the NW motorway network is generally quieter than that in the South East (yes, I've driven both the M25 and M60 in rush hour) if you live in Bury or Blackburn or Wigan or Altrincham there's little to be gained by taking the train as opposed to driving it.

 

[muddythefish]

Morecambe is a different type of tourist destination to rural Cornwall, though - it is and probably always will be more of a day-trip destination, either a day-trip from the nearby North West cities, for locals from Lancaster* or as a stop-off on the way to/from the Lakes from down South. It is more comparable to Southport than Cornwall.

Yes, agree. The population of the the north west is 7.3m according to 2019 figures, all within about an hour of Morecambe. Plus Eden North will attract visitors from Yorkshire, the north east and Scotland., There's good reason to suggest it will attract well in excess of the 1m who visited Eden Cornwall in 2019

 

[muddythefish]

I think electrification is a step too far - it would be perfect for batteries - but I wouldn’t rule out a direct service from, say, Manchester or Liverpool. But definitely not both.

Why not do it properly and do both? It's only a short branch line

 

[SJL2020]

As I understand it, the business plan for the project is predicated on an average of 760,000 visitors per annum. There is often a 'honeymoon' effect with new visitor attractions where the numbers are boosted in the first couple of years after opening: that is where the 1m visitors 'maximum' figure might have come from.

One interesting thing about the Cornwall project is that it took a few years for the vegetation in the domes to become fully established. It's interesting to go back every few years to see how things are developing and changing.

 

[yorksrob]

Although the case might not be as good as it could, the fact that it was electrified until as recent as 1966* should mean that the bridge clearances are generally OK, - often the last weapon to spike any efforts to put wires up.

* Although that was the experimental 6.25kV 50Hz installation (and 6.5kV 25Hz since LNWR days), as the conversion from 6.25kV to full 25kV on the GEML Glasgow lines and Manchester approaches, was completed with minimal new civils work other than OLE components.

I think that that was the slightly different route from Green Ayre, however I don't think there are many overbroad on the current route anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think that that was the slightly different route from Green Ayre, however I don't think there are many overbroad on the current route anyway.

It's a totally different route, which is now a cycle path (but where I suggested a tram from the P&R would be quite cool if too expensive). The "Greyhound Bridge", now a road bridge, is part of it.

The only commonality of route between that and the current route was about 1km at the Morecambe end.